It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by s373r3d
Well part of it is we can take money from say Social Security that is supposed to be being saved for future liabilities, but instead of setting it aside we borrow it from our selves.. but we are stil going to owe that or we are going to have to get rid of SS.
Originally posted by HotSauce
We must drill for our own oil, dig up our other natural resources, and we should do it with haste and clean up the mess later. We are in a war for our very survival.
[edit on 23-11-2009 by HotSauce]
Well, I'd say you're on the right track, but nobody is going to nuke America; unless y'all launch 1st that is (& lets face facts, there are a lot of Americans who would rather see global destruction than the humiliation of economic restructuring @the hands of the IMF). However, regardless of national pride, as I said earlier, there's no money in MADNESS![/I]
We could get ourselves all nuked to death for scamming and ripping off the rest of the world with our funny money that's becoming worthless with each passing day.
I see you chose to ignore my earlier posts then. Let me recap: the USA cannot compete with Europe, Japan, or China on a level playing field. Y'all simply dont have the population density.
So is competition and we're still well qualified to compete. We just need to bring it back.
Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by ~Lucidity
Agreed on India. Heck I say declare economic war on the whole darn world.. might as well just cut to the chase.
Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by Janky Red
I'm not really sure. But there sure isn't a lot of balance here. Someone said the other day (maybe it was in the video someone posted here) that Wal-Mart is virtually a monopoly. I haven't had time to think about that yet. And even if it was, I'm not sure anyone cares about such things anymore...even the baby bells are going back to mama. (Lame joke.)
Rapid Product Dissemination, Rapid Copying and Manufacturers in the Far East Manufacturing Region
China, currently the manufacturing darling of the world, is commonly mistaken to be an open and fair market. It is not. China, and its nearby close relatives, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. are not open (to the Western mind) and are very intent on one thing, bringing cash flow into their countries while minimizing outflows. This attitude saturates every aspect of their mindset towards doing business with The West as well as each other.
It was long suspected, and now known to be true that China does not respect patents or copyrights and does very little to battle corporate espionage or protect intellectual rights. There is no regard to US intellectual property and very little to products invented within their own borders. They are as likely to copy each other as they are to copy outsider's ideas. This concept is rampant throughout the region and there is currently little to no commonly known defense to protect against it. Very large corporations are known to have resorted to bribery or to unusually high levels of local content in order to have a small semblance of government support (at the cost of very low margins from sales).
In an in-person meeting with China's Ambassador to the United States in San Francisco, I was amazed at his candidness at expressing that he was powerless to do anything about these attitudes and that the Chinese government would do nothing to protect my company's intellectual property rights if we chose to begin operations in their country, but they certainly would be happy to take our money, thank you very much (in exchange for no fairness).
Small companies essentially do not stand a significant chance at making any money at all in the Chinese market because products there are copied and disseminated so quickly that the original manufacturer is more likely to see a copy in the stores before seeing his own product there, and they copy will be significantly less expensive. The most likely scenario is that the original holder of the intellectual property finds themselves with a significant loss in the Chinese market and will not be unable to capture any net profit at all despite capturing any percentage of the market there. This is not worth the effort and it creates a risk in exposing a patented product to an economy that does not respect patents. A negative cash flow of a small percentage of a huge market is still a loss by any accounting method, its just not worth giving away intellectual property, spending all the money to set up the marketing to then have it stolen in a lawless society.
Larger companies have found it to be very difficult for them to enjoy the freedom they do in the US. There is no actual freedom to sell freely and there is no protection for their intellectual property. The only companies that have done well are those that can afford billion dollar marketing budgets, are in it for the very long haul, and sell prepared food products under a hard to copy brand such as McDonald's and Taco Bell/Kentucky Fried Chicken (I.e. YUM brands). Those brands have the ability to defend themselves with a billion dollar shield but its not been proven that they will always be able to defend themselves in the future, they are taking a big gamble but have the cash on hand to do so. Although they do seem to be one of the few US victories in China, keep in mind that very little profit flows back to the shareholders in the US because most of it is eaten up in Chinese labor and Chinese raw material, neither of which helps the US significantly.
The classic example of a company doing long term business could be seen in examining Microsoft's lack of success in the Far East region. Microsoft for many years now, has battled with the Chinese government to stop the wholesale unauthorized duplication of its various software products, including its flagship Windows Operating System, but to to avail.
Less than 1% of gross revenue comes from China back to Microsoft, yet 95% of the computers run their operating system. This past August, 400,000 personal computers were reported to have been sold in China, less than 1% were sales by US companies, despite US companies creating the personal computer market and manufacturing 99% of all computers made today.
Previous year's sales of PCs in China were approximately 1.5 million units, yet despite the massive sales of computers Microsoft can barely take in 1% of revenue which in all likelihood results in a loss for Microsoft to operate in China. Why? Because Microsoft has a huge anti-fraud operation in China (and in the US for bootlegged Chinese sourced software) which costs them millions of dollars a year to operate. It is currently believed that all major US companies have anti fraud divisions in China that cost them millions of dollars of dollars to operate. They typically hire local security companies (ex Police and ex Government agents) to investigate and on rare occasions they will even cooperate with the government in a raid on illegal warehouses but that has effectively done nothing to stop the illegal activities.
Microsoft even went to the extreme of hiring the preeminent anti-fraud scientist/engineer in China to create an unbeatable hologram to assert Microsoft's ownership of their intellectual property. Upon declaring success, Microsoft spent millions to retool for the new hologram. The impact on the knock-off market? None whatsoever. It turns out that regional consumers in that area do not look at the hologram and just buy the cheap knockoffs anyway.
The Chinese government says that they are helpless in this situation and has made very few public arrests so the problem marches on essentially unabated.
Outsourcing to Far East manufacturing centers is no different than manufacturing in China itself, even for products that are only intended for sale in the US. The entrepreneur could eventually find that his product went up for illegal sale in China as they were ramping up sales in the US. They may even find competitive products in the US in more distribution chains than they authorized, only to find them to be Chinese knockoffs.
In summary, the market that is safest and most important to aim for is the US open market. Know that even then, someone will take the product back to China and copy it. China is insuring that it doesn't fall into economic decline by enforcing that 99% of all products sold in China are made in China, and that it exports to other markets to bring in even more money. We in the US have made terrible mistakes by outsourcing products and services to other countries. India's economy is growing because of our service centers now placed within its major cities, while we are suffering a decline in jobs for call center employees. We import everything from cars to food and wonder why jobs and our economy have been suffering for years. We need to support job and services, our agriculture, and our planet by making and consuming as much as possible within our own borders.
Originally posted by HotSauce
So you are saying you would rather go down without a fight. I see your point about the governmet and they need to be dealt with and put in their place... but we must also fight to get our jobs back, not by tariffs, but by outcompeting our adversaries.
Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I'm wondering if we did suddenly decide to stop buying so many Chinese products, and ticked them off; then they decided to retaliate by demanding we instantly repay our loans/debts to them, what would happen to us in that event?
I really think we are walking on eggshells as far as our relationship with China goes. It's a fragile interdependency.