Allen Hills 84001 proved to contain Martian fossils

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Thank you Arbitrageur.

You give me a clue (13.000 years) but I need from you some explanations about an hipotesys:

Which Speed must have a rock in order to leave the Mars gravitational field after an immense outbreak on the surface?

Do the speed and the trajectory remain constant in the space?

Which distance is between Mars and the Earth?

How much time would employ that rock to arrive on the earth?

Originally posted by Imagir
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Thank you Arbitrageur.

You give me a clue (13.000 years) but I need from you some explanations about an hipotesys:

Which Speed must have a rock in order to leave the Mars gravitational field after an immense outbreak on the surface?

Do the speed and the trajectory remain constant in the space?

Which distance is between Mars and the Earth?

How much time would employ that rock to arrive on the earth?

Good questions. The speed initially leaving Mars only needs to be equal to or greater than escape velocity. Once it escaped, it could have been traveling fast or slow, we don't know its speed, trajectory, or distance traveled from Mars to the Earth.

The reason we know how long it was in transit is because it was bombarded with cosmic rays in space, and since we've sent probes into space and know the intensity of these cosmic rays, we can deduce how long the rock has been exposed to them. That is how the 16 million years ago was arrived at, it's not based on speed or trajectory.

Source:

nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov...

16 million years ago, a large meteorite struck Mars, dislodging a large chunk of this rock and ejecting it into space. (Based on the cosmic ray exposure age of the meteorite)

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Sorry but of course 16 Million years is.....TOO MUCH TIME! And it's a lie.

According to the respective position during the orbit around the Sun, the Earth-Mars distance can vary gives approximately 55 million to approximately 101 million Km and obviously all it depends all from the current Mars distance from the Earth.

At moment Mars is to a joined distance of 2.29 Astronomical Units. (1 Astronomical Unit is equivalent to the distance Earth/Sun that corresponds in average to 149. 597. 870 Kilometres)

Admitting that the faster probe reaches approximately the 22,000 km hour a probe it employs 9 months to cover an astronomical unit. (I hope do not to mistake).

However Mars has a joined medium distance of 1.50 astronomical from the earth. Therefore in theory if the probe maintains the same speed enough to make a proportion in order to comprise that us almost. Therefore in theory if the probe maintains the same speed enough, to make a proportion in order to comprise that, it will put to cover the distance almost little more than a year.

Little more than a year..... (maybe 2 years? 10? 100? 1000?) but NOT 16 MILLION YEARS!

I hope do not to mistake the calculations I have made them following logic.

Oh forgive: Mars speed escape is...... Five point zero four!

reply to post by Imagir

You assume the meteorite went straight from Mars to Earth. Objects in space do not go in straight lines. There is no way to know what the orbit of the rock was. It could have easily been in orbit around the Sun for millions of years before it got close enough to Earth to be captured. Just like some of the ones from the Moon.

[edit on 11/30/2009 by Phage]

Originally posted by Imagir
Do the speed and the trajectory remain constant in the space?

As with any other object that is ejected from a large body like a planet, once it has escaped the gravitational clutches of that object, it is then effectively in orbit around (and falling in towards) the Sun. Unless significant outside forces interact with it or it collides with something (Earth in this case), the orbit around the Sun will remain more or less the same, until it eventually plunges into the Sun itself.

As for velocity, since no orbit is perfectly circular, the orbital velocity would have increased when it was closer to the Sun and decreased while it was further away.

Whilst we can't say exactly what speed the rock was traveling relative to Earth when it hit, like all other objects in solar orbits it would have entered the atmosphere at between 11-73 km/s.

Edit: I believe the maximum speed that objects attain in a solar orbit, relative to the Sun is around 50 or 60 km/s. I had a reference the other day, but I can't find it now, so I'm not 100% sure.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by C.H.U.D.]

reply to post by Imagir

Phage and CHUD are correct.

Speed is relative so perhaps I should have been more clear in my reply about the frame of reference I meant when referring to speed.

