I wouldn't recommend masonry to any one.

We will see. You can thank Fitzgibbon for raising me from the dead "so to speak".
Fitzgibbon thinks its funny what happened to us.
I am not amused.

Thanks for your post man...it's given me lots of food for thought regarding the Order.

I agree with several of the other posters who said that maybe you just joined the wrong lodge...don't give up yet...especially if it's something that you would enjoy if you were with a different group. Maybe you should visit a few other lodges and transfer to the one you like best.

It was good that the situation regarding your wife occurred because it gave you the opportunity to show the lodge that you are a righteous and courageous man. You were right to speak up for yourself and your wife...don't ever let anyone put you or your family down. If you didn't defend yourself, you'd have to constantly be subjected to similar disrespect and it would become worse and worse. Sounds to me like you passed that test.

A woman is not a 'whore' because she has tattoos. A woman is a 'whore' because she engages in sexual acts for money...it's as simple as that.

so did OP quit or what? I just saw him on here like 10 minutes ago. whats the update? did you quit? were they suprised?

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
In all fairness I have to preface this article with this: THIS IS FROM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ONLY. THIS IS NOT A RIP ON ALL MASONS. THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

I've been a Master Mason since June of this year. When I first began visiting the lodge for dinners and eventually to receive my First degree initiation I was trying to keep an open mind because it was very important to me that I become a Mason. Right off the bat I felt very alienated and out of place. A whole group of old guys and widows that do nothing but gossip and talk amongst their cliquey circles.... How the hell is a 24 year old supposed to fit into any of this and become a true and faithful Brother?

So initiation night comes around and I'm nervous as a whore in church. I will tell you all now that there is no weird sexual things, it's nothing creepy like that. A lot of ritual and walking in circles blind folded. You take an obligation over a bible (something sacred to be obligated to) and that's pretty much it. At the time it was very moving for me, but later I understood that the brothers really don't even like doing them. All they do is bitch about it. After I found that out the whole experience seemed very superficial and fake.

The second and third degrees aren’t much different than the first. And since this part was televised on the history channel I will tell you how it goes. During the third degree your big right of passage is getting bopped in the head with a fake setting maul. And as before all of this was very emotional for me and I took it very seriously.

Well after becoming a master mason and learning the big masonic secret(**to save a bunch of questions like what is that masonic secret, i will tell you... THERE IS NO SECRET, ONLY GRIPS AND WORDS WHICH I WILL NOT WRITE) things started falling apart... I was spending a lot of time with the Brethren and I started to see their true colors. These men will tell you your great and a good mason and then turn around to the next guy and stab you in the effin back. Hell I even heard a 'brother'... some one who is supposed to have my back no matter what whisper to another 'brother' that my fiance looked like a bar room whore because of her tattoos. Right after I heard him say that he walked over and offered me his hand for a shake and a smile and offered it to her as well!!! I cornered him after the dinner was over and told him if he ever said another cross word about my lady, I'd drag his ass out in the street and beat it.

Well that led to me being labeled a barbarian (HA like Conan?) who only wants to fight. Well I’m sorry fellas but when a man calls your wife a whore because of tattoos on her shoulders he deserves a good ass kicking. Mason or not.

It gets worse. In the masonic obligation a man is sworn to keep a tongue of good report, never to harm a brother in his person or good name, and to reach out and aid a distressed brother who is in danger. Well here we go again. After a meeting A brother who I used to look up to a lot offered to take me out for a beer to congratulate me on completing the Senior Deacons work ( a lot of memory work). I accepted his invitation and we drove to a bar in town that is owned by a brother mason. I was wearing a suit and tie and he was wearing a tux. As soon as we walked in a table full of hood rats started hassling us a bit. No so you understand this, I'm 6'2", 210 white guy and the brother I was with is a little shorter but about the same weight, but he's also almost 60 years old. The table full of little gangsters were all Mexican. Not a race thing, just little cholo hood rats.

I don't think they wanted to mess with me too much but on several occasions they tried to pick a fight with my 'brother'. So remembering my obligations a finished my drink, stood up and told the whole table that if they were looking for a fight then stop picking on the old man, I'll give you what your looking for. Near enough to an exact quote. Bottom line is I was trying to defend my friend who is much older and hasn't been on the streets as much as I have. Sure enough a small fight broke out and that table full of guys were thrown out. Well after that we left and I went home to patch my knuckles up and get some sleep.

