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The Old Testament ...... right ...... and wrong !?

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posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 02:19 PM
I am not a theologian , and I'm not trying to rewrite the bible , but...
The Old Testament seems to be full of harsh rules , that I don't think
come from God .[Ten commandments excepted] I believe in the
prophets , and their divine guidance,but the accuracy of their words ,
I think , is not truly represented.
Please correct me if I'm wrong , this forum is my shortcut to
enlightenment .
I understand that the Koran is basically , the Old Testament .?
A lot of muslim women feel they must completely cover their
bodies because of the lustful looks they attract , if they don't.
They also believe that an uncovered part of the body is shameful.
... surely God is not such a prude , as to demand this .
.. and is not the problem really with the men who demand this.?
.. honour killings of women who have been seduced or raped
by Godless men . ?
God would not be pleased . Surely this is sexism? ..and plainly wrong ?
Stoning of children , and others for minor breaches of scripture .
Is this another example of ancient societies , imposing their will ,
not God's ?
The removal of the hands of thieves . Surely , the Supreme Creator
wouldn't demand this . Is this another example of men in power ,
writing scripture to suit their own needs ?
I think some Orthodox Jewish people [married] , sleep in separate beds .
... surely God doesn't demand this . Another mis-interpretation of
God's will ? [Torah ... Old Testament?]

...And could these extreme laws , have been inspired by satan... ?

I believe that God only intervenes/punishes , people/nations
when things reach a point of no return . i.e The Flood/inundation.
I also believe in Jesus , and the New Covenant , and that this is
God's way of correcting previous anomalies ,.
However , I also think , that it has been tampered with , by
corrupt men in power . That's another thread ...

What do you think ?....

[edit on 24-11-2009 by radarloveguy]

posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 03:03 PM
reply to post by radarloveguy

I think I need the English version of your questions. What kind of whacked out writing is that?

Maybe you can number the questions or pick a few that you really want answered or take a comparative religion class?

I don't think ATS is the right destination to answer your every religion question.

posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 03:08 PM
reply to post by radarloveguy

I understand that the Koran is basically , the Old Testament .?

It's a mish-mash of stuff from both Testaments. Most of the stuff taken from them has been changed or distorted in someway though. For example, the Koran says that Abraham tried to sacrifice Ishmael instead of Isaac.

I think some Orthodox Jewish people [married] , sleep in separate beds .
... surely God doesn't demand this . Another mis-interpretation of
God's will ? [Torah ... Old Testament?]

God doesn't command that they sleep in the same bed either. It's just a cultural thing that men and women sleep together. You must remember too, that in Judaism, you become unclean if you touch something that an unclean woman touched. So, by sleeping in separate beds, the man is trying to keep himself from becoming unclean.

...And could these extreme laws , have been inspired by satan... ?

I don't think so. I think that God made the Law as difficult as he did to follow in order for man to see the need to rely on God and for someone to accomplish the Law for them; which is accomplished in Jesus' earthly work.

I believe that God only intervenes/punishes , people/nations
when things reach a point of no return . i.e The Flood/inundation.

Agreed. That's why the world is still here today!

***I skipped that section about the Koran because, it doesn't pertain to the Old Testament.

[edit on 11/24/2009 by octotom]

posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 03:20 PM
reply to post by WickettheRabbit

.... ....thanks for your nonsensical post .

I suggest you read a Bible , and stop backsliding !

...anyway , gotta go sweep a street , ... back later...

[edit on 24-11-2009 by radarloveguy]

posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 03:26 PM
I think that's what happens when you go up a mountain and sit there and fast, eating nothing but the mushrooms you find growing there. After awhile you start talking to god and he answers. Then you write down your commandments or bible or whatever and take it down to the folks. It's really all in your shroomed head to begin with.

posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 03:34 PM
Hi radar

What makes you think the so-called TEN Commandments are from 'God' --presumably you know that the post Exilic Hebrew scriptures center not on 'GOD' but on the clan god of Israelm with its so called master chosen people? (well, they wrote it about themselves, so...obviously...)

