Let's declare WAR! Economic War on China

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

Agreed on India. Heck I say declare economic war on the whole darn world.. might as well just cut to the chase.

i hope thats not how all americans think. all of your wars had a false pre tense anyway. you think your fighting terrorists in the middle east? your not.

Thing is...good and services produced in China and India are no longer that much cheaper, people. And soon they won't be cheaper at all...and I'm talking dollarwise, not qualitywise here. Also? as someone just pointed out, when it come to quality?

It's cheap because of what they get away with, as we are all aware (lead paint, poisoned food, poisoned sheetrock). Once the same contraints are put in place there as we had here with your "evil" unions and OSHAs and EPA and the like, guess what? There will be virtually NO difference in price.

So in other words? they're using those workers too. very few in China or India truly benefit. the money there goes into the same pockets it goes into here. the squeeze was one and for a few decades they got cheaper labor and also drove down the price everywhere for later. And the slaves there bought into it just as the slaves here did and they'll be dropped just as fast...maybe even faster.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Slay, when you use the words "the largest investors, isn't this just a diplomatic way of stating they own our finanacial systems?

Plus, I didn't realize Japan was right up there with them.

I read somewhere the Chinese are concerned that Americans might not be spending as much for Christmas this year.....and what this might do to their economy.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by Jazzyguy

 

We're plenty good enough. You appear to be believing the fallacies spread about the U.S. I believe the U.S. STILL leads the world in patents and innovation even if you happen to build it.

Right, I hope you have a collection of patents that can rid those 12 T dollar debt.

Look, don't get me wrong, I love the US, but sometimes the US can be a numbskull from time to time.

I actually have two threads regarding the economic war, but it has been a year now, and things are getting worse for the US. Let's just say the present times is kinda like the 1970's, "protocol 6900" anyone?

China: 80 Percent Of Iraq's Debt To Be Forgiven November 10, 2009 China plans to forgive 80 percent of Iraq's debt of $8.47 billion, and Iraqi and Chinese officials will sig

www.investorsiraq.com...

War with China would not do us well right now, I say we just get in line.

reply to post by HappilyEverAfter


Hmmmm...now why would they "forgive" Iraq's debt? Idea! Cheap oil!

Do we really need more STUFF? Do we really need jobs that make more STUFF? Let's have an economic war in which we can make all the STUFF and have all the STUFF.



[edit on 23-11-2009 by ViperFoxBat]

Originally posted by fishing
Get rid of the lobbyists and corrupt politicians first !!!!!

That's not a bad idea.

It would be a real step towards fighting the disease instead of arguing over the symptoms.

This is really kind of dumb. The only thing China is doing is asking us to honor our debts to her. That's hardly "economic war". It's called wanting to get your money back from the entity you loaned it to.

What OP is proposing is like going into debt up to your eyebrows, then blaming it on the person who loaned you the money. And then wanting to destroy them.

We borrowed the money. It's our responsibility to pay it back. Is it going to hurt? Of course it is. But we dug ourselves into this hole, and we're going to have to climb our way out.

Oh, yeah. And if we default, we bring down China's economy, and everyone else's - including our own. You can't selectively hurt one country, without hurting them all.

