Dark Power: Scientists suspect aliens using Black Hole , page 1
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Topic started on 25-11-2009 @ 03:04 PM by Outrageo
We've all heard about the intriguing theories for interstellar travel via black holes, wormholes, and similar electrogravitic cosmic catalysts, a la Hawking, et al.

Scientists are taking this idea increasingly seriously. Along with the exciting and encouraging new developments in the fledgling field of astrobiology embraced by NASA, universities, and many here at ATS, now comes added credibility for solving the biggest argument of all: overcoming the immense distances (and thus, time) needed to traverse interstellar space.



New Scientist published an article today, entitled "Dark power: Grand designs for interstellar travel. Fascinating reading in it's own right, if for no other reason than to validate the growing acceptance among earthling scientists of this mode of travel, yet...

What I found especially interesting, was the segue in the article from discussing this as a possible method for humans to someday "reach for the stars" to one which suggest:

...which raises an interesting question: could an advanced alien civilisation already be cruising the Milky Way aboard black hole starships?


Ok - so we've become a bit weary with all the "disclosure" banter in these forums. Yet, here are scientists -mathematicians no less - clearly postulating, if not outright endorsing the idea that alien beings have most likely utilized this technology already. Dr. Louis Crane of Kansas State University in Manhattan, goes on to say,

...so perhaps looking for black hole starships would a fruitful way to hunt for extraterrestrial intelligence. As the black hole powering the starship emits its Hawking radiation, it would shudder and send a ripple through space-time. We might be able to detect such ripples, otherwise known as gravitational waves, here on Earth.


So here we have yet another method expressly designed to "FIND E.T." - but that's not all: Included are rudimentary plans for building your OWN starship.

Yes boys and girls, collect enough cereal boxtops (and quite a few Billion dollars) and you can build your very own Black Hole Jumper. Here you go...



Ok - so who wants to go for a ride?

[edit:fixed link]


[edit on 11/25/2009 by Outrageo]


reply posted on 25-11-2009 @ 03:16 PM by Outrageo
reply to post by loner007


Yes, thanks loner - I agree with your comments. However, I'd suggest reading the New Scientist article as linked in the OP - some new mathematical models are presented there which considers some of the previous limitations you point out.

Happy trails...



reply posted on 25-11-2009 @ 03:33 PM by Outrageo
Originally posted by TrueBrit
... [it] would have to be absolutely bleedin enourmous , just to contain the energy required to create such a thing in the first place. How the hell would you get that in orbit ? Would you build it in space?


Yes, enormous is necessary - and very cool, IMHO, TB. And yes, I believe it would be built in space (trying to loft something like that from the surface would be ludicrous).

And what's wrong with that? The Chinese appear to be planning to get to the moon in a relative hurry - for the explicit purpose of being the first to mine resources and bounce them up to lunar orbit. There are plenty of raw materials much more easily accessible 'out there' and overcoming Earth's gravity, etc., would be the moot point. Construction at, say, one of the L-5 points sounds feasible.

To me, a much larger obstacle would be the "Dark Power" propulsion drive. As you can see, the schematic offerred is rather light on 'details' in this regard.

Earthlings obviously have some work to do...

Having said that - to me, what is FAR more immediately encouraging is to consider that ALL of these issues could have easily and long ago been solved by alien civilizations.

Think about it in the context of all this disclosure hoopla and the naysayer skeptic types constantly chiming in about how 'impossible' it is to travel the great distances between stars (much less galaxies).

Well, here we have some rather staid, down-to-Earth (excuse the pun) mathematicians that are saying that such a thing is not only possible, but may not be all that difficult to pull off.

If we lowly, primitive humans can conceive of it, surely beings far more advanced than us may have already put such a concept into practice.

That's not so hard to imagine, is it?


reply posted on 25-11-2009 @ 04:05 PM by Matrix Rising
reply to post by Outrageo


S&F

Good find. I'm glad people are thinking outside of the cave.

