The apple was a lie!

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Regardless to the language Adam and Eve actually spoke, the record we have of the events (Old Testament) were written in ancient Hebrew, with a few short elements in Aramaic (these are: (Ezra 4.8–6.18 and 7.12–26, Jeremiah 10.11, Daniel 2.4–7.28).

The way I was taught to study the bible, was to get a Hebrew bible, find the word used for "apple or fruit" from this passage and look up the Hebrew definition of it.

The New Testament was written in Greek but we know the writers spoke Aramaic which is a dialect of Hebrew. So when I study the TN and a Jewish person is speaking, like Jesus, I look up the words in Hebrew to get a more complete understanding of his thought proceses because Jesus was first a Jew.. his thought processes would be Jewish. He and his deciples also spoke Greek as a second language. Greek was the most prevalent language of the time that almost everyone spoke. This is why the NT was written in Greek - to bring the known world the Gospel of Jesus.

I find it helpful to have Hebrew and Greek literal translations with the use of Hebrew and Greek concordences, lexicons and dictionaries.

I have to just stop you with this post here, as none of it is relavant to anything.

Dude asked about apples in the Bible. I merely told him when that connection was made. It doesn't matter if it is in the Hebrew. It doesn't matter if it is in the Greek. What matters is that it was connected in the Latin, as THAT is the source of the confusion.

Also.. saying Aramaic is a dialect of Hebrew is like saying Porteguese is a dialect of Spanish. They are different (although similar) languages.

Originally posted by Julie Washington
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.

Thus they became mortals.

A good question would be "what would we be today if they hadn't eaten the apple?" Dumb, old and naked?

Eh... We were already mortal. God did not create Adam and Eve immortal. They were cast out of Eden before they had a chance to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and become immortal. According to Biblical Scripture, man lived for really long periods of time, close to a thousand years for some, but never was man immortal. It was after the flood that God set the upper limit of man's lifespan to 120 years or so. It's all in Genesis if you want to read it, God lied about the whole death thing so we wouldn't eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was thanks to Satan's generous act of truthfulness that allowed us to understand good an evil, after receiving this gift, we're the one's who get punished because some prick in the sky couldn't watch us run around naked anymore. All powerful, but he chooses punishment over simpler methods of controlling the situation. Might be all powerful, but all retarded at the same time.

Originally posted by On the Edge

Look at all the New-Age philosophies today. Don't they all state similar things,that "You are a god;all is god,god is all"?

"Lucifer was cast from Heaven for attempting to equal God, who can have no equal. Then, being filled with evil, Lucifer tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit, telling her that if she ate the fruit, “your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Thus began the fall of man as he attempted to be as God."

It's about not trusting God,who had created everything Adam and Eve could possibly need or want. That wasn't good enough for Satan though! He wanted to come along and mess that up,and he's done a pretty good job of ever since!

Oh rubbish,God created two trees, one of knowledge and one of life that we weren't allowed to eat of.Yet he created us with an innate desire to want to eat from these two trees, but we decided to listen to God and not eat of them. Then Satan came along and politely informed us of these trees and why we desired them so much and that God had lied so we wouldn't become equal to God as Satan had attempted to do. This is certainly about trusting God. He wants no equals because he's a tyrant who kills those who question him. Last thing a genocidal tyrant wants is someone equal in power to him.

reply to post by sirnex

It was after the flood that God set the upper limit of man's lifespan to 120 years or so

Isn't it weird how this is true even to this day?

Just thought I would ad this little tidbit of info

reply to post by sirnex

It was thanks to Satan's generous act of truthfulness that allowed us to understand good an evil, after receiving this gift, we're the one's who get punished because some prick in the sky couldn't watch us run around naked anymore. All powerful, but he chooses punishment over simpler methods of controlling the situation. Might be all powerful, but all retarded at the same time.

...

Then Satan came along and politely informed us of these trees and why we desired them so much and that God had lied so we wouldn't become equal to God as Satan had attempted to do. This is certainly about trusting God. He wants no equals because he's a tyrant who kills those who question him. Last thing a genocidal tyrant wants is someone equal in power to him.

That's pretty much exactly how I interpret that story...it bothers me how God refuses that anyone have power close to his...that anyone should question his ways...and that we should be unquestioning and blindly faithful in this Lord...the bible even goes so far as to state "lean not unto your own understanding"...it's basically telling you to throw independent thought out the window and rely only upon the Lord...why in the world did he create us with free-will in the first place then? Just so he is able to send disobedient souls to hell?

[edit on 29/11/09 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by sirnex

 

It was after the flood that God set the upper limit of man's lifespan to 120 years or so

Isn't it weird how this is true even to this day?