Well, its nice to see Americans coming round to the views I've been expressing since I joined ATS a few months back. Economic war you say, Hotsauce?
"War is politics by other means."
~ Von Clausewitz
What is politics if it is not primarily about the disposition of resources? Therefore we can reasonably say: economics is war by other means. The truth is that physical conflict, threat, diplomacy & economics are all part of geopolitical strategy & all countries use whichever combination serves the interests of their rulers best, at any given moment, all the time.
The USA did very well out of WW2: got the proceeds of the British Empire, took over maritime trade, gained financial considerations that effectively marginalised European currencies, especially the Pound & perhaps best of all, got to see a continued market for newly revitalised US industry.
The decision by OPEC to only trade oil for US$ guaranteed the US$ prefered reserve currency status, giving the USA substantial additional spending power abroad & when Nixon decoupled the US$ from gold completely, this gave the USA the massive advantage of being able to print money without fear of inflation, as it could be spent abroad & would remain abroad as currency reserves. Why did Nixon have to take the US$ to a fully fiat currency tho? The USA had so much in its favour: cheap foreign & domestic raw materials, good transport infrastructure built by the New Deal, well developed industry & manufacturing base & a well paid booming population as a market.
The problem was that US Corps. had become used to the high profits they were getting from European & Japanese markets, but, by the mid 60s, those markets were dwindling as the devastation of WW2 was repaired & industries redeveloped. The Viet Nam war kept the US arms industry in gravy for a while, but with falling tax revenue, the Federal Govt. needed to borrow more than bullion would back. Basically, things have gone from bad to worse ever since.
Why?
Stay tuned & I'll tell y'all - plus the solution!

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Can anybody here show some facts that the average Chinese Citizen has the same ability to express their opinion here as we do?


Think about it.....


1.6 billion

waiting

America and the majority of her citizens got too caught up in the game of greed. They couldn't afford what they wanted so they applied for credit cards so that they could obtain what they wanted NOW. This doesn't just occur in America, however. It is commonplace throughout the first world. We couldn't wait for our luxury items. We couldn't save up our money until we had enough money to pay for our luxury items. We all had to have our items now.

Our impatience and selfishness is now coming back to bite us in the behind. It wasn't just our fault, however. Many corporations relocated overseas so that they could maximize their profits. These corporations didn't care that they were paying human beings two dollars a day to produce their goods. The very same goods that were then shipped back to our neck of the woods where we all gladly purchased them on our credit cards.

The people in third world nations are still suffering at the hands of corporate greed. In the first world, we continue to support it.

While I do not support communism wherein tyrants prosper off of the slave class (us) I can also see the inherent flaws of unregulated capitalism that currently exists in the first world.

Everything is set up to benefit the international corporations. While we the people continue to be shafted.

This needs to change. And change quickly.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting

I read somewhere the Chinese are concerned that Americans might not be spending as much for Christmas this year.....and what this might do to their economy.

EDIT TO ADD..


The US is not down and Out... Give us some breather room to compete!
Please.

And so was SONY and NISSAN Back in the day, When they bought Universal Studios. Your point? Will that stop you from being you?


Setting aside our Government Attitudes aside from that Americans, The "US" the People the REAL Americans are cool [ We love a fight]....

Remember after the stint, the Germans were stil German and we used in part their technology and beat the Soviets to the moon.




[edit on 23-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by ladyinwaiting

 

Can anybody here show some facts that the average Chinese Citizen has the same ability to express their opinion here as we do?


Think about it.....

1.6 billion

I dont believe it will happen today Slayer, here's 4 people wishing they could.

List of Political and Religous Prisoners
1. Dr. Wang Bing-zhang, lifelong democracy activist. Mr. Wang was allegedly kidnapped in Vietnam by Chinese State Security police in 2002. He was taken to China where he was sentenced to life in prison after a closed door trial. Mr. Wang is 62 years old and in poor health.

2. Mr. Chen Guang-cheng, a blind and self-taught human rights lawyer helping women victims of China's strict one birth policy. August 24, 2006, after a two-hour trial, Chen was charged was sentenced to over 4 years in prison.

3. Mr. Qin Yong-min, one of the first leaders in the pro-democracy movement in China. The first arrest of him was in 1981 for 7 years prison. The last arrest was On December 22, 1998, and the Wuhan City Court sentenced him to twelve years in prison.

