U.S. won't join landmine ban, administration decides

You all crack me up to no end...


Whining about how the US should come out and BAN them, yet at the same time we are the ones doing the most about getting the obsolete ones REMOVED!

There is no way we are going to ban them because they are the perfect weapon in a warzone. yet afterward, we will spend tons of money to have them cleaned up.


Next thing you know you will want the US to disarm completely....

Gimme a break.. there is a huge difference between violence and senseless violence. War and Illegal War...

Sometimes the inability to find the middle ground on things here at ATS astounds me.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Well if that's true then maybe we should be doing the most to clean them up...aren't we the ones deploying the most? As far as signing the treaty, it would have been a show of solidarity. That's never bad. But in a way I guess it is...solidarity with Cuba and whoever the other non signatories are.

Edit to fix typo and clarify the Cuba point.

[edit on 24-11-2009 by ~Lucidity]

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Nope.

It is not an administrative decision, Obama, Bush or Clinton they don't decide jack about what the military can or can not do, use or manufacture.

Whose decision is it then? Congress? Brass?


If I remember correctly we went to original OSUT around the same time, I was there in 2000. Has 19D training at Knox changed much? Do they still train 19D10D3s on BFVs? I hear they do MOUT and close quarters in OSUT now and that the training is far superior to what we got back before the war.

Is it still true that if "you aint Cav..."?

reply to post by cavscout


Just because you 'know' about them and have used them doesn't make them any better...in fact, because you have used them makes you worse.

Bring on the flaming from your position of 'superior knowledge'. It'll just show you up for what you are...an apologist for dismemberment, death and murder.

reply to post by aorAki


Oh hi, good to meet you. You must be new around here.

I dont support any of the wars we are currently in, or the troops that fight in them. I am not some flag waving blowhard, I am not a fascist, and I am not a war monger.

I accept responsibility for my actions and refuse to accept any of that "we were just doing our job" crap. I am a murdering bastard and I live with the weight of that every day and night. I am now a washed up, PTSD having, conscientious objecting agoraphobic. I have hallucinations and cant leave my house without my wife holding my hand. I am a pathetic peice of crap, a shell of my former self.

I deserve every bit of disrespect for what I did in Iraq and then some, so go ahead and fire away, see if you can make me hurt even more.

HOWEVER, I do know what I am talking about here, and I am in possession of “superior knowledge," sad as that is.

Mines are a very valuable asset to our military forces and if ever said forces are used legitimately, to defend our homeland, mines will be one of the biggest contributing factors when it comes to keeping invading forces away from our homes and out in the open where we will blast them off our land, may God have mercy on our souls.

Now, if you will excuse me, I don’t think I will be back on this thread for a bit.

[edit on 24-11-2009 by cavscout]

Old News, but anyway, the reason we don't sign is that mines/landmines/anti-personnel mines are all a part of the Global Rule and Control Dogma.

Mines are used in conjunction with other types of encirclement/protection/barrier implements to ensure populations of third world stay in limited areas,(so they don't get uppity and think they can go out on their own and provide for their families outside the proscribed manner( wage slavery). (see Clinton Global Initiative)( Billies Boys went into Tsunami ravaged areas 'especially in southern India', to "Give widowed women self-employment work, doing light assembly work( provided by representitives of Big Manufacturing) that can be done while your tot is strapped to your back, Instead of finding a new Husband and taking care of your kid the right way.(not by yourself)( see 'destruction of the family unit as a means to limit political involvement/social betterment). "See" means Google it!.

I worked in a machine shop back in 1990( temp job w/Kelly Services while looking for reg. emp. in my field, took 3 mos.), that manufactured firing pins/casings for small (under 1 ft. dia.) anti-personnel mines, the foreman said that the Govt contract kept him "in business" while the other products(rachet heads for 1/4" drive pnumatic wrenches, and other gen. merch.) made a minimal profit margin.

What I'm getting at is that Capitalism (which I love and will fight to keep as our basis of my country) chases the lowest cost of production, so if you want look at mines as a "jobs program" then so be it! (see previous posts as to the jobs produced( military MOS) by the use/removal of "mines".

By The Way, NO AMERICAN MADE MINE is responsible for the current carnage discussed here, the ones used in africa/asia are SOVIET design/manufacture placed by THEIR OWN GOVT.S'

And remember, every dollar we spend/send on/to places where there are mines is one dollar that is not for use in AMERICA! So, don't whine when you see articles about how there isn't enough food/heating oil/gas/housing/govt. cheese/money to pay down the natl. debt, cause you feel bad for the third world. They Do It To Themselves!

And as a side note about the photo of the kid with 1 leg, how do you know he didn't lose it in a car/cart mishap, or from infection of what was a "scratch" which went septic do to poor hygene, or maybe a hyena bit it off, or it was so horribly mal-formed at birth that it was better to cut it off than make him drag it behind him for the rest of his life, etc., etc., A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it can also be a propoganda tool to do evil with!( mis-represent a fact to effect public opinion)

Any treaty/pact/agreement with the UN or any other country in this world will ALWAYS be a negative for US, as the rest of the world is JEALOUS of our freedom/power/standard of living, and will always be looking for ways to destroy us. So don't be a ninny! Stand up and say "EAT ME COMMIE SCUM" and be happly/grateful you weren't born in sub-saharan africa to a tribal toilet bearer/cleaner.(yes, they have that life classification, its called un-touchable, etc.)

