Round 1: hyperion.martin vs wormwood13 - "North Korea will be an Ally"

The topic for this debate is "“When Kim Jong-il Dies, North Korea will Become Our Allies.” "

"hyperion.martin" will be arguing the "Pro" position and begin the debate.
"wormwood13" will be arguing the "Con" position.


Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

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Hello my fellow ATS members and my new friend wormwood13. I would first like to thank everybody involved in making this happen, it has been jokingly said that “men cannot live on words alone, but they can argue about said statement”. It is my intention during this discourse to propose that upon the death of the North Korean leader Kim Jong-il, the country of North Korea will become allies of the United States of America. I will offer evidence of Social, National and most importantly Religious flaws woven within the culture of the North Koreans, which will inevitably lead to the demise and transformation of North Korea upon the death of their “Great Leader”. My primary basis of argument is inevitability. As strange as it sounds, I would ask the reader to keep in mind the past rules of law regarding fascist, totalitarian dictatorships and what the inevitable result for mostly all of them has been.

Let me just start by saying it feels great to be back in the saddle again!

Now, first things second. If you would allow me to express my unflinching gratitude to all the people involved with setting up this little tiff. You certainly are a merry little band of colorful characters. I would also like to use this oppurtunity to thank hyperion.martin, who has already caused the corners of my mouth to turn up in a kind of twisted smile with his/her opening post. Don't worry though my new friend as they say in my buisness, this will only hurt a little.

On to more pertinent matters...

"When Kim Jong-Il Dies, North Korea will Become Our Allies."

I will be arguing the con position, and Oh. happy day this should be fun!

Now I hate to quote my opponents opening argument, however in this special case of blatant reigious prejudice I feel the need to ask my dear opponent what exactly he is implying by saying -

I will offer evidence of Social, National and most importantly Religious flaws woven within the culture of the North Koreans,

Hyperion Martin would have you believe that this rich, diverse culture, that doesn't happen to be his own or within his comfort-zone, is FLAWED?! I must vehemantly disagree with this method of thinking. Different is not flawed. Never has been, variety is the spice of life.

Wow! I'm sure Hyperion did not mean to insult the religiosity of the North Korean people so I am prepared to let him/her slide on this one.
and on to the real debate!

I will attempt, using my own unique brand of execution argumentation, to place the head of my esteemed colleague on the metaphorical chopping block, and hopefully decapitate him on the first swing of my logic axe.

The death of one man will not constitute the dissolution, nor demise of an established ideology or culture. I will show that North Korea has made it to where they are today because of their paticular form of government, and because of their resolve and the specific ways that they conduct themselves.

My opponent would immediately try to draw a correlation between Kim Jong-Il and other completely different dictatorships that have ended badly. Do not be led in by this tactic. Governments are unique multi-faceted creatures that must be studied individually, not lumped together. Remember China and Cuba are both communist as well. Is everyone that does not use capitolism or democracy flawed? Only from a very one-sided standpoint.

I will show you, dear readers, that following the death of Kim Jong-Il it will be buisness as usual in North Korea. If anything the death of their "great leader" would strengthen the resolve of the people.

The U.S. will not be allies with North Korea unless they abandon their nuclear programs. There is, without a doubt, more people than just Kim Jong-II that have vested interest in these programs. They provide power-plants that give the people electricity, much as we do in the U.S.. For the U.S. to expect these people to change completely because of the death of one man or 100,000 men is absurd. Would we? Would we abandon our nuclear stockpiles? I think not, however we will insist that they do!

Come on...................I mean come on, The demise and transformation of North Korea to meet U.S. ideals...come on! They are just as proud of their country as we are of ours.

I could write like five more paragraphs, but I don't like to kick people when their down.

Clean yourself up. I'll see you in your next post...

You bring up a number of noteworthy and understandable misconceptions that I should address. The first of which is how you describe the Nation of North Korea “rich, diverse culture..” I suppose one COULD describe North Korea as “rich” or “diverse” just as much as I could describe a dog cage as “roomy.”

It may seem like I am being flippant but I just want to illustrate the dramatic parallel between North Korea and the rest of the world. The strongest point of course would be that North Korea does not have a culture.

