Climategate: GOP Opens Probe Into Climate-Change E-Mails

Climategate: GOP Opens Probe Into Climate-Change E-Mails

www.huffingtonpost.com

Congressional Republicans are investigating e-mails stolen from a British climate change research center that they say show scientists attempting to suppress data that does not support man-made global warming.

(visit the link for the full news article)

This should be interesting. Personally I believe in an anthropogenic element in the current climate changes we are experiencing. However this belief is based on the scientific communities apparent consensus.

If the consensus were to shift or if this case proves to be true and the widespread fraudulent 'cover up' of data that disproves an human connection I would undoubtedly become skeptical.

If it simply turns out that only this one organization was working to suppress data that alone will do massive damage to the credibility of the anthropogenic climate crew.

One way or the other the Republicans are going to politicize this so we will find out.

www.huffingtonpost.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

People need to know how this fits in to the greater conspiracy of the Copenhagen Treaty. We have just a couple of weeks to get people to understand this. President Obama is about to give away our national sovereignty because of this global warming hoax. If anyone here cares you really need to look at the thread linked in my signature file below.

Originally posted by factbeforefiction
People need to know how this fits in to the greater conspiracy of the Copenhagen Treaty.

Although I have a hard time believing the USA is going to give up it's sovereignty I will check out your link and give them a good look before I judge. Thanks for the heads up.

Does anyone remember the flack Bush recieved when it was believed his administration was stifling Global Warming Scientists? The media and conspiracy theorists nearly blew a fuse.

Now that we know that Global Warming Scientist are flat out liars, where is the outrage???

Global Warming is a Hoax, and now we finally have proof!!!!

Originally posted by Carseller4
Does anyone remember the flack Bush recieved when it was believed his administration was stifling Global Warming Scientists? The media and conspiracy theorists nearly blew a fuse.

Yes this is true. More accurately though it was the incredibly anti-science views of the Bush administration that had people upset, not just on the climate science front.

I think you will also see people equally upset with this particular University should this accusation be proven.

Now that we know that Global Warming Scientist are flat out liars, where is the outrage???

Well this particular instance and the University and scientists involved are getting quite a bit of heat. For example this Google News Search of "Climate Gate" links to 1000's of articles. This is fairly called outrage.

Global Warming is a Hoax, and now we finally have proof!!!!

Global Warming is quite real and as it stands today there is a sizable consensus within the scientific community that supports the notion that humans are a contributing factor.

This issue is a fairly isolated incident and one that hos not yet played out. We will have to wait and see what becomes of the issue. It could be Sen. Inhofe, a well known skeptic, using this as a means to smear the science regardless of what the emails contained.

I care about polution. But they have twisted this crap into something else.
Carbon Credits? please........

They can take this whole thing and cram it!

They are using this a scam for power.

Originally posted by j2000
I care about polution. But they have twisted this crap into something else.
Carbon Credits? please........

They can take this whole thing and cram it!

They are using this a scam for power.

What on earth makes you think that TPTB would need to make anything up in order to take more power from the people?

Originally posted by Animal
What on earth makes you think that TPTB would need to make anything up in order to take more power from the people?

Global Neocommunism, aka global technological totalitarianism, needs some sizzle to sell it. Its about bankrupting us, deindustrializing us, robbing our prosperity... to prevent the masses from being able to access or afford looming life extension technologies. They've already plundered us, sure, but now they need a tax or rather global scale price fixing to really drive it home. Poverty inherently robs your life expectancy, and you could call this a population reducting scheme, or at least a population who can extend their lives sceme, and too many humans is in most of their Malthusian propaganda.

The only real twist here is that poverty usually breeds higher birthrates, and is bad for environments where humans live. But what the elites are really concerned about the power their wannabe-immortality represents.

I can link you lots of info on life extension tech's and the revolutionary scientist elite.

