What I don't get about Jesus

Originally posted by LiquidLight
What I don't get about Jesus is why people believed him when he said he was the son of God. Let's say for a minute that he did heal the sick, walk on water, and come back from the dead. In today's world, someone like that would most likely be called a demon. What proof do we have, besides his own word, that he is the son of God?

This, of course, assumes the whole thing isn't a story made up by some Jewish guys trying to undermine the authority of the Roman Empire. I'm really at a loss here. Why do so many people take this at face value without any proof whatsoever?

The brief history of JCs life

1. Jesus was born
2. Three wise men from the east came and bought him from Mary (as they had seen in the stars his birth try i Ching, Indian Vedic astrology or the Tibetan Dalai lama prophecies)
3. Jesus disappears for 30 odd years where he becomes a bit of a hippy traveling around Asia learning yoga, Reiki, Meditation, Spirituality and all about the original Pagan religions which worship nature (Which worship nature and the Moon and Sun. The Sun of God??? get it?
4. Anyway after kicking back in Goa for a bit and finding himself he decides to head back home to see his mates and share his travels.
5. He goes back and get quite a following as he is a bit of a guru and can heal by touch, tells everyone about how there is only one religion and the Sun of god has 12 followers (the zodiac)
6. Becomes bit of a celebrity and gets Rome a bit twitchy so Rome knock him off and hijack his story, alter and distort it completely to divert peoples attention away from their spiritual abilities so they can maintain a better control over their subjects.

So there we are somewhere between him actually being the divine Son of God and not existing. Maybe on the face of it not as glamorous but a whole lot more interesting and real if you consider the experiences he must have had in those 30 years he went 'quiet'.

Originally posted by LiquidLight
What I don't get about Jesus is why people believed him when he said he was the son of God. Let's say for a minute that he did heal the sick, walk on water, and come back from the dead. In today's world, someone like that would most likely be called a demon. What proof do we have, besides his own word, that he is the son of God?

This, of course, assumes the whole thing isn't a story made up by some Jewish guys trying to undermine the authority of the Roman Empire. I'm really at a loss here. Why do so many people take this at face value without any proof whatsoever?

If you pick up a new testament and read it, you will find that there is no passage within it where Jesus states that he is the son of god. No where. This is church doctrine and dogma that has been perpetuated and is not extant in the actual scriptures.

As for your last question, you more or less answered it yourself. For instance, why did you think that Jesus said he was the son of god? You thought that because someone told you that or you were under the impression he said that etc etc. You could have quickly resolved it by searching an online bible.

The teachings of Jesus are what is referred to with the "I am the way and the light and only through me will you see the kingdom of heaven". This is not saying "I am the son of god" it is saying "this is the way, watch my example and follow it and all will be well for you following this life".

I find it odd that there are a great many people willing to tackle Christianity without ever really studying it.

That's kind of like monkeys criticizing physics really don't you think?

Originally posted by elevatedone
Interesting question.

What proof would be acceptable? In the days of Jesus or today, no one would believe the proof anyway.

It's called faith.

If everyone understood what faith really is, what it means to each of us and asks of us that claim it, this discussion would not be 4+ pages.............

Faith is exactly why I am ex-christian!


You can not (at least I can't) prove beyond the shadow of doubt that, absolutely, positively there is a jesus, jehovah, allah, god "person" or in this case, jesus was god's son without what..................................

FAITH

These discussions of a god person's existence or not are completely a waste of time as is was jesus god's son..........

Have fun ya'all!

reply to post by reasonable

I speak my mind regarding the religious, sorry you disagree.. I guess I should be banned? Myself and others have had a guts full of it.. The evangelicals + Bush have destroyed the USA and wreaked global havoc.. your people are now calling for civil disobedience towards laws that go against your religious doctrine, you hypocrites condemn gays one second and the next claim to 'love and live with the heart never taking only giving' Don't even get me started on the Vatican, pedophilia, 50million dollar megachurches, god hates f*gs, palin Pentecostals. Am I painting with a broad brush? Damn straight I am because it all leads back to 1 thing -The Lord. Your people have even destroyed this forum for the most part. I'll leave it at that an no I don't and will not forgive any of you, although psychologically I can understand you are sick so you do get some points for that.

So you're the one with all the hate and we're the ones who are sick.
Why do you through humans under the bus because God hates Gays.
It's not my fault if God hates Gays.The same that it isn't your fault that God hates gays.

reply to post by Alethea

If someone beats you and then says "I am only doing this because I love you," what will you believe?

This is where I have 50% of my problems. God has put me thru hell my entire life- I have had things- simple things- that would have made my life a lot more livable taken from me. The way I have seen it: I do bad, God punishes me. I do good, 'Satan' punishes me. (attacks, punishes, it's the same thing, just different words).