Here are a few to ponder (they don't seem very universal to me)

l. I am YHWH who led you safely out of Egypt: you will have no other clan gods before my face(s).

First of all, no middle eastern desert clan god led me anywhere, so this is NOT universal, but applies only to a certain group of wandering desert nomads lost in their deserts...going around in circles and circles and circles...

2. You shall not make unto me any graven images.

Well, that didn't stop 'Mosheh' from making a Bronze Snake Idol, then having the nerve to put it on TOP OF A POLE !! (or that pesky 'brother' of his, A'aron, with his GOLDEN CALF IDOLS made out of...well, spare earings...) - so much for that Commandment if the leaders themselves spit all over it...

Still, not very universal---we make graven images every day with our cameras clicking in every direction every day to Sunday--and all the TurkoUkranian Ashkenazim in Hollywood are at the very cutting edge of graven image making (and making gods out of mindless celebrities with plastic surgically altered 'bodies' !) -- so much for THEIR religion !

3. You shall honour the Shabat Day and you will hold it sacred.

Well, the Shabat ('seventh') doesn't seem particularly sacred for most so-called Christians, who tend to celebrate the 1st day of the week i.e. Day of their Sun God Iesous (rising and dying and rising again every day...and every year at the solstices, too) - either way hardly universal..

Not sure how sacred a day can be when it is the best shopping day of the week at the malls---even in this economy !

I personally like #10

10. You will not make a hex on your neighbour to harm or desire his property (my neighbour's ox, he can keep---but my neighbour's ass, well, that is another matter...)

The King James Version likes to translate the word as 'covet' and leave it at that, but the paleoHebrew (even unpointed without the vowells added !) is clearly about hexing and casting spells...

Not sure how popular or universal (or even relevant) hexing and spell casting are these days--but the whole Commandments Spiel sounds like a good way to keep these illiterate and very lost desert nomads, well...permanently lost.

In their tents, yet !

posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 02:13 AM
reply to post by Sigismundus

Nobody worshipped the snake on moses' staff .
it was to demonstrate that someone who has divine help ,
can embarass THE most Godless of leaders .

The golden calf was definately an idol , but was clearly rejected
by Moses .

[edit on 25-11-2009 by radarloveguy]

posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 02:22 AM
reply to post by damwel

Why do you post in religious threads when it is obvious
you don't believe in God .
I don't care whether you are lost or not , but pretending
I or Moses take heavy drugs , is wrong .

posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 12:26 PM
Hi Radar--

I can see right away you are having some difficulty reading and understanding un-pointed paleo Hebrew texts—clearly you do not understand the passage in the original language—and you’re not alone on this thread in your thrashing around in the dark, linquistically speaking…try reading Numbers 21:4-9 a couple hundred times (in English if that’s all you can read):

Here, let me help you:

Just so you won’t get totally confused ref: the various conflicting versions of the Hebrew bible in antiquity (by the way, the Hebrew texts don’t match each other very closely if you compare them letter for letter) …

Here is a modern translation (into modern English) of the Hebrew Vorlag Underlay of the Greek Septuaginta LXX (found at Qumran among the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated 200BCE, some 1000 years BEFORE the pointed Masoretic text that Rabbinic Jews use today—for whatever reason!)-- since paleo seems beyond the ken, apparently, of a lot of folks on this thread and others like it…

Numbers 21:4-9


"Then YHWH cast ‘burning snakes’ (ha-nachashim-seraphim’) upon all the people and they bit [many of] them so that a large portion of the sons of Yisro’el died.

So the people ran to Mosheh and said to him: Ah, we must have sinned in that we spoke against the name of YHWH and against you also…so please, pray to YHWH, that he might take away the[se] snakes from us!

So Mosheh began to pray [to YHWH] on behalf of the people.

And YHWH spoke to Mosheh saying,

‘Mould unto me an Image of a Burning Snake-Idol, and Place it upon a Pole, so that anyone who regards it (i.e. burns incense to it) who is bitten [by a burning-snake] will survive..’