ON TOPIC EMAIL NEWS:

I tried hard to balance the needs of the science and the IPCC , which were not always the same.

www.smalldeadanimals.com...

From: Keith Briffa To: [email protected] Subject: Re: quick note on TAR Date: Sun Apr 29 19:53:16 2007
Mike
your words are a real boost to me at the moment. I found myself questioning the whole process and being often frustrated at the formulaic way things had to be done - often wasting time and going down dead ends. I really thank you for taking the time to say these kind words . I tried hard to balance the needs of the science and the IPCC , which were not always the same. I worried that you might think I gave the impression of not supporting you well enough while trying to report on the issues and uncertainties . Much had to be removed and I was particularly unhappy that I could not get the statement into the SPM regarding the AR4 reinforcement of the results and conclusions of the TAR. I tried my best but we were basically railroaded by Susan*. I am happy to pass the mantle on to someone else next time. I feel I have basically produced nothing original or substantive of my own since this whole process started. I am at this moment , having to work on the ENV submission to the forthcoming UK Research Assessment exercise , again instead of actually doing some useful research ! Anyway thanks again Mike.... really appreciated when it comes from you very best wishes

We’ve not deleted any emails or data here at CRU.
camirror.wordpress.com...
Phil Jones, Dec 3, 2008:

About 2 months ago I deleted loads of emails, so have very little – if anything at all.

Phil Jones, Nov 24, 2009 Guardian

We’ve not deleted any emails or data here at CRU.

Phil Jones wrote:
>
>> Mike,
> Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
> Keith will do likewise. He's not in at the moment - minor family crisis.
>
> Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don't
> have his new email address.
>
> We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
>
> I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature
> paper!!
>
> Cheers
> Phil

excerpt from this txt file (1212063122)


Proxy Data doesnt show continued warming.
From the emails:

There needs to be a clear statement of why the instrumental and proxy data are shown on the same graph. The issue of why we dont show the proxy data for the last few decades ( they dont show continued warming) but assume that they are valid for early warm periods needs to be explained.

camirror.wordpress.com...

CEI Files Notice of Intent to Sue NASA

spectator.org...

Today, on behalf of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, I filed three Notices of Intent to File Suit against NASA and its Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), for those bodies' refusal - for nearly three years - to provide documents requested under the Freedom of Information Act.

The information sought is directly relevant to the exploding "ClimateGate" scandal revealing document destruction, coordinated efforts in the U.S. and UK to avoid complying with both countries' freedom of information laws, and apparent and widespread intent to defraud at the highest levels of international climate science bodies. Numerous informed commenters had alleged such behavior for years, all of which appears to be affirmed by leaked emails, computer codes and other data from the Climatic Research Unit of the UK's East Anglia University.

Survey of IPCC Climate Experts

"Introduction: Many claim that there is a consensus among scientists that manmade emissions of greenhouse gases, notably carbon dioxide(CO2), are harming global climate. To test the nature of this consensus, we surveyed the U.S. contributors to, and reviewers of the most recent scientific assessment by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)." (DemandDebate.com)

www.prisonplanet.com...

Lord Monckton: Prosecute the Climate Change Criminals

Kurt Nimmo
Infowars
November 24, 2009

Lord Monckton, who challenged Al Gore on man-made climate change and was rebuffed by a gaggle of peevish Democrats, wants the climate “scientists” caught red-handed fiddling with climate stats prosecuted.

“They are not merely bad scientists — they are crooks. And crooks who have perpetrated their crimes at the expense of British and U.S. taxpayers,” writes Monckton. “With Professor Fred Singer, who founded the U.S. Satellite Weather Service, I have reported them to the UK’s Information Commissioner, with a request that he investigate their offenses and, if thought fit, prosecute.”
*SNIP

[edit on 24-11-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I wonder if the hacker got charged, or even found, like the british guy who hacked nasa?

reply to post by heyo


Not yet, but its looking to be a whistleblower leak instead anyways:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

CO2 is “Ultimately A political decision”

Posted by Jeff Id on November 22, 2009
This is absolutely stunning.