The next week at lodge every brother and even some of the brothers wives were doing nothing but talk about that little scrape up in the bar!!!! My friend and brother who I had defended and even took a couple lumps for had gone out of his way to make sure that every Mason in my district found out about this little ruck down at the bar. His words to them were that was an animal and that I beat 5 people up.... He didn't bother to mention that it was to protect him from getting the crap kicked out of him or from breaking a hip or something...

I guess the whole point of this is after being around masons and getting to know them very well I don't trust any of them as far as I could throw them. Actions that took to defend my fiance's honor and protect a brother got so twisted and distorted so quickly that for several weeks I was shocked and very depressed that men I called brothers would turn on me so quickly. Instead of standing up for a brother they cut my legs out from under me.

I still take my obligations very seriously, but I don't think I will ever attend another lodge meeting again after this Thursday. I will be demiting. I will live my life the way any good mason should, honorably, respectfully, and should I ever see certain signs or hear certain words I will respond the way any other mason would. But I will also never forget these experiences that I have been through over the last year or so. And for that reason I would not recommend becoming a mason to any man. Just live a good, honest life.


MOD EDIT

to correct spelling error in thread title )

[edit on 12/5/2009 by benevolent tyrant]

This post says a great deal more about your reactions than his labeling.

i read your first post;

but honestly what do you expect: your becoming a member of a society.

in a society many things are present; people is one thing.

people in a society dont always like other members of people in the same society.

if i want to do something regardless of your in/actions i will do it as i will be who i am regardless of if your a member within the same society as i(re:your BROTHERS response to your bar fight).

further

some brothers fight till their bloody; that does not mean they are not brothers.
just because i am a member of a society, or for example: if you are my brother, does not mean i will act in ways others portray brothers/society acting.

i think you barked up the wrong tree and heard a dog; but expected to hear the tree speak back at you.

after reading further of the thread;

i seriously think your tripping; if you were forced to, by proxy, be around older people that are of a different cultural makeup:then you would know that they dont act normal for what is normal within your subgroup within a society.

just get over it and love your brother for speaking his mind.and hate yourself for thinking you can defend what is not your own to maintain.people dont always agree with the norms from time to time.

lucky for you your not excommunicated from the core of knowledge masonry attempts to represent with its rituals.a little off topic, but many people whom this knowledge stems probably think the grass is greener on the other side; but, either way both sides have societies, and i factually tell you (basically swear) that you would go through the same type of issues regardless of the name of any given society as a member of said society.

i could go on about your brother and your wife;

i personally would love my brother for speaking in that way as it reflects that what one person does to their body is going to have an impact on how that person is viewed.how she choose to get a tattoo and honor her body has nothing to do with you attempting to maintain the honor you have for it(her).and him speaking about it openly in earshot(probably on purpose) is nothing but healthy for the perception you have of her in the years you have to develop your relationship.

you are being blessed to have these interactions; continue them while you can not for the sake of your feelings but for the sake of your experience as a being.

im sure people dont like going to work but they feel it is good to spend money.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


That sux man. Sounds like a bloody awful experience.
I guess it just goes to show you that 'brothers' or not, some guys are just jerks.

One will tell his side of the story, I would like to hear the other side of the story. I don't think it is fair, and is hard to believe that someone would say such things like the tattoo part.

Read the thread before posting . There's more here than you understand. A careful read of the entire post would be helpful to you.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


Well, I have to say your story is definately an interesting one, but not unique.

Not offense meant in the least, seriously, and no, I am not a Mason.

I am however, an adult leader in the Boy Scouts of America.

Now, understand I am thirty-six and I've been around the blocks quite a few times, learning street skills in spotting a liar, spotting a set-up, learning conflict de-escalation, and conflict resolution.

I could go on forever on the things I've learned, but I'll let you read the threads in my profile if you choose to do so, I will not link them here, in due respect for your thread and to keep it on topic.

Now, remember, not being a Mason, but hating violence, back-stabbing, gossip, and the whole host of things that you went through, I've been through many similar instances.

I've worked in food service now for sixteen years, so dealing with difficult people and ignorant people has become something of an art for me.

See, I've had people attack me, attack credibility through character assassination, you name it I've pretty much seen it, I even went through six years of Hell with a manager who did not like that I caught her in a big lie and she made my life a miserable Hell for two of those six years, until I learned to beat her, without lifting a finger.

She accused through an indirect manner that I had stolen cash, that all of the other co-workers doing the same job as I so as to keep us out of the cash drawer, anything to make out lives a miserable Hell. She would tell other co-workers not to do dishes for me because I never did dishes for them.

She was making work harder, instead of leaving within a half hour of the store closing, we would end up leaving an hour to an hour and a half after closing time.

