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New Quantum Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime

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posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 09:46 AM
December 09
Splitting Time from Space—New Quantum Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime

Buzz about a quantum gravity theory that sends space and time back to their Newtonian roots

Was Newton right and Einstein wrong? It seems that unzipping the fabric of spacetime and harking back to 19th-century notions of time could lead to a theory of quantum gravity.

Physicists have struggled to marry quantum mechanics with gravity for decades. In contrast, the other forces of nature have obediently fallen into line. For instance, the electromagnetic force can be described quantum-mechanically by the motion of photons. Try and work out the gravitational force between two objects in terms of a quantum graviton, however, and you quickly run into trouble—the answer to every calculation is infinity. But now Petr Hořava, a physicist at the University of California, Berkeley, thinks he understands the problem. It’s all, he says, a matter of time.

More specifically, the problem is the way that time is tied up with space in Einstein’s theory of gravity: general relativity. Einstein famously overturned the Newtonian notion that time is absolute—steadily ticking away in the background.

Eclipsing Einstein? A solar eclipse confirmed gravitational lensing and Einstein's concept of spacetime. But a new quantum gravity theory now generating excitement separates time and space

With todays technology anything is possible, I would like to see more on this theory.

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 11:28 AM
Very interesting.

I only wish the journalist hadn't used the tired old Newton vs. Einstein stance.
What it does is bring back to the table the old question of "hidden variables".

It would help if physicists looked around and took into account other novel theories in physics, not necessary directly related to their narrow field of expertise (such as the recently proposed theory about "quantum amnesia").
Some do, of course, but not nearly enough of them.

One thing seems clear: our modern Western "cosmology" is nowhere near a complete - or even particularly accurate - picture. Which is all the more reason to proceed with caution and intellectual honesty when presenting mere theories (about the universe and life in general) as - "facts".

But that's yarn for a different thread...

[edit on 29-11-2009 by Vanitas]

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 12:24 PM
Newton's theories on the macro are very applicable. On the mico, not at all. I would assert that "reality" is very much different than either Newton of Einstein would have guessed.

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 12:34 PM
reply to post by Vanitas

[guote]It would help if physicists looked around and took into account other novel theories in physics, not necessary directly related to their narrow field of expertise (such as the recently proposed theory about "quantum amnesia".
Some do, of course, but not nearly enough of them.

The culture of science has failed and closed to healthy inquirement, the scientific method consist of only six axioms based solely on mathematics, these theories cannot be proved because they are not repeatable and put on the shelf.

[edit on 29-11-2009 by Aquarius1]

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 12:52 PM
Well, first off, Einstein was probably wrong on some levels, just as Newton was wrong on some levels. Each step we take brings us closer to figureing things out, though, so I would never fault any scientific discovery.

Another interest prmise that I have heard quoted before about overturning old theories is that if the old theory has been technically proven with real scientific experiments, then any new theory must also prove and exceed those experiments before it can be considered valid. Interesting how science, to some degree, has built in quality controls.

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 05:49 PM
For things at low speeds, you need Newton. So, if you are playing pool, you are fine with Newton.

For things high speeds, you need Einstein. If you are making sense of a GPS satellite data, you need Einstein.

For small things, you need Quantum Mechanics. If you are building a transistor, you need Quantum Mechanics.

In the same way, it has been known for a long time we need a new model to understand gravity. This looks promising, but then again so did string theory a few years ago, and string theory progress has bogged down.

I have never found 'dark matter' or 'dark energy' very attractive and would welcome a better explanation. But there are still significant hurdles for this new model to overcome. Just from this one article it is hard to determine how big these hurdles are, they may have already been dealt with, or they may be causing big headaches for proponents.

It will be interesting to watch the story develop. This is what makes science interesting.

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 06:08 PM
Any of you well versed guys familiar with Dr. Randall Mills from Blacklight Power?. He's working on a unified field theory that is using Maxwewlls equations instead of Einstein's. He is not being accepted by mainstream physicists at all but he is getting interesting results related to heat and photon emissions from a lower energy state of hydrogen

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 07:09 PM
I'm taking this one with a grain of salt. WHile the article does seem to give a nice picture of this theory, the problems with the unidealistic models giving an answer further skewed than relativity does not bode well for the theory.

