Dark Power: Scientists suspect aliens using Black Hole

Originally posted by georgejetson
reply to post by VonDoomen

 

How does squeezing/compressing dark matter annihilate it?

According to some theories on dark matter, one of the ways it is different from regular matter is that its particles and antiparticles are exactly the same. I think this is to explain why it doesn't interact with regular matter except through gravity.

Anyway, assuming dark matter particles are their own antiparticles, when they collide under the right circumstances, they annihilate each other. The interstellar medium is really spread out, and particles in it hardly ever collide, but if you vacuum it up and squeeze it into a box, the collisions will become more and more regular, until it goes kaboom.



[edit on 26-11-2009 by georgejetson]

Okay, I can see how this a theory, but Im having trouble understanding

"one of the ways it is different from regular matter is that its particles and antiparticles are exactly the same. I think this is to explain why it doesn't interact with regular matter except through gravity."

if the particles are "the same" how can they act differently.

Also, with dark matter composing 90-95% of the universe, its collision would be much more often. And on top of that, matter/anti-matter collisions produce the most energy, complete conversion of matter into energy.


ALSO, DO NOT CONFUSE ANTI-MATTER WITH DARK MATTER.
They are 2 completely different concepts. We actualy have and can produce Anti-matter in minute quantities. Dark matter we have no freakin clue.

- Don Huanguenero -if black hole is real, how can anything escape from it's center?

to me personally, this story about traveling through something that doesn't even exist is like science fiction story (with emphasis on fiction)



-4nsicphd - How do you stop the freakin' thing? As you approach the speed of light, the mass of the whole contraption approaches infinity according to the formula M'=SQR 1-v^2/c^2, where M' is the mass of the moving object, v is the velocity and c is the speed of light, 3X10^8 m/sec. So if your black hole is only one solar mass (2X10^30 kg) and you are dusting along at 99.9% of c, then just the mass of the black hole part of the craft would be approaching infinity.Although you might have enough energy to accelerate to 2.997 meters/second in a couple of days, to stop it might take millenia. Also the length of everything moving that fast will contract according to Lorentz transformation rules.Your bloodflow is going to be very problematic since every artery and vein will contract. The blood cells too, but flows depend on exponents of the radius and linearly reducing everything doesn't necessarily work.
You also need to keep from being fried by the propelling radiation, which must be Hawking radiation, so the temperature will be hc^3/8piGM


-DjSharperimage - but i dont think UFO's use blackhole's to travel;

I think the UFO's use "Interdimensional Travel



-Gliese581 - "Let there be no doubt. Alien technology harvested from the infamous saucer crash in Roswell, N.Mex., in July 1947 led directly to the development of the integrated circuit chip, laser and fiber optic technologies, Particle beams, Electromagnetic propulsion systems, Depleted uranium projectiles, Stealth capabilities, and many others! How do I know? I was in charge! (A matter of public record)I think the kids on this planet are wise to the truth, and I think we ought to give it to them. I think they deserve it.
--Colonel Philip Corso Army Intelligence officer,


.....sorry for quoting others here , but it's much easier !


[edit on 27-11-2009 by radarloveguy]

im sorry but i dont see something like a black hole that destroys light bring used for transport. not very safe.

reply to post by Outrageo


Woah i have seen a lot of this lately not long ago a warp drive was shown on ATS of a black hole human spaceship they are attempting to build.

How does it work does anyone even know? once you go through.. is it seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? or years before you arrive?

would be incredible to say be in Gliese and you turn on the drive then cruise through it and a few (whatevers) later appear on the edge of our system.. just thinking about it is exciting.

There is no such thing as Hawking radiation. It does not exist. The very first time Earthlings create a black hole they will be sucked down into it and destroyed.

Interstellar travel could possibly be done with magnetic wave emitters that bend gravitational waves so as to create positive or negative thrust, basically creating a bubble in the spacetime fabric allowing a ship to slip through it and appear at an alternate place nearly instantaneously.

