The apple was a lie!

Originally posted by resonance
wow..just wow..i didnt bother reading any replies im just gonna answer this

they did die..they were created immortal, no pain, suffering, death, any of it...

after they disobeyed and fell they eventually died..as all humans have since..wow..people try so hard to find falsities in something not false they will accept anything..

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

...

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Pay special attention to this last paragraph. Lest he also take of the tree of life and live forever.

Now obviously God mentioning this one little thing should take care of any of this garbage that they died or were created immortal. Hell, after all this, Genesis even goes on to talk about Adam and Eve's life after leaving Eden, they never died. God is a lying two faced tyrannical megalomaniac hell bent on genocidal torture techniques and kills all those who doesn't worship him and if anyone dares be equal to him, he calls them evil heathen mofos and sends them straight to hell for eternity...

But he loves you and forgives all.

reply to post by sirnex


it tells of their death in genesis...yes they lived a long time..they had to begin to populate the planet also the conditions of the planet were much better allowing for longer life

now..in genesis 22....God says unless they take of the tree of life and live forever..they never had to take of it before that..there would be no point..

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by sirnex

 

it tells of their death in genesis...yes they lived a long time..they had to begin to populate the planet also the conditions of the planet were much better allowing for longer life

now..in genesis 22....God says unless they take of the tree of life and live forever..they never had to take of it before that..there would be no point..

Lack of evidence is not evidence of; Meaning, it wasn't explicitly stated that Adam and Eve were immortal, but that in order to become immortal they would have to eat of the tree of life to obtain immortality. You can't claim to be above God and have more knowledge of what he really meant. The little bastard lied and we got the sht end of the stick for it.

reply to post by sirnex


yes they would have to eat of the tree after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil..the disobedience allowed them to die as God cannot lie..

people like you really frustrate me..you try so hard not to believe when an easy truth stares you in the face

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by sirnex

 

yes they would have to eat of the tree after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil..the disobedience allowed them to die as God cannot lie..

people like you really frustrate me..you try so hard not to believe when an easy truth stares you in the face

Oh for crying out loud... If anything is frustrating it's people who can sit there and claim explicit knowledge of what God meant when it isn't explicitly stated. Your not above God, so stop acting like it.

If we were already immortal, then there should have been no fear of becoming immortal, being immortal like God. He *did not want* Adam and Eve to become immortal. It was after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that we would have realized our true potential, just as Satan had realized before that egotistical maniac cast him out. It's called logic, try it someday.

[edit on 1-12-2009 by sirnex]

reply to post by sirnex


it has nothing to do with me thinking i know what God thinks..it is clearly stated what he thinks..he told them they would die if they ate it..they ate it and had to die so he kicked them out of the garden so they could not eat of a tree that would reinstate immortality..its so simple..

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by sirnex

 

it has nothing to do with me thinking i know what God thinks..it is clearly stated what he thinks..he told them they would die if they ate it..they ate it and had to die so he kicked them out of the garden so they could not eat of a tree that would reinstate immortality..its so simple..

It says nothing about reinstating immortality, it's explicitly implied that God never intended for mankind to be physically immortal from the beginning. It never states that Adam and Eve will *start to die*, but that they would die outright after eating of the fruit. Satan informed them of the bogus BS God was telling them, that they would not die, and they didn't.

There were two tree's in Eden that we were never meant to eat from, one giving knowledge of good and evil and the other giving immortality, through both we become like God. Something he is very against which is why he cast Satan out. Damn man, read your bible properly, apply just a slight amount of logic and comprehension into what you read and for crying out loud, don't ADD stuff that doesn't exist.

reply to post by sirnex


its obvious they were immortal..otherwise death would not be the punishment for eating of the fruit..it says they will surely die..they did surely die...it never says they will die immediately..you claim i am misinterpreting but it is you who are making assumptions..not me

reply to post by CHA0S

That's all good and well...but the Lord still lied

ok i'll ask like your the first one smart enough to use this line.
Nobody else has ever thought of this What do you mean God lied?

Your answer is.........

Sirnex again
happy to see you

If we were already immortal, then there should have been no fear of becoming immortal, being immortal like God. He *did not want* Adam and Eve to become immortal. It was after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that we would have realized our true potential, just as Satan had realized before that egotistical maniac cast him out. It's called logic, try it someday.