Relatavistic physics has been seated at the top of the heap in the macro physical world for a long time. It will take evidence that actually matches what we see going on the universe to topple relativity.

Quantum gravity braids (from loop quantum gravity) still shows alot of promise but is in the shadow of the other big feild theories such as string and the odd but hopeful E8 model.

The search for the higgs at the LHC (should it be found) could give us a great insight into which theory is more accurate based on its predictions of the higgs particles behavior. . . .

I'd guess that in the next 3-5 years we'll have a much better understanding of quantum gravity. I think it would be vastly more interesting however, if the LHC does not find the Higgs.

I can't even imagine the earth shattering implications of finding no mechanism for the transfer of gravity at the quantum level. What would this mean for the world of physics. . .

Nice article Aquarius S+F

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 07:15 PM

Originally posted by MagnumOverDrive
Any of you well versed guys familiar with Dr. Randall Mills from Blacklight Power?. He's working on a unified field theory that is using Maxwewlls equations instead of Einstein's. He is not being accepted by mainstream physicists at all but he is getting interesting results related to heat and photon emissions from a lower energy state of hydrogen

Mills results have not been replicated by others. Probably because they cannot be replicated. Probably because they are just wrong. No one else can find any evidence of Mill's magical hydrogen "lower energy state".

And Einstein used Maxwell's equations.

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 07:47 PM
What do you make of this study?

BlackLight Power, Inc. Announces Independent Validation of Breakthrough New Energy Source Based on a New Form of Hydrogen and Chemistry Capable of Continuous Regeneration

BlackLight Power Physics Grand Slam: Power, Hydrinos, Light Signature, Theory Prediction Validated

Cranbury, NJ (August 12, 2009)—BlackLight Power, Inc. (BLP) today announces that scientists at Rowan University have for the first time independently formulated and tested fuels that on demand generated energy greater than that of combustion at power levels of kilowatts using BLP’s proprietary solid-fuel chemistry capable of continuous regeneration. Operating power systems using BLP’s chemistry, Rowan University professors have reported a net energy gain of up to 6.5 times the maximum energy potential of the materials in the system from known chemical reactions.

In a joint statement, Dr. K.V. Ramanujachary, Rowan University Meritorious Professor of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Dr. Amos Mugweru, Assistant Professor of Chemistry, and Dr. Peter Jansson P.E., Associate Professor of Engineering said, “In independent tests conducted over the past three months involving 10 solid fuels made by us from commercially-available chemicals, our team of engineering and chemistry professors, staff, and students at Rowan University has independently and consistently generated energy in excesses ranging from 1.2 times to 6.5 times the maximum theoretical heat available through known chemical reactions.”

“Additionally, we have analyzed the reaction products and are confident that the procedures we have followed and chemicals we have procured and reacted are not capable of generating the quantities of heat we have observed with previously known chemistry. This significant disclosure by BLP makes it readily possible for other laboratories to demonstrate the repeatability of these reactions that produce anomalous heat regularly in our university laboratory. Moreover, we have also reproduced BLP’s tests that identify a novel form of hydrogen as the likely explanation of the additional heat evolved.”

Based on the solid fuel used and power generated at scales of approximately 30 kW, the reaction appears scalable to any level. Moreover, BLP scientists were able to regenerate the fuel by simply applying heat. This breakthrough advances the commercial viability of the BlackLight Process as a new non-polluting energy source that was first announced by BLP in October 2008.

Proof of Power

The validation by the Rowan University team provides further evidence that the observed energy gain will enable the operation of commercial power plants by continuously replacing the hydrogen that is consumed by the BlackLight Process to form hydrinos. Hydrinos are a prior undiscovered form of hydrogen in lower-energy states produced by the BlackLight Process as latent energy is released by hydrogen atoms. The energy released forming a hydrino is over 200 times the energy required to extract hydrogen from water by electrolysis to produce the new hydrogen fuel consumed during the BlackLight Process.

“The advanced version of the solid fuel is very efficient at liberating energy from forming hydrinos and requires essentially no energy to reverse the chemical product back into the initial fuel. Regeneration was achieved simply with heat. This is enabling of continuous generation of power using simplistic and efficient systems that use heat liberated by forming “hydrinos” to concurrently maintain regeneration. The system is closed except that only hydrogen consumed in forming hydrinos needs to be replaced,” said Dr. Randell Mills, Chairman, CEO and President of BlackLight Power, Inc.