4. Mr. Zhang Zhongxin, a pastor of a local house church in Jiangxiang County, Shandong Province. June 6th of 2008, pastor Zhang Zhongxin was arrested and then sentenced for two years reeducation through labor in July 4th.

initiativesforchina.org...

waiting and waiting and waiting

So, why is it that Americans have had to work harder & harder, whilst wages have not kept pace with the cost of living, since the early 70s? Why, despite high profitability of US interests, did Reagan have to borrow so extensively to burn down the Soviet economy? Corporate greed? Thats a major factor definitely, especially in the last 30yrs, but not the only nor the most important factor that Americans need to address. After all, a little swallowing of pride & admitting that the rhetoric of unfettered capitalism is hot air & the govt could easily stop US interests from offshoring jobs &/or tax them more.
No, the underlying issue is that the USA can not compete with Europe, Japan, or China, on a level playing field. WTF? Why?
Its very simple. The continental USA is a vast tract of land with its major population centres seperated much further apart than in densely populated countries. Thus any US industrial or manufacturing concern will always incure more transport costs for raw materials, finished goods & even labour, than counterparts in those countries mentioned.
The solution then? Obviously, y'all could breed more or let more immigrants in (assuming the Corporate greed is reigned in & jobs are created for those new people). Or you could campaign to end US support for Saudi Arabia, let it fall to revolution, let OPEC sell oil for whatever currency they want, allow the US$ to fall & tadaa! Your Corporations will no longer have a financial motive to make stuff far from the point of sale. This would only work in conjunction with a severe rethink on domestic transport policy however. It'll not be good enough to make road vehicles simply as efficient as their European counterparts, nor the rail system as good as Japan's: you will have to put some of what comes out of those fine universities to use & get a high tech combined strategy in place.
Still, while big oil is pulling strings in Washington, that will never happen... so I dont know why I've just wasted the skin off my fingertips.

If we must take pay cuts in order to get more jobs in this country we must ALL take pay cuts, but those who would try to take advantage of that shall be executed for treason.

Yes, and let’s start with the bankers.

The reality is that the top earners are making as much if not
more now that we have a financial crisis. I see it first hand.

Joe six pack is scared to death of losing his crappy job.
Many employers have used the "depression" to cut jobs
and squeeze more productivity out of those left employed.

I will look to buy more American products, however people are
looking for bargains because pay is down. It is a catch 22.

If you want to buy American you must spend more.
It is a self imposed tax for the patriotic.

reply to post by Bunken Drum

No, the underlying issue is that the USA can not compete with Europe, Japan, or China, on a level playing field. WTF? Why?
Its very simple. The continental USA is a vast tract of land with its major population centres seperated much further apart than in densely populated countries. Thus any US industrial or manufacturing concern will always incure more transport costs for raw materials, finished goods & even labour, than counterparts in those countries mentioned.

You must be joking. China is vast as well. Europe is so socialised they can barely get out of bed long enough to work, and the Japanese have to ship in most raw materials and then ship the stuff to market.

Don't we (not me) owe them like uh 9999 billion or something like that?

Definitely makes sense. . .

reply to post by SLAYER69

Can anybody here show some facts that the average Chinese Citizen has the same ability to express their opinion here as we do?

Internet censorship in China

The Chinese are more censored (on the internet) than anyone else in the world!

The size of the Internet police is estimated at more than 30,000.[3] Critical comments appearing on Internet forums, blogs, and major portals such as Sohu and Sina usually are erased within minutes. The apparatus of the PRC's Internet repression is considered more extensive and more advanced than in any other country in the world. The regime not only blocks website content but also monitors the internet access of individuals.

I think this was largely set up because of world criticism on working conditions and environmental conditions in China. The PTB in China don't take criticism well!

[edit on 23/11/09 by plumranch]

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by Bunken Drum

 

No, the underlying issue is that the USA can not compete with Europe, Japan, or China, on a level playing field. WTF? Why?
Its very simple. The continental USA is a vast tract of land with its major population centres seperated much further apart than in densely populated countries. Thus any US industrial or manufacturing concern will always incure more transport costs for raw materials, finished goods & even labour, than counterparts in those countries mentioned.

You must be joking.

I don't think he does. I think you need to pay your debt to these countries. All of it, no more Bretton Woods fiasco, no more fiat money.