You are backwards again.
See thats how your evil strawman has you seeing everything upside down and backwards and I recognise it not just in you but in everyone like you and there are many.
No you are not unique by a long shot
infact redundant describes you perfectly.

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and
death through sin death spread to all mankind because all men sinned.

It's really quite simple ,'The wages of sin is death" no sin no wage.

logic has bite you in the azz.



[edit on 1-12-2009 by randyvs]

Remember everyone, some of the events in the Bible are parables not historical facts.

reply to post by rnbiker


the parables are shown as such just as the metaphors, similies, symbolism, etc...trying to take somethin literal and make it something else is what causes problems..if you take what is meant to be literal as literal and what is meant otherwise as such you will never go wrong

Hmmm... if god could make them mortal when they were immortal, why would he care if they in fact ate of the tree of life? Couldn't he just make them mortal again? Can someone explain that one for me? I just fail to see how a tree could limit his supposedly limitless power...lol. guess it would go a long way towards explaining the "could god microwave a burrito so hot that he couldnt eat it " thing though...

Also, if they werent immortal, and then ate the fruit of the tree of life, couldn't god still simply remove their immortality?? Or is that a stumbling block that he can't quite lift that heavy old beard over?

[edit on 1-12-2009 by ganja]

[edit on 1-12-2009 by ganja]

reply to post by resonance


Yeah, the whole problem of that is you are talking about a book that people have killed and died over. You can't mix things like "kill these people, or you will burn FOREVER" with stories about people being swollowed by a whale and living in it for a bit without distinguishing which is parable and which isn't. If you don't, then you get a book where EVERYTHING in it is to be taken on faith that it is THE word of their god. If they are gonna believe a guy can do the things jesus did, why not the rest of it? If a guy can walk on water, etc, why can't there have been an Adam and Eve? it's just as likely, isn't it? Or the whole "golden touch" thing (that was king Soloman, yes?) vs wine to water if you need more of a clear example.

Also, I would like to make it clear that I am NOT a Christian, but was raised as one. Luckily i was able to come to my senses when I got away from my family for a bit when i was younger

reply to post by resonance

its obvious they were immortal..otherwise death would not be the punishment for eating of the fruit..it says they will surely die..they did surely die...it never says they will die immediately..you claim i am misinterpreting but it is you who are making assumptions..not me

DeDeDe, listen for a minute. They *did not die*, it wasn't even upon the list of punishments they received after God found out despite being "all knowing". It neither says they would lose immortality, so where your drawing the conclusion that death = loss of immortality given that God cast them out of Eden before they could obtain immortality is beyond me.

It's like your casting out all logic in your argument that God isn't a two faced lying bastard.

Stop adding information into the text where it doesn't exist.

*It's not ever once stated that mankind was once immortal.
*It is not ever stated that eating from the tree of knowledge that Adam and Eve would lose immortality.
*It is never stated in the list of punishments received by Adam and Eve that they would lose immortality.
*Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden for obtaining the knowledge of good and evil lest they also obtain immortality becoming like God.
-- This tells us that they were never like God to begin with, that we lacked
this knowledge of good and evil and that we lacked immortality --

Now, how is it that I am making assumptions given the above list of things that are contrary to your claims.

reply to post by randyvs

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and
death through sin death spread to all mankind because all men sinned.

It's really quite simple ,'The wages of sin is death" no sin no wage.

logic has bite you in the azz.

Yea OK, don't talk about logic if you don't possess it.

A very vague passage that could very well be talking about any act of being put to death for sin. Stoning would apply more so here.

This verse says nothing about Eden and is very far removed from the events described in Genesis compared to the events described in Romans.

Take the infantile logic and put it away before you poke your eye out, your not old enough to use it yet.

Originally posted by emsed1
Had our progenitors not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge we would be as dumb and happy as the animals.

Animals don't fear death, worry about money, or care with whom they mate.

The tree set us apart from the animals, self-aware and ashamed.

But, now that we know what a pain in the ass free-will is we can use it to our advantage.

Have to agree with you bud....

Here's my take on the whole "fall from grace" mess:

Recently I finished reading the book "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn and am in the middle of "The Story of "B". Both novels delve into our modern cultures' mythologies and the origins. Quinn's contention is that the story of Genesis depicts, not only man's fall from grace, but the story of the Agricultural revolution as written from the perspective of the conquered nomadic herders.