“The observed energy gain and successful thermal regeneration of the solid fuel show the feasibility of using the solid fuel in a recycled manner as a replacement for fossil and nuclear fuels in power plants. These developments are anticipated to result in a significant decrease in the time to commercialization”, noted Dr. Mills.

John Miller, recently appointed to the Board of Directors of BLP and former president of Standard Oil, described the recent advances saying, “The successful development of new-generation chemistry and its simple thermal regeneration is a major historical step toward near-term, commercial hydrino power. Our recent execution of eight billion watts of commercial licensing agreements demonstrates that the power market is beginning to agree.”

Proof of Existence of Hydrinos

BLP also announces successful independent production and characterization of a new form of hydrogen by professors at Rowan University. In the study independently performed at Rowan University laboratories, Professor Ramanujachary and Professor Mugweru synthesized from base materials the previously undiscovered form of hydrogen and were able to characterize hydrogen atoms existing in lower-energy states – called hydrinos – as predicted by BLP. In further confirmation, the Rowan University team was also able to identify similar hydrino signatures from net energy producing systems operating in Professor Jansson’s laboratories. This represents the first time BLP has taught independent labs the techniques for making hydrinos from scratch.

Dr. Ramanujachary remarked, “Recent advances in techniques at BLP in production of this new form of matter appear to make it straightforward for any lab in the world to synthesize sufficient volumes to characterize this previously unknown form of hydrogen.” Dr. Mugweru continues, “Knowing the starting materials of the synthesis reaction and fully characterizing the by-products, other than a new form of hydrogen, we were unable to make an assignment to known species for the signatures observed.”

Light Signature of Hydrino

BLP also announces today the publication of a paper, by Dr. Randell Mills, Dr. Kamran Akhtar, and Dr. Ying Lu in the Central European Journal of Physics describing a significant new confirmation of hydrinos. For the first time, BLP confirms direct spectral observation of transitions of hydrogen to form hydrinos. These experiments showing hydrogen spectral emissions below 80 nanometers, the previously known ground state, are decisive evidence of the existence of hydrinos theoretically predicted by Dr. Randell Mills. Describing the significance of the breakthrough, Dr. Mills said, “This is smoking-gun evidence of the existence of hydrinos, the light signature observed is from pure hydrogen and at much higher energy than deemed possible for this element in any known form.”

Successful Application of Theory

BLP has published eight journal articles in the past seven months reporting the energetic characteristics of its power-producing process and released in July the newest edition of the Grand Unified Theory of Classical Physics that predicts hydrinos. These are available at:

BLP’s wholly-owned subsidiary, Millsian, Inc., a developer of molecular modeling applications of classical physics, announces the release today of Millsian 2.0 Beta software that can visualize the exact three-dimensional structure and calculate physical characteristics of a boundless number of molecules of any length and complexity including complex proteins and DNA. BLP believes that Millsian software represents a major breakthrough that may impact nearly all businesses involved in drug development, material science, and chemistry. More importantly, it proves that classical laws of physics apply at the atomic and molecular scale, the principle that predicted hydrinos.

Professors Peter Jansson, K.V. Ramanujachary, and Amos Mugweru, have released reports outlining the full documentation and results of the off-site replication and independent testing of the new power systems, new-generation chemistry, and hydrino characterization testing that is available at:

A technical paper giving the detailed chemistry that BLP believes laboratories can easily follow and replicate is given at

About BlackLight Power

BlackLight Power, Inc. is the inventor of a new primary energy source and a new field of hydrogen chemistry with broad commercial applications.

BlackLight Power has invented a new primary energy source with applications to heating, distributed power generation, central power generation, and motive power based on a new chemical process of releasing the latent energy of the hydrogen atom, the BlackLight Process.

For more information, please visit

About Rowan University

Rowan University, Glassboro, N.J., is a highly ranked comprehensive public university that offers bachelor through doctoral degrees. The University comprises seven colleges: Business, Communication, Education, Engineering, Fine & Performing Arts, Liberal Arts & Sciences, and Professional & Continuing Education. U.S News & World Report ranks Rowan's College of Engineering 12th in the nation among programs that offer bachelor and master degrees.


