im confused..would it be anti-gentile? help me out here guys

reply to post by SyphonX

Something doesn't add up for me. How do Jews claim sole control over an entire multi-cultural title?

Do you have any proof that says that the Jews went out of their way to "steal" a racial title? Could it not be that people that aren't Jewish just started applying the term to those who are Jewish because the majority of Semites that they would've encountered would've been Jewish?

reply to post by octotom


Do you have any proof they did not?

reply to post by December_Rain


I don't feel the burden is on me as the person that I responded to made the original accusation.

reply to post by octotom


I was making a pun about the "ish" part.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that they are converts from the Khazar Empire in 740 A.D and not of Shemetic decent.

Jews call themselves that because they wish they were from the tribe of Judah.

Similar to if a Indian man converted to Buddhism, and started calling himself Chinese, that would be ridiculous.

The term Jew wasn't around till the 1500's.

There are many books on this subject.

www.fantompowa.info... 13th tribe is one of the good ones.

Written by Jewish scholar Arthur Koestler

[edit on 30-11-2009 by buds84]

reply to post by buds84


Maybe the modern English term until the 1500s, but even back in biblical times those from Judah and things from Judah were referred to as Jews/jewish.

Here is the first usage of the word "Jew" in the Bible. It's from 2 Kings 25:25, which comes quite some time before Christ. So there definitely was a term, being used in Hebrew long before the 1500s.

But in the seventh month, Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, son of Elishama, of the royal family, came with ten men and struck down Gedaliah and put him to death along with the Jews and the Chaldeans who were with him at Mizpah.

reply to post by December_Rain


I just found this on Wiki. Of course not the end all of knowledge, but I think it gives a good summary of the etymology of the word antisemitic.

Basically, the term was first used by an Austrian Jewish scholar when he was critiquing a work of Ernest Renan, in which Renan said that Semitic peoples were inferior to Aryans. Later, as Jewish hatred was spreading across Europe, authors started using the terms "Semitic" and "Jewish/jewry" interchangeably. Later one author, Wilhelm Marr, wrote a work entitled, The Way to Victory of the Germanic Spirit over the Jewish Spirit. In this work, he used the word "antisemitic" in how to deal with the Jews. This led to the establishment of groups outwardly calling themselves antisemites and whose goal was to combat the threat of jewishness on German culture.

So, it would seem that the Jews didn't steal "antisemitic" for themselves. Rather, the Germans started using the term interchangeably with Jewish and it just kinda stuck.

Originally posted by buds84
that doesn't take away from the fact that they are converts from the Khazar Empire in 740 A.D and not of Shemetic decent.

Jews call themselves that because they wish they were from the tribe of Judah.

Similar to if a Indian man converted to Buddhism, and started calling himself Chinese, that would be ridiculous.

The term Jew wasn't around till the 1500's.

There are many books on this subject.

Ridiculous is a good word.

Your favourite Hate sites and neo-Nazi Library may make these claims. But you're not interested in things like actual information, truth, facts.

An ATS Moderator debunked this BS totally on this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

.... I've noticed accusations that today's Jews (American, European, and Israeli) are not 'real Jews' but are instead descendants of Khazarian Jewish converts. This claim is typically offered as a reason why Jews currently inhabiting the state of Israel have no legitimate ancestral claim to the land.

My intent with this thread is to debunk such an accusation.

A Very Brief History

After suffering persecution in Persia, Byzantium, and various Islamic nations, many Jews fled to Khazaria (1, 2) for safety. The Khazars and Jews enjoyed a diplomatic relationship and eventually Khazarian nobility converted to Judaism around the 8th-9th century A.D. Some historians believe their subjects later converted to Judaism as well, although the extent of conversion is debated and evidence exists to verify a range of figures. Kharzars held a diverse range of religions including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, and various pagan beliefs. Although evidence certainly points to some Khazars holding Jewish beliefs, they were not all converts to Judaism.

The Conspiracy Begins

Fast forward to the 19th century. French Philosopher Ernest Renan appears to be responsible for starting the conspiracy theory in his book Judaism as a Race and as Religion. He puts forth the claim Ashkenazic Jews are descended from Khazarian converts and the line of Japheth and not 'pure blood' Semitic Jews descended from Shem and Abraham. Slowly but surely the theory began to spread in popularity and was ultimately popularized in the 20th century by the well known racial theorist Lothrop Stoddard.

Several more authors picked up and propagated the myth throughout the 20th century to the point the accusation became wide spread and well known. The theory is now very popular with various anti-semitic and anti-Zionist organizations and is mostly used to negate Israel's purpose of existence.

Debunking the Accusation Using DNA Evidence

The evidence is by far on the side of those seeking to refute the allegation that Ashkenazic are not 'real' Jews. Science and DNA evidence confirms common, semitic ancestry:

Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora.

Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes

And:

With a new technique based on the male or Y chromosome, biologists have traced the diaspora of Jewish populations from the dispersals that began in 586 B.C. to the modern communities of Europe and the Middle East.

The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries.

Another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago.