We have to think back to all the people who told us over the years that the IPCC is a “scientific organization” . This particular email has some huge implications in it which you really have to read a few times before you can close your jaw. I’ll bold some of the really shocking bits at the top but the rest is for you to work out.

If nothing else, read the first paragraph and try and wrap your head around -first, the concept and second, the beating down of others reasonable points. F…ing amazing.

From: Dave S
To: Shrikant J
Subject: RE: CO2
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:21:35 -0600 (MDT)

I want to make one thing really clear. We ARE NOT supposed to be working
with the assumption that these scenarios are realistic. They are
scenarios-internally consistent (or so we thought) what-if storylines.
You are in fact out of line to assume that these are in some sense
realistic-this is in direct contradiction to the guidance on scenarios
provided by the synthesis team.

If you want to do ‘realistic CO2 effects studies, you must do sensitivity
analyses bracketing possible trajectories. We do not and cannot not and
must not prejudge what realistic CO2 trajectories are, as they are
ultimatley a political decision (except in the sense that reserves and
resources provide an upper bound).

‘Advice’ will be based on a mix of different approaches that must reflect
the fact that we do not have high coinfidence in GHG projections nor full
confidence in climate ystem model projections of consequences.

Dave

On Sun, 16
May 1999, Shrikant [snip] wrote:

> Friends,
>
> I’m enjoying the current debate about CO2 levels. I feel that we are using
> the GCM scenarios, and we MUST use exactly those CO2 levels for crop model
> runs, so all data is consistent. So if we are wrong, we are uniformly wrong
> and adjust our explanations accordingly whenever we agree on things. Now to
> use different data will be hard to explain.
>
>
> Shrikant
>
> Dr. Shrikant

Well I’ll give my interpretation of email number 0926947295.txt anyway. This appears to be an OBVIOUS and open collusion by IPCC heads to again lie to policy makers about the nature and understanding of CO2. They browbeat reasoned opinion in exchange for results. This email should be headlines across the world instead of this little blog. They should be making a hell of a lot of phone calls to these scientists for explanation if the reporters had the guts.

Original article from the 'The Air Vent' Blog

Originally posted by Shirakawa

Climate Change Bombshell: Dr. Tim Ball on the hacked CRU emails

Retired climatologist Dr. Tim Ball discusses how the emails give light into how the alarmist elite hijacked the peer-review process, and more.

[edit on 24-11-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Definately could be.
What can be said but "hmmmmmm"?

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Again, this could all be true or some of it could be true or it could all be hype. Only time will tell. While it is nice of you to post some of the emails in question much remains to be seen.

While I appreciate you pasting in some of the emails in question as they really shed some light on what actually is or was going on. To be fair though while I defiantly see highly questionable activity I also see how some of what we are reading could easily be misunderstood.

As such, like i keep saying, time will tell. If the GOP really does investigate this manner in an honest and open manner the truth will come out.

Another issue I have with this is the notion that this de-values all climate science related to man made contributions. While I have herd that these emails include most of the influential and important scientists who argue for ACC we only have the word of the pundits that this is indeed the case.

Regardless this is a real shame and I do hope heads roll.

Global Warming is a Hoax, and now we finally have proof!!!!

Human influence may be a hoax, but cyclical global warming happens all the time (in relative terms)

reply to post by Animal


Appropriate investigations will go beyond the data we have here. The investigation is already in progress by countless thousands, right now as we speak, including here on this site. Congrats, your thread is part of the investigation, and since its a new thread in Breaking News I figured I'd bombard it with what has been revealed as the other News thread is over 20 pages in and full of hubbub.