BlackLight Process: A novel chemical process invented by BLP causing the latent energy stored in the hydrogen atom to be released as a new primary energy source.

Hydrino: Hydrinos are a new form of hydrogen discovered by BLP. Hydrinos are produced during the BlackLight Process as energy is released from the hydrogen atom as the electron transitions to a lower-energy state resulting in a smaller radius hydrogen atom.

Spectral Emissions: Spectral emission of an atom such as hydrogen is a unique signature that acts like a fingerprint of its characteristics. Each line of the spectrum is characteristic of and identifies the energy levels of the atom.

Applications of BlackLight Process

Two of the potential applications of its technology are in heating and electric power production. The heat-generating prototypes have shown the BlackLight Process to be potentially competitive with existing primary generation sources over a range of scales from micro-distributed to central power generation. The BlackLight Process thermal power source may be ideal for interfacing with commercially available electric power generating equipment. BlackLight technology may be well-suited for the utility industries and could reduce or eliminate problems such as those arising from the variable regional supply and price of fuels such as coal, natural gas, and oil, and the cost of building out a suitable supporting infrastructure and transmission grids, as well as eliminate pollution, greenhouse gas emission and other market, supply, infrastructure, or environmental adversities.

posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 09:25 PM
reply to post by MagnumOverDrive

rnaa, What do you make of this study?

First, I think a link to the article would have done, and second it isn't a study, it is a press release.

Anyway, Mills, papers have (so far) all been published in journals for speculative ideas. Nothing wrong with that, it just that it means that he is still having trouble getting published in 'main stream' journals.

The labs at Rowan University are the only ones that are (so far) doing any work on this, mainly because Mills is paying them to do so. Again, there is nothing overtly wrong with this, inventors and other commercial developers use Universities in this way all the time, but it does mean that they have a vested interest in the results, and are not independent at all.

Also they are getting their results from equipment and materials supplied directly by Blacklight due to 'commercial confidentiality'.

Finally, the fact that the findings by the Rowan engineers are published by press release instead of by scientific paper speaks to the degree of intellectual capture they are in.

Having said all that, the engineers and other scientists are putting their reputations on the line, and Blacklight claims that others can use info on their website to replicate his results. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened. We will see.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 03:16 AM
I agree we have a long way to go on this, just as we have on any theory of quantum gravity that can be made to fly.

But what appeals to me about this one is the idea of the hidden variable that becomes apparent only under extreme conditions. This is reminiscent of the situation in mechanics where things appear more or less Newtonian until you start to look at extreme velocities, and then the relativistic effects appear.

The other thing I like about this is that it looks falsifiable.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:12 AM
reply to post by Aquarius1

hehe i love this stuff..

Time is Not what people think.

time is a manifestation of reality you change one you change the other.

A rock has no time for it is a rock and does not require it. A human has time becuase he is aware of it.

time is only relitive to us.. any living being requires time as a function. Now if we are talking about "time travel" then one can not do so in his own reality

Becuase it would mean you have just drestroyed your self ofc

"if you look at the movie THE ONE" with jet lee kinda like that...

Now for me to travel back in time would create its OWN time line as i created my own

So in doing so would change that time line and make a brand new one!

You can not travel faster THAN time as its a part of being ALIVE but you can travel faster than light that has nothing to do with time what so ever.

Now light is only a part of the universe we are on, as we know the thing is constant correct? so if it is constant that means it has a basic rule it must follow

breake the rule you break the speed of light and all the paramaters that come with it.. including MASS

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:25 AM
Oh and just to add..

What you think you know you dont but do and always have

This includes the past present and future and the rest.

You see the funny thing is and i will show here about phyics and more..

we as humans ponder away at what is and what is not and why and what can become and the reson for it all

when the very thing we miss is the very reason for asking it?

Do you see that we make the universe? by understanding our self?

what is the understanding of a question? is it the outcome or the question its self?

it can manifest its self as a phiscal form or on our case a mind form .. ie we use our mind to try and figure out that what we dont know...

But the funny part is we do know it, because without the process to figure it out we would never have the ability to do so!

you see?

its not about finding out .. its abou the question being asked.

question > answer

how do i know anything if i do not ask ? people think this is a given when in fact its a function

Just as electons wizz about You indeed do the same.