There's a lot to explore and we need to take these things into account.



reply posted on 25-11-2009 @ 04:29 PM by jkrog08
reply to post by Outrageo


Interesting article and postulates, thanks for sharing (S/F...). There have been and continues to be a decent bit of research into super-advanced propulsion technology, with some being FTL (faster than light). In fact from the late 90's to 2002 NASA had a Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Program, but it was subsequently shut down due to budget constraints, although research carries on, just on more individual levels. There is some promising research, here is a few more technologies that aliens may use or that we may be able to use to explore our universe someday....



The Kardashev scale is a method of measuring a civilization's level of technological advancement. The scale is only theoretical and in terms of an actual civilization highly speculative; however, it puts energy consumption of an entire civilization in a cosmic perspective. It was first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet Russian astronomer Nikolai Kardashev. The scale has three designated categories called Type I, II, and III. These are based on the amount of usable energy a civilization has at its disposal, and the degree of space colonization. In general terms, a Type I civilization has achieved mastery of the resources of its home planet, Type II of its solar system, and Type III of its galaxy.[1]
wikipedia.org

wikipedia.org

So we can see from the above graph that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a civilization in the range of a BILLION years more advanced could develop this type of technology(and its energy requirements).
For a brief reference lets look at our closest star and assume these reported creatures come from there( they are believed to come from Zeta Reticuli,a much furtherstar system that is almost ten times as far).Proxima Centauri is the closest star to our own, and it is roughly 4 lightyears away(a lightyear is the time it takes light, the fastest known speed, to travel one year).So lets hypothetically try to make the journey on a spacecraft that is capable of our own space shuttles speed. While the space shuttle can travel at an astounding 17,580 mph(in orbit) it would take 175,000 years(well beyond 100’s of life times and thus unfeasible) to reach Proxima Centauri!

Warp Drive

Warp drive is popularly shown in the Star Trek series. This type of propulsion however is not sci-fi and is being seriously researched by many theoretical physicist,including ones at NASA’s Breakthrough Propulsion Labs.This type of drive while requiring a very large energy source is feasible according to our current understanding(limited) of physics and the Universe. The principle is simple; you contract space in front of the craft then expand it behind and thus you ride a ‘wave’ of space –time while not physically moving the craft itself and thus not violating relativity’s causality.The most important breakthrough that I know of in the warp drive field was made in the early nineties by Dr. Alcubierre,a theoretical physicist.The math is there, the mechanics is there, but the main thing needed; an understanding of how to build a engine capable of doing such a thing and how it would warp space-time is still far out of reach as is known today.

An FTL propulsion system - based on Alcubierre’s warp drive - that utilizes dark energy to propel a spacecraft faster than light has been proposed, and could revolutionize space travel according to an article on the website of Cosmos Magazine [4]. The concept is supported by the calculations of several physicists at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. Comparable to the warp drive concept of Star Trek, their theory states that a spacecraft could travel at warp velocity in a bubble of space-time, by manipulating dark energy — the mysterious invisible force allegedly responsible for the observed acceleration in the expansion of the universe. Essentially, the spacecraft would remain in the same place, while space-time ahead of the craft would shrink, expanding again behind it.
wikipedia.org


wikipedia.org

In 1996, NASA established the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Program, which sponsored some speculative work on warp drives. This program was discontinued in 2002{curiously IMO).
While thought experiments on the wilder shores of theoretical physics continue to be formed, no scheme that may allow travel at warp velocity has yet been devised that has also been accepted by mainstream science. Some physicists have proposed a model of FTL travel, formulated in the context of Lorentzian manifolds, which are used in general relativity to construct space-time models. However, contrary to a common misconception, these models are in no sense solutions to the Einstein field equation, and they give no knowledge as to how a warp bubble might actually be established.




”Hyperdrive/Wormhole Tunneling”

“Hyperdrive” or more precisely “wormhole tunneling” is a very common form of travel in the sci-fi Universe. Hyperdrive is the slang term for either an extremely fast form of propulsion or a form of propulsion that allows a craft to enter a “sub or hyperspatial” realm. As is common real science has taken these terms from sci-fi for the real thing that is being researched. The principle behind a hyperdrive(this word is also much shorter than ‘wormhole tunneler’,lol) is that you can bend and curve space-time, since space-time itself is curved and mallable.