Some Noteworthy Emails:

1256747199.txt:

Keith succeeding in being very restrained in his response. McIntyre knew what he was doing when he replaced some of the trees with those from another site.
Cheers
Phil

1255550975.txt:

Kevin,

I didn't mean to offend you. But what you said was "we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment". Now you say "we are no where close to knowing where energy is going". In my eyes these are two
different things -- the second relates to our level of understanding,
and I agree that this is still lacking.

Tom.

++++++++++++++++++

Kevin Trenberth wrote:
> Hi Tom
> How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where
> close to knowing where energy is going or whether clouds are changing to
> make the planet brighter. We are not close to balancing the energy
> budget. The fact that we can not account for what is happening in the > climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless > as we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a > travesty!
> Kevin

Secrecy
1107454306.txt:

At 09:41 AM 2/2/2005, Phil Jones wrote:

Mike, I presume congratulations are in order - so congrats etc !

Just sent loads of station data to Scott. Make sure he documents everything better this time ! And don’t leave stuff lying around on ftp sites - you never know who is trawling them. The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send to anyone. Does your similar act in the US force you to respond to enquiries within 20 days? - our does ! The UK works on precedents, so the first request will test it.We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind. Tom Wigley has sent me a worried email when he heard about it - thought people could ask him for his model code. He has retired officially from UEA so he can hide behind that. IPR should be relevant here, but I can see me getting into an argument with someone at UEA who’ll say we must adhere to it !

From: Phil Jones
To: santer1@XXXX
Subject: Re: A quick question
Date: Wed Dec 10 10:14:10 2008

Ben,
Haven’t got a reply from the FOI person here at UEA. So I’m not entirely confident the numbers are correct. One way of checking would be to look on CA, but I’m not doing that. I did get an email from the FOI person here early yesterday to tell me I shouldn’t be deleting emails - unless this was ‘normal’ deleting to keep emails manageable! McIntyre hasn’t paid his £10, so nothing looks likely to happen re his Data Protection Act email.

Anyway requests have been of three types - observational data, paleo data and who made IPCC changes and why. Keith has got all the latter - and there have been at least 4. We made Susan aware of these - all came from David Holland. According to the FOI Commissioner’s Office, IPCC is an international organization, so is above any national FOI. Even if UEA holds anything about IPCC, we are not obliged to pass it on, unless it has anything to do with our core business - and it doesn’t! I’m sounding like Sir Humphrey here!

1212063122.txt:

From: Phil Jones To: “Michael E. Mann”
Subject: IPCC & FOI
Date: Thu May 29 11:04:11 2008

Mike,
Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment - minor family crisis.
Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.
We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!!
Cheers

From: Phil Jones To: [email protected]
Subject: Fwd: CCNet: PRESSURE GROWING ON CONTROVERSIAL RESEARCHER TO DISCLOSE SECRET DATA
Date: Mon Feb 21 16:28:32 2005
Cc: “raymond s. bradley” , “Malcolm Hughes”

Mike, Ray and Malcolm,

The skeptics seem to be building up a head of steam here ! Maybe we can use this to our advantage to get the series updated !

Odd idea to update the proxies with satellite estimates of the lower troposphere rather than surface data !. Odder still that they don’t realise that Moberg et al used the Jones and Moberg updated series !

Francis Zwiers is till onside. He said that PC1s produce hockey sticks. He stressed that the late 20th century is the warmest of the millennium, but Regaldo didn’t bother
with that. Also ignored Francis’ comment about all the other series looking similar to MBH.

The IPCC comes in for a lot of stick. Leave it to you to delete as appropriate !

Cheers
Phil

PS I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data.

Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !

Options appear to be:

Send them the data

Send them a subset removing station data from some of the countries who made us pay in the normals papers of Hulme et al. (1990s) and also any number that David can remember. This should also omit some other countries like (Australia, NZ, Canada, Antarctica). Also could extract some of the sources that Anders added in (31-38 source codes in J&M 2003). Also should remove many of the early stations that we coded up in the 1980s.