As someone who HAS been abused by his parents and family- I can sit here, and swear in a court of law it's abuse. I'll take a polygraph test. I'll take sodium pentathol (or whatever they use as of late). I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt- God abuses a number of us for whatever reason.

Originally posted by LiquidLight
What I don't get about Jesus is why people believed him when he said he was the son of God. Let's say for a minute that he did heal the sick, walk on water, and come back from the dead. In today's world, someone like that would most likely be called a demon. What proof do we have, besides his own word, that he is the son of God?

This, of course, assumes the whole thing isn't a story made up by some Jewish guys trying to undermine the authority of the Roman Empire. I'm really at a loss here. Why do so many people take this at face value without any proof whatsoever?

Here's the proof though you most likely will brush it off.

Jesus, the name, portrays a man and with that portrayal is an image seared into the minds of most the living.

The problem and the deception on purpose.

People look to the name not IN the name.

Ready to find out who Jesus really is? Are you ready to find out the actual name all mankind is saved in?

Jesus literally means "self existent salvation"...the name IN which You are saved.

Jesus is the will to survive.

God honors no man, as all souls are HIS...yours included, what he honors are those "Doing" his will.

When you do his will, you are his will. Jesus is his will and again is "self existent salvation"

Do "self existent salvation". You've accepted it as your savior the first second air filled your lungs.

Now the image and name of the man, is the very image of the beast we were warned against.

People will have never saw that one coming, but the bible is literal and metaphorical. The two witness the truth...that is the difference of literal and metaphorical which contradict one from one side and one from the other, but when taken together, no truth is left covered.

Jesus is every man woman and child living, past future and present.

1 Love the lord your god
2 love your neighbor as yourself

Note. God, neighbor, self in that exact order. The instruction on how to actually love yourself is not left out, only it appears as one command...the first.

Love one another, as I have loved YOU....I gave you life...so give a life back.

You being a parent and the greatest in the kingdom, humble yourself to serve the most lowly (your children) and you will have treasure in heaven...IN THEM YOUR only begotton children.

Basically it's like this. Walk into the bathroom and look in the mirror. His image is marred and very hard to make out in the midst of yours, but check out the mirror....."Say hello to my little friend." Do you see the peter to build the church on yet? Are you starting to understand "the clouds of heaven". I mean it's a "load" of information, but hopefully it is nude before your eyes. Perhaps the "Rod" of iron will help you remember? It sure can make a disciple out of prostitutes.

So I tip my 40 to you

Peace

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by Alethea

 

If someone beats you and then says "I am only doing this because I love you," what will you believe?

This is where I have 50% of my problems. God has put me thru hell my entire life- I have had things- simple things- that would have made my life a lot more livable taken from me. The way I have seen it: I do bad, God punishes me. I do good, 'Satan' punishes me. (attacks, punishes, it's the same thing, just different words).

As someone who HAS been abused by his parents and family- I can sit here, and swear in a court of law it's abuse. I'll take a polygraph test. I'll take sodium pentathol (or whatever they use as of late). I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt- God abuses a number of us for whatever reason.

Everyone has been abused. Some more then others, some not enough.

Satan isn't a being it is an action. This action plays itself out through men.

Many would say God is true. I do personally believe that, but I am, as you are, in the presence of God everyday. People will say God is true, then turn right around and say "Satan" is going to get you.

Here is why they contradict. Satan and God. Satan again is not a being, but an action...adversary. God is not a being, rather God is Being. Now if I were adverse to God (the living host of all) God could then become angrey and count me as a "satan" which is adversary. Now, if I hold the same view or anger as God towards God. Guess what God is now called from my point of view, same as his.....? That's right "SATAN" is what I would then call GOD. Doesn't mean God isn't God, just means as my enemy (in example) i have placed a title to show displeasure thus "Adversary" perscribed to God.

Satan = Adversary (action)
Luxphosphoros/ Lucifer = Light bearer (action)
BAAL = LORD (aserting action)
Molach= KING (asserting action)
Jesus = SELF EXISTENT SALVATION (asserting action)
Jehovah/Yahwah = SELF EXISTENT (stated action)

You want in on this action or what?

"Those who DO his will"

PS Always look IN the name literally. See what it means. Every name is a key to the story...

Peace

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Who,if not Jesus,would you say this is referring to?

Or, if you watch Zeitgeist, it is proposed that Jesus was a perfected version of the prototype Joseph, who was a "western" version of Horus from Egyptian mythology, and he actually didn't exist at all.

The Romans made it all up, and they're bloodlines are still in power today.

reply to post by wylekat

This is where I have 50% of my problems. God has put me thru hell my entire life- I have had things- simple things- that would have made my life a lot more livable taken from me. The way I have seen it: I do bad, God punishes me. I do good, 'Satan' punishes me. (attacks, punishes, it's the same thing, just different words).