[Snip]

Despite the Ashkenazi Jews' long residence in Europe, their Y signature has remained distinct from that of non-Jewish Europeans.

Y Chromosome Bears Witness to Story of the Jewish Diaspora

Religious Support

Those who continue to push forth the theory that Ashkenazi Jews are not 'real Jews' also display a gross ignorance of the Jewish religion concerning the treatment and acceptance of converts. This is either ignored or unknown by those who make the accusation. Although we can see above DNA evidence vindicates modern Jews, even if by some chance they were not ancestrally related, the fact remains in Judaism a convert is treated with the utmost respect and, according to Jewish Law, no differentiation is made between a 'biological,' if you will, Jew and a Jewish convert.

Even some famous Biblical characters, one example being Ruth, an ancestor of King David, were converts to the faith and not born into it as a descendant of Abraham. A Jew is a Jew either through heritage or conversion so this accusation is negated.

Historical Support

As I mention above, the statistics regarding the Khazarian conversion is a hotly debated topic. For the sake of intellectual honesty, I will say that in some cases there is historical support to confirm a a large amount of converts. However, this still poses no problem to Israel's right to exist or its current citizens of being 'Real Jews.' There were conversions as well as a mixing of the cultures but the scientific evidence above proves the bloodline retained its integrity. History, biology, and archeology also prove not all Khazarians became Ashkenazi Jews and not all Ashkenazi Jews were Khazarian. Although many did convert to Judaism, many Kharzarians still held a diverse range of religious beliefs.

Conclusion

In light of all evidence, most scholars and historians have rejected or abandoned the conspiracy theory altogether. The remaining proponents of the theory generally consist of various groups and organizations seeking to undermine Israel's sovereignty, its citizens right to the land, and to propagate anti-semitic information.

You'll often find this information still being presented without any actual facts to back it up on anti-semitic websites like Stormfront, Jew Watch, etc.

The fact remains, this claim simply is not factual and all evidence points to this conspiracy theory being false.

reply to post by mmiichael


Sorry but just because an ATS mod tried to debunk something and failed horribly doesn't mean anything.

You should go research yourself instead of taking that Mod seriously.
Her entire post is based on opinion.

There have been many Jewish scholars and others admitting and writing books on Khazar Jews.

btw there were no DNA tests back in biblical times so trying to trace Biblical Israelites by DNA testing not logical.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by buds84]

Things I have learned:

Always remember to check with someone about their religious preference before criticizing them on thoughts or actions related or unrelated to religion.

If you do not check with them, you risk criticizing someone who is of a certain religion or country that allows no criticism. This action will most likely result in being labeled a "Neo-nazi", promoting "hate speech".

Anti-Semite = A slanderous word used to generalize people who disagree with a certain group of people.

Israel says "no criticism allowed.

..............and send more tanks and 'aid'."


peace out

reply to post by buds84

btw there were no DNA tests back in biblical times so trying to trace Biblical Israelites by DNA testing not logical.

I think that you missed the point of the genealogical argument. Basically, the case is that, if the Jews that are in Israel today are truly descended from those in the Middle East, they would have shared traits with other modern peoples with Middle Eastern roots; i.e. the Arabs. If those claiming to be Jews weren't, they wouldn't share these traits. As it would be, Jews and Arabs share a genealogical trait that is common only to those with Middle Eastern ancestry.

I think people ignore the fact that ALL Arabs are Semitic but only 10% of persons who style themselves as 'Jews' today are of any mixed-Semitic extraction (most call themselves Sefardim, from the word for 'Spain, but there are at least 100,000 persons still alive today who are non-Sephardic Shemitic 'Jews' in various and sundry places e.g. Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco etc.

The other 90% of persons who style themselves 'Jews' are of mixed Turko-Ukranian ancestry (Khazarian Ukranian Proselytes who lived around Kiev and who were originally poagan-white-gentiles who had converted from phallus sun worship to Judaeism in the 9th to 11th centuries AD (i.e. in the middle ages) as a political solution to being hemmed in with the Byzantine Christians on the West and Muslim armies on the East (they chose the Bava Metzia, the Middle Gate, i.e. the religion common to BOTH of their neighbours as a political-religious solution--which meant they could sell to both camps !)

These highly successful trader-Khazarians came in two racial colourings, the lighter skinned, brown to light-brown-blonde hair, and the darker skinned-black hair Khazarians) , at least genetically, who have mixed blood in with their host countries ( After 1003 CE, the Russians chased the Khazars west into Europe where they became known as the Ashkenazim - i.e. converted Gentile Proselyte Jews--having changed their names from e.g. Vladmir and Olga to 'Jewish' names like Abraham and Sarah.

Hungarian Khazars mixed with Finno-Hungarians, Lithuanian Khazars mixed in with the local Luthuanians, French Khazars mixed in with the French Celtic/Gallic tribal bloodlines &tc. so you don't have anything like a race among the Ashkenzim any more---there is a large genetic variation between many Ashkenazim today. But the Ashkenazim (the majority of world Jewry today) are actually...NON-Semitic in terms of actual blood line

Which is why so few of them take genetic scanning tests and dare to publish the results.