If the impact caused ALH84001 to leave the Martian surface at just over the Mars escape velocity, then what happens is that most of this relative velocity is used up in the escape and the escaping rock COULD be traveling quite slowly relative to Mars by the time it's far from the surface of Mars. (or it could have been traveling much faster too if the velocity at the Martian surface greatly exceeded the escape velocity).

But when we change our frame of reference for velocity from Mars to the sun, we would see both Mars and the rock escaping from it are moving at a rapid velocity in orbit around the Sun.

Now if we want to speculate on what the orbit of ALH84001 was, it seems likely that the orbit around the Sun was probably more elliptical than the orbit of either Earth or Mars, and was probably over 1.0AU in average distance from the Sun so I would guess that it made something less than 16 million orbits around the Sun on an Earth-orbit crossing elliptical orbit, and never impacted the Earth earlier because the Earth wasn't in the right place at the right time in its orbit for the collision to occur. Getting just the right timing to hit is what probably took 16 million years.

I admit the guesses about its orbital trajectory are a bit speculative, but I don't think the 16 million years age is very speculative, it could be off somewhat but it's probably a fairly good estimate.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by Phage


MARS; EARTH; VENUS; MERCURY; SUN.

The Earth is the first celestial body with a meaningful gravitational mass that the Mars rocks meet in its rectilinear way.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Imagir

 

You assume the meteorite went straight from Mars to Earth. Objects in space do not go in straight lines. There is no way to know what the orbit of the rock was. It could have easily been in orbit around the Sun for millions of years before it got close enough to Earth to be captured. Just like some of the ones from the Moon.

[edit on 11/30/2009 by Phage]

If the rock had entered in orbit around the sun for 16 million years it would have fallen in the sun attracted from its immense gravity. How it has made to escape to the gravity of the sun?

reply to post by Imagir

Has Mars "fallen into the Sun"? Has Earth "fallen into the Sun"?
You need to learn more about objects in space and how they move. It did not escape the gravity of the Sun. If it had it would not have hit Earth.

[edit on 12/1/2009 by Phage]

Originally posted by Imagir
reply to post by Phage

 

MARS; EARTH; VENUS; MERCURY; SUN.

The Earth is the first celestial body with a meaningful gravitational mass that the Mars rocks meet in its rectilinear way.

That all depends...

...Was the Earth on the opposite side of the Sun relative to Mars when the Mars rock was on its "rectilinear path"? Depending on which side of the Sun the rocky planets were at the time relative to Mars, then Venus, Mercury, or even the Sun could have been the first meaningful body in its way -- that is, assuming it headed in a direction toward the Sun.


[edit on 12/1/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

After a comet or a large asteroid has crashed on Mars and has raised stones in the outbreak, approximately two years later, (13,000 years ago) those rocks have arrived on the Earth surface and have primed the "Biblical Flood".

One of this shower asteroid is ALH 84001!

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by Imagir
reply to post by Phage

 

MARS; EARTH; VENUS; MERCURY; SUN.

The Earth is the first celestial body with a meaningful gravitational mass that the Mars rocks meet in its rectilinear way.

That all depends...

...Was the Earth on the opposite side of the Sun relative to Mars when the Mars rock was on its "rectilinear path"? Depending on which side of the Sun the rocky planets were at the time relative to Mars, then Venus, Mercury, or even the Sun could have been the first meaningful body in its way -- that is, assuming it headed in a direction toward the Sun.
[edit on 12/1/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

Simply: check the position Mars/Earth 13,000 years ago....

Originally posted by Imagir
After a comet or a large asteroid has crashed on Mars and has raised stones in the outbreak, approximately two years later, (13,000 years ago) those rocks have arrived on the Earth surface and have primed the "Biblical Flood".

One of this shower asteroid is ALH 84001!

So you're going to just ignore the 16 million years of cosmic radiation ALH84001 received? Since the motto of this site is "deny ignorance" I'm invoking the motto now.