God put you thru hell. How is it that God gets the blame for you going thru hell.You have been whinning like this since way before I even came to this site, you're still doing it and I don't feel the least bit sorry for you.
You know why? Because You feel sorry enough for yourself.

"As Frodo looks down at the ring in his hand he says that he wish that the ring had never come into his possession."

Wise Gandalf says, "So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

----------

That little line is a mark of wisdom, and my favorite quotes. To me, it really sums up the meaning of life itself, whether you believe in god or not.

[edit on 24-11-2009 by scrybe]

Just want to point out that Jesus did acknowledge that he is both the (not a) Son of God and The Christ.

www.biblegateway.com...:41&version=NIV

www.biblegateway.com...:70&version=NIV

Now this only applies if you believe in the Bible. If you don't, then it doesn't matter anyway.

I'll make another analogy. Believing in parts of the New Testament and not believing in others is like believing that Harry Potter was real, but didn't actually go to wizardry school. Why would you pick and choose to believe parts are real and others are not?

I understand the OP's question. I have pondered it lots of times; I wasn't raised in church, my mom talked about God and Jesus when we went to bed but never in a scary or warning type way. I think even if she had not talked of them, I would have grown up loving them and knowing them in a personal sort of way. And I can't really explain why.

My point, after all that unnecessary lead-in, is that I wonder why/how people DON'T believe in Jesus and God, just as much as you wonder why they do. When I read scripture that says God knew me before I was in my mother's womb, I just instinctively know that He really did.





[edit on 24-11-2009 by Bombeni]

Originally posted by Jim Scott
1. He fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah.
2. He raised from the dead.
3. His followers who knew Him said He was, and died to prove it.
4. 500 others were also resurrected from the dead on the same day as His resurrection.
5. He said He was.

Yeah, also how about: "This IS MY SON, in Whom I am well pleased".

Kinda sums it up, don't it?

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit
Just want to point out that Jesus did acknowledge that he is both the (not a) Son of God and The Christ.

Did Jesus acknowledge that we are all sons and daughters of God when he taught us how to say the Lord's prayer in Luke 11:2, which starts out "Our Father.."?

Note that it doesn't start out with "Father of Jesus..."

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


got a link to any of those docs?

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit

I'll make another analogy. Believing in parts of the New Testament and not believing in others is like believing that Harry Potter was real, but didn't actually go to wizardry school. Why would you pick and choose to believe parts are real and others are not?

For the same reason that we can believe the Trojan war happened but remove the parts where gods and goddesses intervened on behalf of one side or another and disregard Achilles being an invulnerable son of a nymph. Harry Potter was written with the intent of being taken as Fiction while the Gospels were written with the intent of persuading primitive people to believe they were true. Also the Gospels went through many edits and it's quite obvious that when the Romans hijacked the religion they added in some things that would appeal to practicing polytheists... So the question is how much of the Jesus story is pure fiction and how much is based on a real person? It's not easy to say as the evidence is sparse but there is a lot of wisdom in Jesus's teachings so I prefer to believe that he was a real person but that the supernatural elements were added to attract people to the religion after the Romans took it over. You could easily be right though, the whole thing could be fake, but no one knows and so all we can do is speculate.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit
Just want to point out that Jesus did acknowledge that he is both the (not a) Son of God and The Christ.

Did Jesus acknowledge that we are all sons and daughters of God when he taught us how to say the Lord's prayer in Luke 11:2, which starts out "Our Father.."?

Note that it doesn't start out with "Father of Jesus..."

Yes, Jesus did say that we were all sons and daughters of God, but Jesus is specifically noted not only by himself, but by others as the singular Son of God. It's a very specific difference. Let's look at Mark 3:11.

1Whenever the evil[a] spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." 12But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was.

Notice they didn't turn to just everyone and say "eeekk...we're surrounded by the sons and daughters of God.". If everyone was considered the same as Jesus, by the same birthright, the spirits wouldn't have acknowledged Jesus as anything more.

Even Satan refers to Jesus as "the Son of God", not "a" son of God. Matthew 4:3 as an example.

3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

So...

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit
I'll make another analogy. Believing in parts of the New Testament and not believing in others is like believing that Harry Potter was real, but didn't actually go to wizardry school. Why would you pick and choose to believe parts are real and others are not?

I agree with this 100% I have no respect for people who claim that they are Christian, but try to change what the bible says to try and make it more PC. I think that extends to the OT too. Either follow your fairy tale as the infallible word of God that it is spun as or jump off the wagon. I say that if one single word in the bible is not literal than it is open to take none of it as literal.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Your last statement is what I was trying to get to, but I agree with your argument from the first statement. The line where history and myth gets blurred from just about every source in the ancient world. The Bible, even the New Testament, included.

But...if you consider the Bible your source on all knowledge of Jesus and then dispute certain elements of it simply because you don't care to accept them as true, why would you believe any of it?