The principle uses the postulation that two conjoined throats of black holes with a one way matter stream can be used to travel possibly infinite distance in a matter of minutes or seconds. In this way you are temporarily leaving our ‘real space’ and entering a ‘corridor’ in-between our space-time, commonly referred to as “subspace,hyperspace”,or a newer,more original term being used by the physics community;”space-time foam.”You can look at it like this:Instead of the shortest distance between point A and B being a straight line it is actually the conjoining of the two points by bending the space between them.

This too will take an even more massive amount of energy than the warp drive but could result in much faster travel times. The technology required to even achieve this or what is even conceivable(engine and mechanics wise) is extreme at the least to comprehend, and at current is far off and needs major breakthroughs in physics(more so than the warp drive).The only schematic that has received any attention is a very, very massive star size device that still isn’t possible in the conceivable future unless there is a breakthrough. Some main theories are as follows:

Can we ever achieve speed faster than light? Yes, say contemporary physicists disagreeing with Einstein’s theory of relativity. Advanced alien civilizations are tunneling through with speed much faster than light all the time. The problem is skeptics question such happenings with old non-contemporary Physics.

In recent years, some physicists have conducted experiments in which faster-than-light (FTL) speeds were measured. On the other hand, Einstein's theory of special relativity gives light speed as the absolute speed limit for matter and information.
The Berkeley group gives a general overview of their research at physics.berkley.edu .

In one of the experiments, where a single photon tunneled through a barrier and its tunneling speed (not a signal speed!) was 1.7 times light speed, is described in Steinberg, A.M., Kwiat, P.G. & R.Y. Chiao 1993: "Measurement of the Single-Photon Tunneling Time" in Physical Review Letter 71, S. 708—711.
Scientists in recent days are finding that exceeding speed of light through wave propagation in a tunneling experiment is nothing new. The scientific think tanks are now confident that advanced alien civilizations are constantly speeding through the wormhole tunnels with speeds exceeding 100 times that of light.
That is how the intergalactic travel across 100 light years can take place in less than a day and may be in a few hours. Of course the wormholes themselves bend time and space. The tunnel speed of 100 times faster than light is fast speed when you consider that time and space is attached to each other as evident in our physical universe. But that speed is easy to achieve once you can detach time from space and learn to speed in space slightly above the speed of light. Fast forwarding detached time spatial creates the final magic – it provides the ultimate speed multiplier and one achieve the speed faster that 100 times that of light.
There is another trick to the whole thing. Extraterrestrial aliens of advanced order can utilize the wave propagation for linear transportation of an entity from the physical universe or the parallel universe through the wormhole. The biggest challenge for them is not the speed but keeping track of space and time spatial characteristics.





Good video on some theorized technologies...


Taken from www.abovetopsecret.com...





[edit on 11/26/2009 by jkrog08]


reply posted on 26-11-2009 @ 02:20 AM by Outrageo
reply to post by jkrog08


Excellent follow-up - thanks for the supplemental info.

Sagan's book Contact had a rather detailed description (fiction, of course - but ingeniously visualized) on what it might be like to travel through a black hole.

Of course, we have no way of knowing (yet) what this would actually feel like, though my instinct tells me that if the many other challenges in accomplishing this as a means of transportation are overcome, then seemingly unconquerable obstacles (such as traversing the singularity at the center) has a work-around solution as well.

Surely, if nothing else, if our own scientists are able to soon detect the slight perturbations on either side of the event horizon indicating the passing of a craft through such a portal, then even if we ourselves are decades if not centuries from doing the same thing ourselves, we will at least know that it can be done - and that other sentient beings have safely done it.

If such a thing can, in fact, be validated, as the OP article suggests, then I will die a happier person than I otherwise would have without such an affirmation. I'm sure I won;t be alone with such sentiments.