All lies, complete and utter lies, and it pissed me off to no end because she was attacking my character, making my job harder, and generally being a five letter word that starts with a B.

I began to catch on though to some of her games, loading the dishes in an weird way so as to look like there were more, catching her in more lies and then I began quoting policy, procedure, and protocol of the job.

She began to get pissed off, and kept trying to agitate me, even calling several girlfriends whores, and other nasty names, and of course I told the girlfriends.

They would just smile at her all friendly when they came to visit work.

Knowing she was full of venom, hate, spite, and basically a miserable old woman.

Do you know why she did all of this on top of me catching her in her lies?

Because, the store manager, the woman above her, asked me to help her, because this hateful woman had advanced rheumatoid arthritis, her joints were always inflamed, due to her being 50'ish and she could not work fast enough and in food service, you have to work fast, even as a manager, shift-manager, and regular worker.

See, even though my manager asked me to do the extra work for her, and she hated me, I did it anyway, but I let her get my goat, so to speak.

One day into the second year, I ended up closing with my store manager, and I was bitching, whining, and complaining about her shift manager (the hateful woman) and my store manager stopped me.

She asked me three questions.

1) Are you getting paid to be here?

My answer was : Yes.

2) Are you getting overtime?

My answer was : Yes.

3) Then why are you bitching about her?

My answer was : WTF?

My manager told me, if I was getting paid, and making overtime to boot, then quit complaining, because it gave her a reason to complain, write-up, and counsel her shift-manager.

I was stunned into silence.

My manager then told me something another co-worker told me, that the shift-manager was laughing at me, when I would complain loud enough she would hear me.

I was fuming and irritated as Hell.

My manager told me, she respected me, knew I knew the corporate policy inside and out, and everyone else looked up to me as well, but because I let her get to me, people were concerned about me, my co-workers loved me because I did things for this woman who hated me, I did things for them whether they knew it or not, and as well I always assisted, stayed late, and covered shifts whenever needed.

Not just because I'm a workaholic, but because I cared about what the people had going on, cared about keeping people in their jobs, etc.

My manager told me if I quit playing the game back with her, bitching, complaining, and whining, like she did to me, I would win, and not only that, but the shift manager would look like an ass.

I took my manager's advice, she's like a second mom to me, and she's someone who loves me as a friend without any kind of doubt.

Four years later, this woman (hateful shift manager), nasty, petty, spiteful, was wretchedly miserable because she could no longer get to me. She was as well a screamer, someone who screamed at people when they did not do things exactly the way she liked it done.

Well, in the last few months of her employment, she made a fatal mistake.

She yelled at a new co-worker, a teenage boy about sixteen, and by this time I had rolled into my bully busting like I am now, a bully buster, and then when I walked up to her to assist because the food was backing up and their was some confusion with another co-worker and I was trying to sort it out, she turned on me and snapped and screamed at me, the final time.

She screamed at me, and I got pissed, not only because she had been yelling at another co-worker, but because she yelled at me too, in front of co-workers, but her biggest mistake was she did not notice the customer in the lobby.

I went to the back of the store and began doing dishes, but I was pissed as Hell, and I smashed a few things around to make a ruckus because I had no other way to vent right then because I do not like being yelled at, I see people who are violent and verbally abusive as mindless barbarians.

No disrespect towards you, it's not directed at you, at all.

I was a child of a broken home of an alcoholic divorce.

I do not drink.

This shift manager got pissy because I was making noise and she mouthed off, again.

Well, I went off, and told her to go to Hell.

She was stunned into silence.

For all of about thirty seconds, because I'd never said something like that to her, ever.

She came back and asked what I just said, and I repeated it, louder this time.

She yelled at me and told me to go home, she was sending me home.

I walked up front and clocked out and went next door to speak with the customer who had heard all of this confrontation, and I apologized to him profusely for losing my cool.

He said no problem, he knew how she was, everyone griped, bitched, and whined about her to this guy when she wasn't at work, and he would give everyone soulful looks of compassion when she'd be nasty without yelling.

I asked if he would be willing to document what he just saw because I was tired of dealing with her, and he agreed completely to do it, more so because it was the right things to do then because I asked him, and I was not doing it out of revenge, you'd have to know me to know it was more about her lack of character and after six years of putting up with her crap, I'd had enough.

I next called the 1-800 harrassment line and gave them all of the information, including the customers phone number and name, the time, date, everything.

My manager's boss called me right after she did, the next day.

I told them about it all and both were upset because of her actions.

There was documentation to prove she was nasty, money kept coming up short.

It was believed she was stealing and blaming it on us regular workers.

Both my bosses boss, and my boss, the store manager suggested I take one day off.