So Moses moulded a Brass Serpent Idol, and placed it upon a Pole, and when a snake bit anyone, if he regarded the Brass Snake Idol, he survived.


Causing people to [look upon/regard/worship/burn incense to] a Bronze Snake Idol-on-a-Pole is a clear violation of the so-called 2nd Commandment , in their variously different wordings in the Torah (the wording is different each time it is repeated in the text...hmmm..)


Exodus 20:4 ‘you will never make unto me any graven images’

Exod. 34:17, ‘you will never make unto me cast idols’

Deut 5:8 (‘You will never make for yourselves an idol whether in the form of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water, or under the earth. What is more, you will not bow down to them or worship them’).

It is clear that the ‘benei Yisro’el’ (‘sons of Israel’) were doing more than merely looking at this bronze Snake Idol Thingy on a Pole that Moses was told to make by YHWH the clan god of Yisro’el as a cure for snake bite (oh, THAT really happened !!!) at any rate it is a CLEAR Violation of the Torah prohibitions against making IDOLS to other gods, snake gods not excepted.

Also it is clear that by the time of Hezekiah (pre 621 BCE), the ancient Mosaic Bronze Snake Idol on a Pole (‘Nahash’) had to be taken OUT OF THE TEMPLE at Jerusalem where it had been mounted near the Ark of the Covenant (which also had 2 Cherubim Idols on its sold gold lid) for more than 400 years before Hezekiah could grind it to powder and pour it into a stream.

See II Kings 18:4-5


"So Hezekiah ploughed under all the high place shrines and also smashed the sacred phallus-pillars and then proceeded to cut down the groves dedicated to the [wife of YHWH called] Asherah.

He also smashed to pieces THE BRONZE SNAKE IDOL THAT MOSES HAD MAD, for until the days of Hezekiah, the sons of Israel always burned incense unto it and regarded it: and Hezekiah named the idol, Nehushtan" (lit. ‘brassy thing’, from ‘nachoshet’ = ‘brassy’ which is a play on words for ‘nachash’ = snake)


Recent archaeological excavations at sites associated with Midianite ware at the ruins of Seti II's temple to Hathor at Timna, in Edomite Seir, have unearthed large copper statues of bronze serpent idols and their poles staffs upon which these snake idols were set. The snake symbol (often shown climbing on poles) were also an important symbol of Egyptian temple cults (interestingly, MOSHEH, A'ARON, 'PHINEAS' (=Pa Nehasy), HOPHNI, MIRYIAM &tal. are all Egyptian, not Hebrew names...)

It is clear from the context of ‘murmering against Mosheh’ and the following pericope ‘murmuring against the Wife of Mosheh because she was a Midianitess’ that the Midianite cultic worship of Bronze Snakes was some how mixed in with the OTHER worship of the other clan god YHWH who later (after 587 BCE) became the SOLE clan god of Yisroe’l—even Hezekiah (c. 621 BCE) killed off the groves of Yahweh’s wife ‘Asherah’ so the process of making YHWH the sole-clan-god was happening even before the Exile into Babylon in 587 BCE.

It has also been suggested by some modern scholars that Hezekiah's grinding down of the Nehushtan Snake Idol on a Pole was a result of the political balance of power moving towards Assyria (who had conquered the ‘northern kingdom’ of Yisro’el in 722BCE) which permitted him to remain on the throne of the ‘southern kingdom’ of Yehudah/Judah as their ‘puppet’ clan-chief.

Hezekiah by destroying the pagan Midianite Snake Idol on a Pole was publically demonistrating his political loyalty to the new Assyrian regime by the removal of an important symbol with Egyptian and Midianite associations.

So there is a lot more to this story than your jejune assumptions of the ‘benei Yisro’el’ being worshippers of ‘YHWH alone’ back in the days of ‘Mosheh’…and recent archaeological digs show that many idols were worshipped in the temple at Jerusalem, many of them, (shock and awe !!!) were even (dare I say it?) ‘un-circumcised’ !

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