So to claim some goy is an ANTI-Semite because e.g. he criticises the economic starvation of the local Palestininan Population say in Gaza, is a misnomer.

To speak out against an Arab, (and I don't see many words coined to reflect that act) would technically mean that you are making an AntiSemitic statement since ALL Arabs are by definition Semitic (i.e. racially descended from a common lineage, aka the legendary bibilical Shem), whereas barley 10% of the socalled Jewish population in the world today have any Shemitic blood in them at all---90% of them are basically Ukranian Turkish converts to Judaeism.

Any Ashkenaz who styles himself a Semitic jew and believes himself to be physically descended from one of the so called 12 tribes of Yisro'el,(whose names dont even match each other, read Judges chapter 5:2-31, the socalled Song of Deborah - the very oldest paleo Hebrew in the Bible, where a whole different list of 12 Tribes is named including the Tribes of Machir, Gilead and Meroz where Gad and Judah &tc. are missing altogether ! ) and he will show himself quite ignorant of his own history i.e. the Khazarian conversions during the years 780-980 CE which was a shock to manyh of the Rebbes who discovered this back in 1897 examining like Solomon Shechter of Cambridge when he pored over the origiinal Khazarian letters found in the Ben Ezra Synagogue Attic in Cairo

Read: The Thirteenth Tribe by respected Ashkenazi professor Arthur Koestler :

LINK www.christusrex.org...

At any rate, all this BS defence about 'antiSemitism' needs to stop; the goyim ('gentiles' whom even 'Jesus' referred to as 'dogs under the table begging for scraps from the children of the Kingdom' in Matthew 12:20-25) need to coin their own word: AntiGentilism, an act which should likewise be villified in the e.g. (especially) American press...

[edit on 30-11-2009 by Sigismundus]

What happened in this period is that the people formerly known for centuries as the Khazars became known simply as 'Jews' and their true origin was lost. In its place their leaders sold to them - and the rest of the world - a false history. This was the belief that they were the Biblical Jews and the fallacy continues to this day with devastating consequences for peace in the Middle East. The Khazar 'Jews' were confined to ghettos as a result of Papal dictat in the mid-16th century and this, together with the 17th century Cossack (ironically) massacres in the Ukraine, led to another mass exodus into Hungary, Bohemia, Rumania and Germany. There were hardly any Jews in Germany until this time. "Thus the great trek to the West was resumed," says Koestler, "It was to continue through nearly three centuries until the Second World War, and became the principle source of the existing Jewish communities in Europe, the United States, and Israel." So what does all this mean for the official history of the Jewish people? Koestler, who was himself born in Budapest, writes:

[It] would mean that their ancestors came not from the Jordan, but from the Volga, not from Canaan but from the Caucasus, once believed to be the cradle of the Aryan race; and that genetically they are more closely connected to the Hun, Uigur and Magyar tribes than to the seed of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Should this turn out to be the case, then the term 'anti-Semitism' would be void of meaning, based on a misapprehension shared by both the killers and their victims. The story of the Khazar Empire, as it slowly emerges from the past, begins to look like the most cruel hoax which history has ever perpetrated.

Benjamin H. Freedman was a one-time Jewish businessman in New York and a long-time 'insider' before speaking out vociferously against Zionism after World War Two. He was personally acquainted with leading American political figures like Bernard Baruch, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy and John F. Kennedy. Freedman went much further in his assessment of the Khazar revelation:

What are the facts about the Jews? (I call them Jews to you, because they are known as Jews. I don't call them Jews myself. I refer to them as so-called Jews, because I know what they are.) ... There wasn't one of them [the Khazars] who had an ancestor who ever put a toe in the Holy Land. Not only in Old Testament history, but back to the beginning of time. Not one of them! And yet they come to the Christians and ask us to support their armed insurrections in Palestine by saying, 'You want to help repatriate God's Chosen People to their Promised Land, their ancestral home, don't you? It's your Christian duty. We gave you one of our boys as your Lord and Saviour ... It is as ridiculous to call them 'people of the Holy Land,' as it would be to call the 54 million Chinese Moslems 'Arabs' ..."

The former Khazar people are known as the Ashkenazi Jews (plural Ashkenazim) and some writers estimate that perhaps 90% to 95% of those calling themselves 'Jewish' worldwide are ancestors of the Khazars. Others are known as Sephardic Jews and they do have an historical connection to the Middle East, although even then the idea of a 'chosen race' going back to Biblical Israel still doesn't stand up, as we shall see. The Ashkenazim ('Khazars') are actually the minority in Israel itself, but they hold the reins of power and have always done so since the country was created in 1948. The name Ashkenazi is said by some to originate from Ashkenaz, the Hebrew word for Germany. In fact, the Bible refers to the ashkenaz as a people living in the region of Mount Ararat (now Turkey) and Armenia. That would certainly fit the basic location of the Khazars... The Ashkenazi as a people did not speak the Semitic language of Hebrew, which is no surprise at all because they are not Hebrews. They developed their own tongue called Yiddish...[which] did not come from Israel.