Happy Thanksgiving to those in the States, and goodwill to all.

We are, for the time being at least, all one planet...

[edit on 11/26/2009 by Outrageo]


reply posted on 26-11-2009 @ 04:57 AM by donhuangenaro
first you have to find a black hole, hence prove they exist in the first place
(the odds are they do not even exist) and then theorize about black hole travel:

www.holoscience.com...

There are fundamental problems facing physicists. First, the real world is a complicated place so simplifying assumptions have to be made in choosing a mathematical model. The choice is crucial for the following steps. Second, mathematical rules are applied to the symbols as a tool that may provide insights into the physical phenomenon under investigation. Third, the results must be translated back into ordinary language.

In steps one and three physicists are generally far from perfect. In the first step, the “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” tendency is a trap. For example, Eddington applied an inappropriate model of gas behavior inside stars that allowed him to dismiss electrical effects. In the second step there is a tendency in astrophysics for the mathematics to run into infinities. A process euphemistically called “renormalization” is used to deal with this problem. But as any high school student knows, there is nothing normal about infinity. Introducing infinity into an equation, effectively dividing by zero, allows you to “prove” that 1 = 2.

Running into infinities in mathematical models should result in questioning the appropriateness of the model and the limits of its applicability. However, astrophysicists simply plug in a measured result and carry on. But it is the last step that exposes physicists at their worst. Here, they use words or phrases, which have real meaning, in a whimsical or sloppy way when they mean something more mathematically abstruse. For example, using the word “dimension” when referring to more than the three spatial dimensions, as if a ruler can also be used to measure the extra dimensions. It gives rise to terms like four-dimensional “warped space” and “space-time,” or sometimes that weird cloth, the “fabric of space-time.” We also have the logically indefensible “parallel universe.” None make physical or logical sense.

The black hole is a choice example where all three steps have failed. In the first step, gravity is the only tool considered. For example, from a graduate textbook on astrophysics*: “No known physical force can stop the self-swallowing of mass that makes a black hole.” That is a model-dependent declaration. The force of gravity is effectively zero when compared to the electric force. If you allow for the electrical structure of matter, the almost 2,000 fold difference in mass of the electron and proton will ensure that in a strong gravitational field charge separation will operate to prevent compression. Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars. Exotic theoretical objects like neutron stars and black holes are impossible. Even internal nuclear fires are unnecessary to sustain a star. The standard model of stars fails if the wrong tool, gravity, is used exclusively.

In the second step, one infinity is used to counter another. Infinities abound in the literature on black holes. The infinitely weak force of gravity is balanced by postulating an almost infinitely dense object – the black hole. Playing with infinities like this can give you any result you desire. It sidesteps the fact that we do not understand the real nature of gravity, or the relationship between mass and matter, or the electrical response of matter to gravity, or the electrical nature of the universe. That’s a great deal of ignorance to be swallowed up, even by a hypothetical black hole!


even the first illustration you used is illogical, if black hole is real, how can anything escape from it's center?

to me personally, this story about traveling through something that doesn't even exist is like science fiction story (with emphasis on fiction)




reply posted on 26-11-2009 @ 05:16 AM by nik1halo
reply to post by jkrog08


Some good postings here and some interesting theories.

Not meaning to be picky here, but:


(a lightyear is the time it takes light, the fastest known speed, to reach something).


Wrong. A lightyear is the distance that light (at the universal constant speed of light ~186,000 miles/sec) would travel over the period of a year. It is a measurement of distance, not time.


reply posted on 26-11-2009 @ 06:44 AM by reject
reply to post by Outrageo


we don't even know if dark matter exists, much less handle it


reply posted on 26-11-2009 @ 07:44 AM by Matrix Rising
reply to post by djusdjus


We don't know if parallel universes exist or Hawking radiation but this is science.

If we only theorize about what we know and understand now, then we will never get anywhere.

This is why Einstein said:

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

If we stay in the box of what we know and understand and we don't think and imagine outside of the box, then we are doomed as a species.
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