I had a dream some time ago where an alien species invaded and conquered the Earth and killed everyone on the planet for the purposes of colonization. Me and a handful of others hid in a house but were captured. They were about to kill me when one of the beings became interested in an old phonograph machine and demanded I make it work before he would kill me. After some back and forth he agreed to let me and the others live if I showed him which I did. I also made him agree to tell me the secret of how their spaceships can travel through the galaxy as they do. He told me they use "transient flow". He explained that energy is increased behind the ship and decreased in the forward part. Wave emitters cause a bubble to form around the craft and once forward motion is achieved the rest happens very fast. Without the drag of matter and magnetic wave interference, travel is a matter of seconds from one point to the next. Before I had this dream, I did not even know there was such a thing as "transient flow". Anyway, I believe that is how it is done. Create a warp bubble and pop across the universe so to speak.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Transient flow is such a flow where the velocity and pressure changes over time. Transient flows usually occurs during the starting or stopping of a pump, the opening or closing of a tank, or simple changes in tank levels..."

reply to post by Fromabove


There is a thing called hawking radiation. Though still a theory, being proposed by stephen hawking gives it some credibility. The funny thing about hawking radiation is, it doesnt work with the theory of the big bang. If a black hole emits radiation, then it acts like a universal recycler. Its consumes everything that goes into the event horizon and emits it as raw energy. Ready to be reused by the universe. This would result in the black hole "burning out" over time much like a star does, IF its rate of material absorption is less than its rate of energy emission.

The idea of hawking radiation is that the boundary where the event horizon meets normal time and space represents a boundary between dimensions. Dimensions in this case being an area that experiences different laws of physics than the normal universe we see. At this boundary line, the event horizon experiences a wave or bubbling effect (like the surface of a choppy lake). This collision between the 2 boundaries creates a particle and a anti particle. The anti-particle, being created on the black hole side, gets sucked into the black hole causing a net loss for the black hole. A particle is created on the space/time boundary and gets sent into time/space, cause a net gain.
However, because a particle(+1) and anti-particle(-1) are created, it does not result in a net gain or creation of energy for the universe as a whole.
it does however represent a net gain for the space/time side of the universe, and a net loss for the blackhole side of the universe.

another good way to think about how the boundary collision creates does it magic is by understanding photosynthesis. when A photon slams into the chlorophyll, it excites an electron. That electron then becomes unexcited and releases energy. Its sort of the same idea.

The settlement of this question will tell us a lot about the universe.

[edit on 11/27/2009 by VonDoomen]

Originally posted by VonDoomen


Okay, I can see how this a theory, but Im having trouble understanding

"one of the ways it is different from regular matter is that its particles and antiparticles are exactly the same. I think this is to explain why it doesn't interact with regular matter except through gravity."

if the particles are "the same" how can they act differently.

Oops. I didn't write that very clearly at all, did I?

Regular matter has particles and anti-particles, you combine them and you get annihilation.

Dark matter just has one kind of particle, and sometimes when you combine them you sometimes get annihilation, sometimes they just bounce.

With regular matter particles have the opposite charge to antiparticles, like charges repel each other, opposites attractm and through this you get interaction.

Dark matter particles exist in some limbo state between matter and antimatter, so don't interact with regular particles, except through gravity, and can't be detected by electromagnetic radiation. (As far as I understand, really I think it's all just a hack to get the sums to add up.)

Also, with dark matter composing 90-95% of the universe, its collision would be much more often. And on top of that, matter/anti-matter collisions produce the most energy, complete conversion of matter into energy.

Yes there's a lot of it, but it's really spread out. You know the way space is a vacuum right? Well actually space is not a vacuum. It's full of a really really thinly spread out mixture of gas and dust called the interstellar medium. The particles in this cloud are spread out so finely, they hardly ever collide. Pressure is basically a measure of how often the molecules in a gas are colliding with one another, and out in space the pressure is almost 0, i.e. no collisions. Dark matter exists in clouds like this, mostly towards the centre of the galaxy. There's lots of it, but it's spread out. Space is very big.

ALSO, DO NOT CONFUSE ANTI-MATTER WITH DARK MATTER.
They are 2 completely different concepts. We actualy have and can produce Anti-matter in minute quantities. Dark matter we have no freakin clue.

Don't worry, I know the difference.

There's a certain 'f' word I'd like to use here, I'll replace it with 'fig'... FIG THAT!.. Gets up to light speed within either a few days or few decades!?
It would still take 4+ years to reach our nearest star, let alone any exoplanets or anything of interest. Not to mention that if you're doing a long haul trip there's a significant chance that upon your return everyone you know would have popped their clogs a long time ago..

I say we hold out for a wormhole creating ship.

Originally posted by Outrageo
.................

Ok - so who wants to go for a ride?

Except that Dark matter/dark energy will annihilate any matter it comes in contact with.

Not to mention that in order to make a blackhole you need to harness the power of a star, and a "satellite powered laser" would not harness enough energy to open a black hole.

This is not as easy as it sounds. As far as I know we do not have the technology to harness the power of a star, hence we cannot open a black hole.

As a side note I know many people think that the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) will create a black hole, but it won't. Even a particle accelerator that large does not even come close to harnessing the power of a star.