Just thought I would ad this little tidbit of info

I don't personally believe in the Biblical God, but if he is real then I am on Satan's side, not because Satan is evil, but because Satan received a bad rap. I don't view requesting being treated as equal as a bad thing. Women rose up against man in order to start being treated as equal to us, despite the biblical God pretty much stating that women are absolutely inferior to men, period. We humans have learned that treating each other as equals brings more good than it does harm and is in no way an evil act at all, despite what God may have to say. His genocidal murderous tyranny needs to stop before he carries out his promise of his next act of genocide against our people.

If he created the universe and all life within, then good for him. Did he consult with any of us before creating free thinking intelligent beings that just perhaps may *not* want to be forced to worship him out of fear of eternal punishment for failure to do so? The damn guy is just off his rocker. He needs to quiet being an egocentric narcissist for just one minute and realize that *we did not ask* him to create all of this and had we known that we would not be allowed to live freely without fear of his wrath, we probably would not have wanted it. At least I wouldn't. I'd choose not having been created over fear of eternal punishment for failing to kiss hairy all powerful as*.

reply to post by CHA0S

That's pretty much exactly how I interpret that story...it bothers me how God refuses that anyone have power close to his...that anyone should question his ways...and that we should be unquestioning and blindly faithful in this Lord...the bible even goes so far as to state "lean not unto your own understanding"...it basically telling you to throw independent thought out the window and rely only upon the lord...why in the world did he create us with free-will in the first place then? Just so he is able to send disobedient souls to hell?

That's the point, we weren't created with free will to begin with. How can a newly created group of beings, Adam and Eve, have true free will without explicit knowledge of good and evil. What are we choosing against without that knowledge? Sure, we chose to listen to Satan, but that was out of naivety rather than true free will to disobey. We were told truthfully that we had been lied to, that this tree would give us the knowledge of who God really is, that he isn't all there in the head.

Originally posted by CHA0S
why in the world did he create us with free-will in the first place then? Just so he is able to send disobedient souls to hell?

[edit on 29/11/09 by CHA0S]

It isn't free-will that is the problem, because in all seriousness, do we doubt that "God" lacks free will? Of course not. However in the Bible, God is the one that makes the rules and is, by definition, unable to sin.

So.. if God is unable to sin, yet has free will, couldn't he have made a perfect human that had both free-will AND lives without sin? He did it once.. take Jesus. Perfect human. Lived without sin, eh?

So, if God created Man with the ability to do wrong, then clearly God's work was flawed. If God's work is flawed, then God is fallible. If God is fallible and can do something wrong, then God is not perfect.

We should not blame Adam, Eve, or Lilith for their removal from Paradise, or even Satan's pride (God created Satan with that pride) we blame GOD for making an inferior universe with inferior beings populating it.

reply to post by sirnex

for just one minute and realize that *we did not ask* him to create all of this and had we known that we would not be allowed to live freely without fear of his wrath, we probably would not have wanted it. At least I wouldn't.

That's exactly right...just because he created us in no way means we should have to worship him or pay the price of eternal suffering...I mean...does a mother have the right to demand her child never becomes an equal...does she have the right to send that child to eternal suffering...she may be allowed to punish the child if they do wrong...fine...but some people who live out in the middle of no-where and haven't even heard of the bible, according to the Cristian faith get sent to hell...

reply to post by HankMcCoy

We should not blame Adam, Eve, or Lilith for their removal from Paradise, or even Satan's pride (God created Satan with that pride) we blame GOD for making an inferior universe with inferior beings populating it.

Precisely...and since he apparently knows all, it makes it even worse...it's like he does all this on purpose and takes pleasure in doing it...then when someone questions him or attempts to gain power equal to him...BE GONE WITH YOU...imagine if we had a one world government and the head honcho was like God...

[edit on 29/11/09 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by CHA0S
imagine if we had a one world government and the head honcho was like God...

The only time in history when we did have a one world government, the head honcho WAS God. (Talkin bout the Catholic Church, mates.)

I have a question...when god created Adam and Eve did God know they would eventually eat of the tree of knowledge? If he did not why not? God is supposed to know all correct?

If he did know they would eat of the tree why did he create them in the first place? In fact if God knows everything then he knew from the start how sinful we would become. If not then he made a mistake? or did not have the power to create sinless creatures?

Did god create humans just to toy with us and have us worship him? Why would he need worship? Was he depressed and looking for some company to worship him?

I am being serious here. The gods as described in the middle eastern bibles seems very odd to me. It appears he created many of us just so we could die and not enjoy eternal life with him and Jesus.

So either god created many of us knowing we would never believe or he could not make us perfect...