Wake Up! Work daily to un-brainwash yourself!

Originally posted by cavscout
Is it still true that if "you aint Cav..."?

You ain't sh!T

Yes, it is still true, because WE ARE THE CAVALRY!
As it was back in my first enlistment as a 19D too, the OSUT hasn't changed much. The training for the most part is improved, so is technology. Not all cycles get the fullest, and some people just never learn.

It has recently changed how ever, as now it is Basic and now seperate AIT instead of the old One Station Unit Training we had.

Off topic banter however, but it has relevence in the fact that other than our MOS the Army has EOD who know these skills. None other than our primary MOS's are certified in these forms of munitions. I can't speak for infantry but, I never saw them deal with IEDs or explosives, it was always Scouts who escorted "route clearance" and EOD personel.

If EOD can not respond to an explosive hazard, Scouts are able to. So the weight of having that training measures in.

I put this on a very short list of things this administration has done right.

If you'd ever been to war, you'd probably have a different view of the tactical value of landmines.

Originally posted by cavscout
Again, a case of going off half cocked without knowing what you are talking about.

I'm sure some are magnetically triggered. I never said they aren't. It is true there are other designs which are weight based. Since you are an expert in this field you should know this...

The details are irrelevant, whether they offer some slight use to the military is irrelevant, what is relevant is that there are tens of thousands of dead and disabled children because of them. You have to be pretty stuck up to dismiss that one.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

Well kf that's true then maybe we should be doing the most to clean them up...aren't we the ones deploying the most? As far as signing the treaty, it would have been a show of solidarity. That's never bad. But in a way I guess it is...with Cuba and whoever the other non signatories are.

Actually, I don't recall getting any data points on who actually uses the most of them. And it very well might be the US. If it is, then obviously we have an obligation to be the worlds top spender on cleaning them up.

I still think an outright ban would have put us in a very precarious situation.

HOWEVER, it might be a way to lead the world on this.

Yet it stands to reason to me, that when fighting in some place like Afghanistan... you are going to employ people who use this tactic.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I put this on a very short list of things this administration has done right.

You made me smile!

Originally posted by ADVISOR
If EOD can not respond to an explosive hazard, Scouts are able to. So the weight of having that training measures in.

Is this something that is happening often over there? I don’t remember actually doing ANY disarming of mines and I.E.D.s over there. Where I was, at least, we usually had little robots for the few times we detected explosives before detonation. Of course, as a scout I was TRAINED to take care of the explosives, but never had to deal with it in real life. I was in the expeditionary forces, left Iraq in April of '04 and discharged with a medical separation by Christmas '04.

I was 2/2 ACR out of Polk, we took Sadr City and held it till 1st Cav replaced us and it went to hell.

Back then the primary role of a Scout was neighborhood sweeps, and convoy escort for the first 6 months or so and then we took over the training of the ICDC Iraqi Army, a job normally for SF but they were all in Kabul and the task fell to us.

We were basically like I.E.D. magnets and I will tell you that although we never shammed a patrol, we were deeply affected psychologically and emotionally by the prospect of hitting an I.E.D. and this affected our decision making process.

I learned to respect and fear such things as mined routes. It cannot be understated that mines and I.E.D.s will continue to play a vital role in tactical situations.

No matter what any of you say, even if you hate mines today, if we were invaded by red China tonight 90% of you would be learning to make I.E.D.s tomorrow, and you would support their use.

The reality is...that our military industrial complex is well on their way to a mine monopoly. Notice they said our commitments to our friends and allies.

What's the difference between a friend and an ally? Well you give them to your allies and sell them to your friends.

The United States of America is the largest arms dealer in the world. In fact about the only thing we still make here in America is weaponry and aviation and aviation weaponry.

In fact we have devoted so much of our tax payer resources to our leading military industrial complex and allowed our military to function as a mercenary army for international interests and are so reliant on the proceeds from war and weapons sales now that we forced our allies to stop selling them through this sham of a treaty so we could have an exclusive in the market.

We need the business!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


That's the other thing. If all of Nato were to do it, well then Nato couldn't buy them anymore could they?


I actually think it's the opposite though, you sell to your allies because they are typically aligned for economic reasons anyway... where as friends share your societal values.


[edit on 24-11-2009 by HunkaHunka]

The problem is that even that the enemy will also be keeping tabs on technology in which case you will eventually be left with the same dumb weapons the injured and killed the Diggers that laid them . Once the enemy has figured out the inner working of modern mines I need not bother to inform people what will happen next . Naturally one bad decision from a senior officer lead to the decision to this mess . Any such decisions that involve such poor decision is not taken by the majority of those who are serving , but they are the ones who faces the consequences . I fully accepted that in war zones some unsavoury things have to happen but having self inflicted wounds that are perfectly avoidable is something else entirely .