You are like a clock! and that is were time comes into play...

being alive is hard because of the way we live.. understanding life is a gift we all have.

it is shown to us all every single day yet we take it for granted and get on with it.

the reason for everything in life? YOU.

its that simple

thats how we got qautom physics.. its just another level of a question in a phsyical form.

they are BOTH correct.. and the higs bosson partical is not a partical its you

You are the force that connects mass with energy
kinda a mini singulatriy

dont thank me now thank me in 100 years or something

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 09:42 AM

You are the force that connects mass with energy
kinda a mini singulatriy

dont thank me now thank me in 100 years or something

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 10:37 AM
My biggest quandary is space / time no longer being interconnected. We can see Eisenstein's predictions of time dilation while in orbit around our own atmosphere. It's noticeable and recordable.

Personally I think it will take a lot more than this to "Topple" relativity.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by DaMod]

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 11:09 AM
If you want real scientists take on this theory, read:

By studying perturbations about the vacuum, we show that Horava gravity suffers from two different strong coupling problems, extending all the way into the deep infra-red. The first of these is associated with the principle of detailed balance and explains why solutions to General Relativity are typically not recovered in models that preserve this structure. The second of these occurs even without detailed balance and is associated with the breaking of diffeomorphism invariance, required for anisotropic scaling in the UV. Since there is a reduced symmetry group there are additional degrees of freedom, which need not decouple in the infra-red. Indeed, we use the Stuckelberg trick to show that one of these extra modes become strongly coupled as the parameters approach their desired infra-red fixed point. Whilst we can evade the first strong coupling problem by breaking detailed balance, we cannot avoid the second, whatever the form of the potential. Therefore the original Horava model, and its "phenomenologically viable" extensions do not have a perturbative General Relativity limit at any scale. Experiments which confirm the perturbative gravitational wave prediction of General Relativity, such as the cumulative shift of the periastron time of binary pulsars, will presumably rule out the theory.

I know it's a dense read, but basically the idea is that not all that glitters is gold.


Hořava's initial formulation was found to have side-effects such as predicting very different results for a spherical Sun compared to a slightly non-spherical Sun, so others have modified the theory. It still has problems

All that said, it's fascinating at the very least, and I wish I was equipped to look into that for real, which I'm not (and so aren't most if not all ATS members).

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 03:03 PM
reply to post by buddhasystem

Thanks for the info and links buddhasystem, checking them out, here is a * for you.

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 03:45 AM
reply to post by Vanitas

its not about controlling it.. its more like a gift you have when you are alive . I will be honest and say correctly I can NOT know everything as its impossible to do so, but understanding it is different for me i guess.

It is within all people to understand the force "i know it sounds like starwars" lol but in some ways it true ..

If you look at partical physics then one can look at the missing part of the equation that is looking for the higgs partical "aka god partical"

The missing part is the HUMAN in the equation..

When i did math i always wondered why it was i was APPLYING math, but never understud why it was we had odd and even numbers... and with this i kinda figured out that the problem with math is no human is In math as a factor of the equation?

So all i did was ADD humans as a factor becuase we do the math

When you do any calculation and add a human to the sum then things are no longer linner but become more interesting.

PI is removed also numbers become words more than just 0, 1 ect

The force i talk about is very much about the interaction with mass and energy

Life is some how the GLUE "or higgs" that lets mass and energy COMBINE

LIfe its self is A force.. finding what life is in math / physics is mm well hard i guess

But knowing that life as a "thing" for now IS the higgs boson partical is very interesting for me.

Becuase we are looking for the very essance of life or what creates "binds" matter and energy.. and the funny part i find ironic is this

I can see it when i look in the mirror But we can not define it as a thing we can put on the table as a element / atom

why? well i guess its NOT meant to be that way.

But all life has this force
its a requirement of the universe for you to be alive.

posted on Aug, 9 2010 @ 01:45 PM
I just finished an article that introduced me with this Harava guy, since it was very interesting I looked for more info and discovered the originally article was dated 2009.

So I assumed their had to be a thread around here on topic...

Since it did not get a lot of attention, I hope a bump will add some new views on it.

~ Sinter.

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