Then come see them afterwards.

I was not thrilled with this at all, but I did it.

When I came in to talk to them they talked to me, and we discussed what had happened again.

I was told by the store manager that her boss (Area Manager) had ripped her a new butthole.

For various reasons, but one was because I'd never done something like that, so they knew she must have really been extra nasty.

I had to sign a write-up but only for yelling back, and it was more a slap on the wrist.

Next, a few days later, my store manager, the shift manager, and I had to discuss the event.

She was pissy as Hell, spewing venom, and said she would not work with me.

I told me manager I would do what was asked of me and behave.

The next day, my manager suggested her boss had asked if I could work with this woman just long enough for her to scream again, because he was tired of her recalitrant behavior.

I was stunned and was laughing at this suggestion.

She quit within a few months, before she got fired, because she had seen the writing on the wall.

The reaosn I was backed up and she was not was because I was a hard worker, did what was asked of me, generally did not let the gossiping get to me, from her, or anyone else (she started a gossip network).

As well because I had learned the rules along the way, policy, procedure, and protocol.

Now, while I certainly see where you're coming from, don't you think you might be better than these people, rise above them, and not fall for their crap?

People will talk, bitch, moand, gossip, you name it, and it is not necessarily the Mason's fault, it is the group mind, when large groups get together, the IQ goes down.

Raise your level of ethics, morals, and beliefs, and win with IQ...

[edit on 29-12-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by W3RLIED2




...continued.

As well violence is rarely the answer, I've been there, I despise violence.

Instead use your brain and outsmart the perceived enemy, along the lines I mentioned before in regards to your IQ.

If you go reading through my threads you're eventually going to come across a time when I was in my mid-teens and fifteen other teens got off the school bus to kill me and I brought a chain to even the odds, but this was my being a teen.

I was using the Art of War as taught to me by my stepfather, a Vietnam era Marine.

I did not hit them but outsmarted them.

I have now turned the Art of War into the Art of Peace for myself, and instead of getting violent, I get passive, usually, and outsmart those people who get violent with me, or try to instigate me into violence.

Intelligence is something to respect, and while these people did not respect your honor, you did get violent and they were not used to seeing that.

No, I am not defending them in the least, but the older crowd does not generally like violence and as to everything else, well that's just people being people.

Mason's or otherwise, people are petty, spiteful, and vindictive.

Ask any of the Mason's posting in reply to your story, they will most likely agree, to a point.

You see, I had an extremely violent life, childhood bullies, teenage bullies, and basically anyone who though I should not state my opinion, bullied me.

That's how I became a bully buster, becaus eI stood my ground, but understood as well which battles were worth fighting, and which were not.

You can lose many battles, and still win the war, my friend.

Yes, it hurt my honor, and I was insulted when those children did that, those teenagers did that, and that shift manager did that, but it only made me stronger.

Strength of character is much better than strength through muscles.

Protect those who really need it, but know when to walk away, not putting your tail between your legs, but leading those who might be hurt from harm.

See, I see a strong leader in you, as many will probably agree, but honor is not worth losing your life over, and fighting only makes more fighting, and eventually, the other guy is going to be three times your size, and he will kill you.

What will your honor have gotten your loved ones but a funeral?

Think about it, consider going back, but only if you choose to do so, no one can tell you, force you, or push you to do something you do not want to do.

If you do not choose to go back, then don't, I will not think less of you.

If you do go back, and learn to be better than, not through condescending behavior, but through strength of character, and I know I'll respect you for it.

Many Mason's on this site have recommended you consider other lodges.

That might be for you, it might not be, you might walk your own path.

Hell, make your own secret society up, if that's what you want to do.

But don't let other people win through their spitefulness, vindictive behavior, or idiocy, because when they win that way, they only keep perpetuating that idiocy, and you lose out on something that might actually make you better for it, even at another lodge.

Peace be unto you.

Wow. Thats a sad story. Unfortunate, but many here may have had similar events. Otherwise, what does venting about your job have to do with this discussion? Or, did I miss something?

Originally posted by scooterstrats
Wow. Thats a sad story. Unfortunate, but many here may have had similar events. Otherwise, what does venting about your job have to do with this discussion? Or, did I miss something?

My story had to do with dealing with people.

Like the original poster, people got to me, albeit not Mason's, people are people.

The group mentality is the same everywhere you go, at work, or in the Mason's.

Pettiness, spitefuleness, and bigoted behavior is not mutually exclusive to one group.

That's all I meant and I hope maybe it might help him.

That's all.