Send them the raw data as is, by reconstructing it from GHCN. How could this be done? Replace all stations where the WMO ID agrees with what is in GHCN. This would be the raw data, but it would annoy them

At 04:53 AM 5/9/2008, you wrote:

Mike, Ray, Caspar,
A couple of things - don’t pass on either…

2. You can delete this attachment if you want. Keep this quiet also, but this is the person who is putting in FOI requests for all emails Keith and Tim have written and received re Ch 6 of AR4. We think we’ve found a way around this…

This message will self destruct in 10 seconds!

Cheers
Phil

1182255717.txt:

1. Think I’ve managed to persuade UEA to ignore all further FOIA requests if the people have anything to do with Climate Audit

.2. Had an email from David Jones of BMRC, Melbourne. He said they are ignoring anybody who has dealings with CA, as there are threads on it about Australian sites.

3. CA is in dispute with IPCC (Susan Solomon and Martin Manning) about the availability of the responses to reviewer’s at the various stages of the AR4 drafts. They are most interested here re Ch 6 on paleo.

Cheers
Phil

From: Phil Jones
To: santer, Tom Wigley
Subject: Re: Schles suggestion
Date: Wed Dec 3 13:57:09 2008
Cc: mann, Gavin Schmidt, Karl Taylor, peter gleckler

Ben,

When the FOI requests began here, the FOI person said we had to abide by the requests. It took a couple of half hour sessions – one at a screen, to convince them otherwise showing them what CA was all about. Once they became aware of the types of people we were dealing with, everyone at UEA (in the registry and in the Environmental Sciences school – the head of school and a few others) became very supportive. I’ve got to know the FOI person quite well and the Chief Librarian – who deals with appeals. The VC is also aware of what is going on –

1219239172.txt:

From: Phil Jones
To: Gavin Schmidt
Subject: Re: Revised version the Wengen paper
Date: Wed Aug 20 09:32:52 2008
Cc: Michael Mann

Gavin,
Almost all have gone in. Have sent an email to Janice re the regional freshening.
On the boreholes I've used mostly Mike's revised text, with bits of
yours making it read a little better.
Thinking about the final bit for the Appendix. Keith should be in later, so
I'll check with him - and look at that vineyard book. I did rephrase the bit
about the 'evidence' as Lamb refers to it. I wanted to use his phrasing - he
used this word several times in these various papers. What he means is his
mind and its inherent bias(es).
Your final sentence though about improvements in reviewing and
traceability is a bit of a hostage to fortune. The skeptics will try to hang on to
something, but I don't want to give them something clearly tangible.
Keith/Tim still getting FOI requests as well as MOHC and Reading. All our
FOI officers have been in discussions and are now using the same exceptions
not to respond - advice they got from the Information Commissioner. As an
aside and just between us, it seems that Brian Hoskins has withdrawn himself
from the WG1 Lead nominations. It seems he doesn't want to have to deal with
this hassle.
The FOI line we're all using is this. IPCC is exempt from any countries FOI - the
skeptics
have been told this. Even though we (MOHC, CRU/UEA) possibly hold relevant info
the IPCC is not part our remit (mission statement, aims etc) therefore we don't
have an obligation to pass it on.
Cheers
Phil

More Emails

If anything, I would like to see the climate change happen, so the science could be proved right, regardless of the consequences. This isn’t being political, it is being selfish.

Cheers, Phil

The other paper by MM is just garbage - as you knew. De Freitas again. Pielke is also losing all credibility as well by replying to the mad Finn as well - frequently as I see it. I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !

An important coverup
An email exchange between several wher eeventually McIntyre explains finding requested data on an ftp and he's told it was the wrong data, as it had major flaws:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hide the Decline

From: Phil Jones
To: ray bradley ,mann@[snipped], mhughes@
[snipped]
Subject: Diagram for WMO Statement
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:31:15 +0000
Cc: k.briffa@[snipped],t.osborn@[snipped]
Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,

Once Tim’s got a diagram here we’ll send that either later today or first thing tomorrow. I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd [sic] from1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline. Mike’s series got the annual land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999 for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.