As for the possibility of another rock besides ALD84001 leaving Mars and reaching Earth in 2 years, I hate to use the word impossible, it's not, but it's very unlikely.If there were billions and billions of rocks that reached Earth from Mars, then yes I'd expect a few of those might reach Earth in 2 years, but that would be the exception rather than the norm and I don't think there were that many rocks heading from Mars to Earth.

Why? Because the number of directions the rock can travel and miss Earth is vastly greater than the directions it can travel and hit Earth in such a short time. Draw a million lines heading away from Mars in different directions, and at a given velocity, chances are only one of those directions will cause the rock to impact the Earth within 2 years. If the rocks trajectory is off by the tiniest fraction of a degree when it leaves Mars, this will cause it to miss Earth. But in the case of ALH84001, it can keep orbiting the sun, and trying for another 16 million years until it finally succeeds in striking the Earth!

reply to post by Arbitrageur


My hypothesis is more reasonable (Occam razor) and more fascinating than "the 16 millions years around the sun".

reply to post by Imagir

Why is it more reasonable to assume that it made a beeline straight for Earth than to expect it didn't have any particular direction in mind and just took a while before colliding with something? It seems the beeline for earth trajectory isn't any more likely than millions of other possible trajectories which wouldn't have it collide with Earth within 2 years.

Just look at Apophis, its orbit will take it very close to Earth, but it's going to miss by 20,000 miles because it's a lot easier to miss the Earth than it is to hit it.

www.howcloseisapophis.com...

on April 13, 2029, Apophis will pass by Earth within about 20,000 miles. This pass will be close enough to alter the asteroid's orbit. The exact course of the new orbit will depend on exactly how close Apophis passes by us. As of April 16, 2008, astronomers had calculated that there is a 1 in 45,000 chance Apophis' new orbit will set it on a collision course with Earth, with an impact date of April 13, 2036.

So if the odds of an Earth collision are only 1 in 45,000 after a close pass like that, it might take several tries at hitting the earth before it finally succeeds, and yes it could take millions of years, with Mars rocks, or possibly even with Apophis.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Which are the tests about the hypothesis of Martian ALH84001 captured in the orbit around the sun for 16 million years?

Originally posted by Imagir
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Which are the tests about the hypothesis of Martian ALH84001 captured in the orbit around the sun for 16 million years?

Since it left Mars and Mars is in orbit around the sun then it's logical ALH84001 was also in some orbit around the sun. Then the question becomes, for how long and that is answered by measuring isotopes of the elements helium, neon, and argon.

www.lpi.usra.edu...

The cosmic ray exposure age is how long a meteorite orbited in interplanetary space, exposed to cosmic rays from the Sun and the galaxy. As these cosmic rays (high-energy elementary particles) hit a meteorite, they produce some characteristic new isotopes (by transmutation) of chemical elements, both radioactive and stable. The longer a meteorite is exposed to cosmic rays, the more of these new isotopes are present.

For ALH 84001, isotopes of the elements helium (3He), neon (21Ne), and argon (38Ar) have been used to calculate a cosmic ray exposure age. Most of these ages are between 16 and 17 million years, with a few measurements as young as 12 million years.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Smithsonian Astrophysical and Harvard College Observatories...
www.nature.com...

Still all very uncertain on the determination and the effect of the cosmic rays for the calculation of the age of a meteorite.

reply to post by Imagir
Did you see the date on that publication? 09 May 1959

We have learned a lot since then.

I already said the 16 million is only an estimate and not exact, as confirmed by the source I cited showing a range of 12-17 million years on various measurements. Even if the error is greater, and the transit time from Mars to Earth was 10-20 million years, that's enough to rule out 2 years right?

reply to post by Arbitrageur


We don't know two things for sure yet. Is it really signs of life, and did it really come from Mars? Remember, conventional scientsts are afraid to venture into such things as, "Well, maybe its from an exploded planet that the lifeforms advanced upon enough to explode it themselves....."
(Little joke)
But, heck, all we have to do is look at this agonizingly long search for water that turns out to be two inches right underneather the spacecraft! and we can understand that the truth is always somewhere down the road after some of the common folk know it already. The practice of Science is funny that way. Some day I expect they will approve of UFOs.