Again, interesting ! But why have you never posted before in this forum? You have been a member on ATS for 4 years, and now you post a borderline juvenile rant concerning highly personal and specific work problems? Are these issues not better addressed on a forum more appropriate to your vocation?

Originally posted by scooterstrats
Again, interesting ! But why have you never posted before in this forum? You have been a member on ATS for 4 years, and now you post a borderline juvenile rant concerning highly personal and specific work problems? Are these issues not better addressed on a forum more appropriate to your vocation?

Who said I've never posted in this forum before?

Juvenille rant?

I was approximately the original poster's age, maybe a few years older.

And again, it was concerning dealing with people, policy, procedure, and protocol can be seen along the same lines as the initiation rites he was discussing.

There was nothing personal about my story, because I grew because of the events.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Thats cool. Not every group is group-think. God Bless.

Originally posted by scooterstrats
Again, interesting ! But why have you never posted before in this forum? You have been a member on ATS for 4 years, and now you post a borderline juvenile rant concerning highly personal and specific work problems? Are these issues not better addressed on a forum more appropriate to your vocation?

Uh....scooter? He has posted in the SS before. Maybe not a ton but I seem to recall the occasional post from SpartanKingLeonidas here. And his post was entirely on-topic with advice about not letting the illegitimate sons get you down. Applies quite well actually.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

I apologize, I didnt read enough. And point taken.

Thanks for the addition to the thread Spartan. I'm glad that some of the members can understand that my problems here don't specifically pertain to Masons, but rather humans in general. I've learned a lot from the whole experience.

Also, just to update the thread for the brothers and interested readers: I have affiliated with a different lodge. I am still very much a Mason and have not taken a GL demit. And, recently, I entered into discussions with some of the brothers and we will be forming a research group dedicated to the esoteric side of Masonry. I am extremely excited.

Spartan, Fitz, I understand now about leaving the illagitamite sons go about their own business. It's unfortunate that these things have happened but I've learned some life lessons from the experience and have learned much from the members of ATS in this thread. Forward is the only way to go! I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. Hopefully people can take my experience and apply it to their lives and use them to better it.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by scooterstrats
Again, interesting ! But why have you never posted before in this forum? You have been a member on ATS for 4 years, and now you post a borderline juvenile rant concerning highly personal and specific work problems? Are these issues not better addressed on a forum more appropriate to your vocation?

Uh....scooter? He has posted in the SS before. Maybe not a ton but I seem to recall the occasional post from SpartanKingLeonidas here. And his post was entirely on-topic with advice about not letting the illegitimate sons get you down. Applies quite well actually.

Thanks Fitzgibbon.

To scooterstrats credit, it was very late last night when I posted that.

I do not generally post often in the Secret Society forum area, but I've done some real knockouts.

I've had my own thoughts on the Mason's in the past, but my thoughts at this ATS members particular story related to experiences I've been through, and I used only work related experience because it was about corporate policy and pettiness, something I see as definately along the lines of what the original poster was speaking about because people are people, Mason's, or otherwise.

Originally posted by scooterstrats
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

I apologize, I didnt read enough. And point taken.

Don't worry about it, it was very late, and I put a lot out there.

I'm just glad you asked questions, it made me defend my point, which is good.

No worries.

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
Thanks for the addition to the thread Spartan. I'm glad that some of the members can understand that my problems here don't specifically pertain to Masons, but rather humans in general. I've learned a lot from the whole experience.

Also, just to update the thread for the brothers and interested readers: I have affiliated with a different lodge. I am still very much a Mason and have not taken a GL demit. And, recently, I entered into discussions with some of the brothers and we will be forming a research group dedicated to the esoteric side of Masonry. I am extremely excited.

Spartan, Fitz, I understand now about leaving the illagitamite sons go about their own business. It's unfortunate that these things have happened but I've learned some life lessons from the experience and have learned much from the members of ATS in this thread. Forward is the only way to go! I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. Hopefully people can take my experience and apply it to their lives and use them to better it.

W3RLIED2, no problem whatsoever.

I've had strong people around me influencing my thoughts as things turned bad on occasion and I thought you might like to see a perspective of someone who made it through it and got stronger, better, and more out of the experiences.

While I am not a Mason, being an adult leader in the Boy Scouts of America, I am always striving to learn, better myself, and add to the world, rather than take away from it only, and by being a strong leader I can lead by example.

Your own admission about being a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem is a big step because it shows you took some time to reflect on what everyone herein had to say and that maybe, just maybe, there was something you might have missed which shows to me that you're only growing better and stronger because of these experiences.

I am proud of you, W3RLIED2.

You're going to go far.