Thanks for the comments, Ray.

Cheers, Phil
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit

From: Tom Wigley [...]
To: Phil Jones [...]
Subject: 1940s
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:25:38 -0600
Cc: Ben Santer [...]
Phil,
Here are some speculations on correcting SSTs to partly explain the 1940s warming blip. If you look at the attached plot you will see that theland also shows the 1940s blip (as I’m sure you know).
So, if we could reduce the ocean blip by, say, 0.15 degC, then this would be significant for the global mean – but we’d still have to explain the land blip. I’ve chosen 0.15 here deliberately. This still leaves an ocean blip, and i think one needs to have some form of ocean blip to explain the land blip (via either some common forcing, or ocean forcing land, or vice versa, or all of these). When you look at other blips, the land blips are 1.5 to 2 times (roughly) the ocean blips—higher sensitivity plus thermal inertia effects. My 0.15 adjustment leaves things consistent with this, so you can see where I am coming from.
Removing ENSO does not affect this.
It would be good to remove at least part of the 1940s blip, but we are still left with “why the blip”.
Let me go further. If you look at NH vs SH and the aerosol effect (qualitatively or with MAGICC) then with a reduced ocean blip we get continuous warming in the SH, and a cooling in the NH—just as one would expect with mainly NH aerosols.
The other interesting thing is (as Foukal et al. note – from MAGICC) that the 1910-40 warming cannot be solar. The Sun can get at most 10% of this with Wang et al solar, less with Foukal solar. So this may well be NADW, as Sarah and I noted in 1987 (and also Schlesinger later). A reduced SST blip in the 1940s makes the 1910-40 warming larger than the SH (which it currently is not)—but not really enough.
So … why was the SH so cold around 1910? Another SST problem? (SH/NH data also attached.)
This stuff is in a report I am writing for EPRI, so I’d appreciate any comments you (and Ben) might have.
Tom.

where the heck is global warming?

From: Kevin Trenberth
To: Michael Mann
Subject: Re: BBC U-turn on climate
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:57:37 -0600
Cc: Stephen H Schneider , Myles Allen , peter stott , “Philip D. Jones” , Benjamin Santer , Tom Wigley , Thomas R Karl , Gavin Schmidt , James Hansen , Michael Oppenheimer

Hi all

Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming ? We are asking that here in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal is 69F, and it smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about 18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low.

This is January weather (see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last night in below freezing weather).

Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for climate change planning: tracking Earth’s global energy. Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability, 1, 19-27, doi:10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001. [1][PDF] (A PDF of the published version can be obtained from the author.)
***

The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.***

[edit on 25-11-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

The Great Global Warming Swindle for anyone who has not seen it.

video.google.com...=&qvid=the+great+global+warming+swindle&vid=-40 92449199080437781

Scientists claim that regardless of what field you were in, be it cancer or whatever else, they would say they were studying global warming. Because thats how they got funded, as politicians were only to interested in trying to prove it.

So it was in their best interests to find any edvidence that would support this claim.

Whilst we should not pollute the enviroment we live in, its outrageous to charge people money for a natural occurance. The people most responsible for pollution are the corporations, big business, oil companies etc etc. Yet the average joe will probably pay for it.


[edit on 25-11-2009 by Horus12]

Will the main stream media pick up on this? NOT!!!

I'm so glad this kind of stuff is leaking out. Would be better if we could get some personal memos of Al Gore exposed, see what he is saying behind closed doors. But really why bother with all this anyway, we can see they love to fly around on their gulfstreams, telling the rest of us to stop making CO2. We shouldn't even need this kind of thing to know how full of baloney they are, it's right in plain sight for crying out loud!

[edit on 25-11-2009 by elcapitano75]