Long story short:

Prior to the agricultural revolution, man lived in harmony with the Earth, taking what was provided naturally from the Tree of Life. When Man ate from the Tree of Knowledge (the knowledge of life and death; who/what lives and who dies) He placed himself on the same level as the gods. This was Man's fall from grace. The nomadic herders could see that man was in violation of the natural laws. The agricuturalists view life as somethng to be conquered, we destroy anything that threatens our farms and cattle. No other animal in nature seeks to eliminate his competition for food. Only Man does this. The story of Cain and Able is a reflection of the initial struggle between the old and the new; the destruction of the nomadic herder and a life lived in harmony with nature and God. It's interesting to note that the people who initiated the agricultural revolution were known as the Caucasians.

As the agricultural revolution continues some 10,000 yrs later, we are constantly bombarded with the mythologies of the agriculturalist conquerer. 'We are at war with nature, we must conquerer the planet and then after that, the universe itself.' This mentality will only bring about the destruction of our species, it is the law of nature which dictates this.

That's just a brief synopsis of the books I mentioned earlier. I highly recommend both books. The information contained is a real eye opener.

~Peace

reply to post by sirnex


DUDE THEY DIED READ THE BIBLE...im sorry but you are just willingly ignorant..you choose to misinterpret it is honestly sad..its a very easy to understand passage yet you are distorting the meaning to fit you belief that God somehow misspoke, which he did not do

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by sirnex

 

DUDE THEY DIED READ THE BIBLE...im sorry but you are just willingly ignorant..you choose to misinterpret it is honestly sad..its a very easy to understand passage yet you are distorting the meaning to fit you belief that God somehow misspoke, which he did not do

DUDE, God never said they were immortal and was against them becoming immortal. God never states they would lose immortality and hahaha I'll kick them out before they get it again. It's called reading comprehension, when one comprehends what they're reading, they don't ADD sht to the text.

reply to post by sirnex


i havent added anything..you are making assumptions that you shouldnt from a passage that is easily understood if read literally..

the bible clearly states that the penalty of sin is death..death entered the world through sin..sin did not exist until adam disobeyed..its very simple..being unable to die since death did not exist makes them immortal..you are the one who lacks comprehension and logic..they could not eat of that tree of life after their sin, as that would cause God's word to be false which it never is..

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by sirnex

 

DUDE THEY DIED READ THE BIBLE...im sorry but you are just willingly ignorant..you choose to misinterpret it is honestly sad..its a very easy to understand passage yet you are distorting the meaning to fit you belief that God somehow misspoke, which he did not do

DUDE, God never said they were immortal and was against them becoming immortal. God never states they would lose immortality and hahaha I'll kick them out before they get it again. It's called reading comprehension, when one comprehends what they're reading, they don't ADD sht to the text.

I am not even involved and your both ?!$$!ng me off.
Get over it sirnex.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a
son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight
hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and
thirty years: and he died.

It's quite clear, he died. Get it? GOD hasn't lied about anything Pal.

And resonance,

sirnex is correct in pratical terms only.

His unwillingness to understand the text and it's implications, which some have already tried to express when offering addition confirmation from various scriptures to support your assertion, is one thing, BUT..............

I HAVE looked, and nowhere did MOSES ever, or the scribes whom scripted the Books of Moses, specifically call man immortal, or indicate GOD had spoken this.

Other texts and scriptures allude to this, and research and study does effectively support your view that MAN, Mankind, re-created Male and Female on the 6th Day, as well as The MAN (Adam the Tiller/Farmer) and his Eventual Mate Eve, were created to live eternally.

The Question that needs to be addressed here though, is was this a Spiritual Death, or Physical?

You see, we do have an example of a person who never died.

Enoch, from the decendants of Adam from Chapter 5
(Not the CAINite Enoch, the Builder of Cities recorded in Chapter 4)

Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three
hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five
years:
5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took
him.

No where here, is there any indication that Enoch died. Only that GOD took him, and he walked with GOD. It doesn't indicate he died or went missing.

So maybe, we did have immortality. This certainly applies when the matter is considered on a spiritual level, but maybe this is an example on a physical level.

Ciao

Shane