Explain that please.

Originally posted by HankMcCoy


I have to just stop you with this post here, as none of it is relavant to anything.

Dude asked about apples in the Bible. I merely told him when that connection was made. It doesn't matter if it is in the Hebrew. It doesn't matter if it is in the Greek. What matters is that it was connected in the Latin, as THAT is the source of the confusion.

I just have to continue with this post here as it is relevant to what you said, that I was asking about.

I did not understand how you made a Latin connection. I was asking you about it.. How would you even come up with Latin in your answer when the best info we have is not translated from Latin but would come from the Hebrew. that is why I explained how I studied. So you would understand where I was coming from so you could answer me. I see you failed to see and completely missed the point of my post.

My original question, ( "Please tell me where you came up with Latin? Shouldn't you be looking at the actual Hebrew word used? When King James had the bible translated.. he went from Hebrew to english for the old testament did he not? Only the Catholic translations used any latin.")

You did not answer with this:

"We are talking around 400-500 C.E., mate. English wasn't even a language yet.(Not in any form we would recognize, anyway.. though its precursors are visible.)

The original language of the Bible is Hebrew, Aramaic (Which is NOT Hebrew) and Greek.
Also, The KJV took reference from about 9 different languages."

So I expounded more so you could understand where I was coming from. so that you can answer my question.

Now if you still feel "you have to just stop me with this post here, as none of it is relavant to anything." and you still cannot see its relevance then I won't force you to answer, but I would still like to know how you made the Latin connection.




[edit on 29-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by AshleyD


God has more attributes than immortality. If people hope to attain eternal life, then that would make them seeking to be like God? I think it's clear physical suffering...including death..can be traced to this event.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
I did not understand how you made a Latin connection. [edit on 29-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

What is there to understand?

Apple and Evil are the same word in Latin.

Why would I look to Hebrew for the 'apple' connection to the fruit when it isn't there? The connection doesn't happen until the Hebrew is translated to Latin in the 5-6th centuries.

KJV is not relavant.
Your study techniques are not relavant.
The Original Text is not relavant.
The only thing that IS relavant to my point is the Latin translation.

reply to post by HankMcCoy


About The Apple

You said: "When the first translations of the Bible were made, the connection was drawn. "

Oh I see, you are assuming that the first translations of the Hebrew bible was a Latin version such as the Vulgate. Actually the Greek Septuagint predates the Vulgate by almost 200 years. I couldn't understand why you choose Latin, and now I see it is because you believe the Latin versions were more popular with the early Christians than the Greek or any other version.

Non Catholics are not taught this. We don't put much stock in or use the Latin versions.

Interesting. I will examine the passage in question from a Latin and a Greek version.

You know.. if you would have said this in the first place perhap I would have understood where you were coming from:

"Why would I look to Hebrew for the 'apple' connection to the fruit when it isn't there? The connection doesn't happen until the Hebrew is translated to Latin in the 5-6th centuries.
"


[edit on 29-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by CHA0S



The cake is a lie.


Absolutely it was. You could take that verse in proverbs and line it up with a great multitude of other places in the Bible and it shows that the Bible is not God's word and is not perfect and that most of the stories, particularly those toward the beginning of the book, are just myths.

God shouldn't have planted the tree in the first place. I mean he creates Adam and Eve without the ability to tell right from wrong and he doesn't want them to know right from wrong but he plants the tree anyway. Doesn't make a bit of sense when taken literally but if you look at it as a figurative explanation of our ascent from naked apes into ordered societies it begins to make a little more sense.

Originally posted by Xeven
I have a question...when god created Adam and Eve did God know they would eventually eat of the tree of knowledge? If he did not why not? God is supposed to know all correct?

If he did know they would eat of the tree why did he create them in the first place? In fact if God knows everything then he knew from the start how sinful we would become. If not then he made a mistake? or did not have the power to create sinless creatures?

Did god create humans just to toy with us and have us worship him? Why would he need worship? Was he depressed and looking for some company to worship him?

I am being serious here. The gods as described in the middle eastern bibles seems very odd to me. It appears he created many of us just so we could die and not enjoy eternal life with him and Jesus.

So either god created many of us knowing we would never believe or he could not make us perfect...

Explain that please.

It's questions like that which are ignored. Good luck getting an answer. Anyone with a lick of sense knows the answer THERE IS NO GOD.

wow..just wow..i didnt bother reading any replies im just gonna answer this

they did die..they were created immortal, no pain, suffering, death, any of it...

after they disobeyed and fell they eventually died..as all humans have since..wow..people try so hard to find falsities in something not false they will accept anything..

What if the fruit was a metaphor for carnal knowledge ?