Originally posted by Silicis n Volvo
this solves nothing...id be surprised if the cleverest minds on earth really did think of this because it shows a complete lack of thought.

just our galaxy alone is millions of light years across...we can not see our entire galaxy but from what we on earth can see with our most advanced technology is stars that are thousands of light years away

if this black hole/dark matter idea were used your say it would get us to near the speed of light?? so it would still take thousands of years to get even a tiny distance from our own planet (when compared to the size of the universe) stars that are 10,000 light years away are still only in our own back yard when compared to the universe. we may be able to get to stars that are a few light years away with this idea but we have already studied nearby stars and havnt found any ET life around them. so this would be evidence to disprove aliens using this method. unless someone proves einsteins theory of relativity wrong by traveling faster than light or teleportation is advanced enough to work inter-planetary or even a method for bending space is invented then a simple spaceship traveling at the speed of light is not good enough to traverse the galaxy let alone the unvierse.

silly thread imo

Silly reply IMO unless we theorize and come up with new ideas space travel will never be possible nothing wrog with thinking outside the box

Just to add to the previous post:

To all the people putting this article down because there's no way we could build these things, you're kind of missing the point.

This article is just showing that these things are theoretically possible within the current understanding of physics. They are completely beyond our abilities from an engineering perspective, and nobody seriously expects them to be built. These guys are just throwing out ideas, and a big part of it is not to design some form of interstellar travel but to act as a thought experiment to test the theoretical soundness of physics.

Oh, yeah I should also add that publishing a paper on how to travel to distant stars is a good way of getting into the popular press and thereby upping your profile/funding.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by georgejetson]

Well, Earthlings - you certainly have some strong opinions about this Black Hole traveling business. That's good! Examine - ponder - debate - consider. These are the ways we can get to the truth of the matter.

This should help:

I found a copy of the FULL (20page) original scientific paper as written by Dr. Louis Crane and Dr. Shawn Westmoreland, of Kansas State University.

It is entitled, ARE BLACK HOLE STARSHIPS POSSIBLE? and can be downloaded free by clicking the link embedded in the title here.

ABSTRACT: We investigate whether it is physically possible to build starships or power plants using the Hawking radiation of an artificial black hole as a power source. The proposal seems to be at the edge of possibility, but quantum gravity effects could change the picture.

I suggest you download (or simply click and read) the article and then find passages to either support or refute. In my opinion, though the authors may be making a few assumptions regarding practical applications, the science, and certainly the math behind the conceptual application of the technology appears sound.

As in the OP, I was particularly intrigued by the scientist's thoughts as expressed in Part VII. of their paper, which they called, "A New Approach to SETI". Specifically,

We can either speculate on what humanity might achieve in the distant future or we can speculate on what a hypothetical extraterrestrial civilization might have already done. The first line of thought postpones the possibility of any tangible results indefinitely into the future. On the other hand, the second line of thought raises a legitimate scientific question that could be settled by contemporary or near-term astronomical observations. We can ask ourselves what an extraterrestrial BH starship or other high technology would look like from Earth and proceed to look for it, if possible.

Alright, then. Why don't we start looking?? (Perhaps "we" already are, hmmm...? Have "we" found anything? Will "we" even be told if ET is found?)

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


your confusing dark matter with anti matter.

anti matter collides/annihilates matter.

dark matter does not interact with normal matter except through gravity.

if dark matter only reacts with matter through gravity then how do we know that dark matter isnt really just gravity ! How can we tell the difference between the two ?

Hi, traveling UFO fans.

When, and that is IF we survive until then, when we will "travel"
between stars, it will not be in a material form.

As I have often said elsewhere:
About UFOs, here are my finds/thoughts, (that I did not invent):

1- Some UFOs come from someWHERE.

2- Some UFOs come from someWHEN !

3- Some travel by moving; entities 1st to 5th density.

4- Some travel by thought; entities 6th and higher density.

5- All in the universe is entangled. [What the BLEEP!? down the rabbit hole].

6- There exist: space/time & time/space,
meaning:
**WE** can move 3 ways in space, in one time line.
**THEY** can move 3 ways in time, in one space. (without moving).

7- One day, science will tell us:
! All universe's matter is made of solid light !

8- The new ***theory of everything*** !
www.ted.com...

9- Some UFOs are build in a factory by 3rd density entities, like us.
Some UFOs are "thought formed" by the 6th density entities !
Some entities don't even need UFOs.

10- There are positive and negative 4th and 5th density entities.
6th & higher density entities are positive only ! Benevolent !
Our mentality, our profoundness, our life's services to others
decide which polarity of 4th and 5th density entities will visit us.

11- and stuff I forgot. . .? B-)

And if I may add : read the Ra material in my signature, and the
[My Favorite Sites] box in my profile, and you will have A LOT more answers !

Blue skies.

Originally posted by sapien82
if dark matter only reacts with matter through gravity then how do we know that dark matter isnt really just gravity ! How can we tell the difference between the two ?

Ok good question. I'm not sure that I can explain it properly, but I'll try.

So when you have really massive things they are capable of bending light. This leads to a phenomenon called gravitational lensing where some really big object in the sky distorts our view of everything behind it.

When things are very obviously out of whack - ie they look all stretched and distorted - then this is called strong lensing. It's usually caused by clusters of galaxies.
This image shows the path of the light around the galaxy cluster



ANd this shows what we see when we look up at the sky:


That's strong lensing, where things are very obviously warped, and we can see an object at the centre of this warping that is really big.

Sometimes things are more subtle than this. Astronomers take wide field images of the sky and run them through a statistical calculation to see if there is some kind of alignment that is not apparent to the naked eye. When they find this it's called weak lensing.

In this situation things appear to be kind of lined up, but it's not obvious what's causing this alignment. It appears that something is causing gravitational lensing, but thins something is invisible. This is the stuff they call dark matter.

So to get to answering your question. Using Occam's Razor, when faced with two equally valid possibilities we always go with the simplest one. The choice is that either a) we need to completely rework our understanding of gravity and therefore relativity, or b) we assume there's something there that we just don't have the ability to detect. B is a much simpler choice, so until we have a good reason to discard it, it's what we'll go with for now.

here is something I wanted to share here if anyone is interested -

I recently read a story in a magazine about a guy (from my country) that has taken ayahuasca, and among other things he saw, he was contacted by aliens that looked like classic Greys

He asked them questions about their technology and life in general, and they told him that they use what they call 'The Void' (nothingness) as a source of infinite energy for all their technology and interstellar/dimensional travel

so, this story about scientists suspicions could be just a misinterpretation of the truth?

aliens also spoke about The Void/Nothingness as The Creator of all life energy, and they call it a paradox... life is a paradox of nothingness

ok, now you start attacking me




[edit on 29-11-2009 by donhuangenaro]

reply to post by donhuangenaro


Getting high can be a lot of fun. You shouldn't get too carried away with the stuff people say while off their faces though.

He asked them questions about their technology and life in general, and they told him that they use what they call 'The Void' (nothingness) as a source of infinite energy for all their technology and interstellar/dimensional travel

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, you can only change its form.


[edit on 29-11-2009 by georgejetson]

I know many here at ATS consider Bob Lazar disingenuous, confused, irreverent or worse, but in researching this topic further, I found the parallels to this discussion intriguing.

Lazar's discussion regarding Gravity Propulsion and Wavefront interstellar travel would be facilitated by the black hole "jump" mentioned previously. His S-4 ship (below) might utilize a black hole for the "big" jumps, then implement his "Delta" configuration to accelerate between a local group of star systems.



Another interesting source I'm paging through at the moment is a book entitled, "Interstellar Travel: Past, Present and Future" The author, John W. Macvey makes a credible, if rather simplistic, argument for the use of black holes by ET civilizations for their intragalactic journeys.

A reviewer sums up Macvey's monologue fairly well:

The book spans a wide variety of topics within each part. The interstellar travel part hits upon the vastness of space, chemical and fusion rockets, slow moving generational space arks, space curvature, non-space (i.e., hyperspace), wormholes, blackholes, time dilatation, and tachyons. The author concludes this part with an incredibly enjoyable discussion of problems one might face while attempting to navigate while traveling at near light speed. The extraterrestrial life part touches upon the chemistry of aliens, estimating the number of possible extraterrestrial civilizations (i.e., the Drake function), possible extraterrestrial contact in ancient history, and a discussion about possible contact in recent history.

Yes! UFOs are mentioned in this book, but don't roll your eyes because the author does not get fanatical about the topic. He is mainly presenting UFOs in the context that some extraterrestrial civilization might have perfected interstellar travel in our past (i.e., ancient astronauts) or maybe even our present. I thought it was a good tie-in independent of ones views on the topic of UFOs.

If you care to check this out at an incredible bargain, Amazon still has this book available for only $0.08 cents US.

Spend a little - learn a lot! What a deal...

Originally posted by TrueBrit
I have a question. This black hole drive right ? If I read this thread correctly , folks think this could be built now ? I personaly find this hard to believe since we are on a planet where we still burn fossil fuel to move around.

we still burn fossil fuels because the government can still make billions from it while they still can...there is much more advanced methods for generating enough energy to run our planet but if the government release them now before using all the fossil fuels that are left then they will miss out on billions in money.