Culture: the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.

The given definition illustrates the problem with N. Korea, the ways of life are not built up by a group of people just ONE. Just as their laws, religion, leisure activities, Television entertainment (where you can find one), bedtimes etc. are decided, just by one man…The “Dear Leader.”

I will not spend too much time addressing the topic of religion, however I would like to state; that it absolutely WAS my intention to insult the N. Korean religion. The combination of human “God men” and the Juche ideals are a danger to any civilized person. I don’t feel the need to explain why it is a bad idea to warship an aging old man for his invention of algebra, science, modern medicine, etc. I’m SURE you would have no problem if I were to say Saddam Hussein was a horrible person for making those claims.

Well seeing as how you are an ATS member, you are aware of the concept of a “New World Order” or more likely have read the book 1984. Upon entering North Korea, you would realize that the embodiment of all the “NWO” fears had manifested itself upon the land. There is literally no building you will enter that does not have a picture of the “Dear Leader”, no song is sung that does not include mention of his works, no prayer that does not include his name, no street corner that does not hold his guards. There is also a mandatory curfew, rules against what to read and what to write, and anybody who violates these rules will just….disappear, Compliments of the Dear Leaders Police. I say the culture you find so “rich” and “diverse” is a nightmare, and the people of N. Korea know it from personal experience.
The death of Kim Jong-Il will be a sweet release that has come far too late for the people of Korea, and with only a whisper of hope they would gladly welcome democracy to come to their aid.

There is more of course, but I think I conveyed most of what I had to say so far.-------- Respectfully, Hyperion

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/03b2a06c9ab5.jpg[/atsimg]

Have you ever walked in the Buddist gardens on Visakha Puja?
I will include a few links just in case anyone out there thinks that North Korea is without culture.

countrystudies.us...

www.mapsofworld.com...

Apparently my opponent has spent less time researching North Korean culture than he has fostering a negative stereo-typical image he has built up about them.

Now I fear my opponent has strayed from the acual question at hand which is will North Korea become our allies following the death of Kim Jong-Il. Does'nt it make sense that they would have a plan in place to deal with this eventuallity? His 10's of thousands of loyal supporters and the people in key positions would be groomed to carry on the same projects and government that has kept them in power for so long. We have a plan to deal with the loss of our leader/s, and so does any country.

Lets discuss some of the plausable scenarios that could transpire following the death of one Kim Jong-Il. Keep in mind since he suffered a stroke in Aug 14, 2008www.nytimes.com... It has been discussed among the powers of North Korea.

Scenario 1- One of his sons will be his sucessor.He has three sons, It makes sense that one of them might take over as the next leader, and trained by his father his methods will most likely be similar in nature. They are all descended from the eternal president.

Scenario 2- Collective leadership, This is probably the most likely following the death of Kim Jong-Il. The www.britannica.com... and/or the www.globalsecurity.org..., and possibly even a currently unknown organization will want above all to keep order and maintain the status quo. They may choose to use one of his three sons to be the new "Awesome Leader figure-head" or they may choose someone who is from within their ranks.

Scenario 3- A new leader? Definitly more plausable then the demise of North Korea.

Scenario 4- Take-over by another power not from inside N. Korea. This is highly unlikely as there are no powers stationed in or even around their country.
All these are far more likelyt than the demise and transformation of everything.

Remember the ones in charge will do anything they can to maintain their power, and they certainly have the resources. Keeping things running the same would be the only way they could hold on to that power.

whether or not they would become our allies has alot to do with the diplomocy of whoever takes over not the death of Kim Jong-Il.

It seems that my opponent has confused the North Korean CULTURE with the RELIGION of Buddhism. I find this statement ironic considering my opponent added the comment that I was somehow lacking in my research. To use a metaphor; A religion is an aspect of culture, just like a nose is only one aspect of a face. The fact is, I harbor no ill will towards the Buddhists; honestly I can’t see how anybody could.

It was also said that I was somehow getting off topic, but I beg to differ. I believe that examining the entirety of a culture is a good way to predict an outcome of a social “decision”. But that is enough of that!
A number of scenarios have been listed by my opponent’s last post. I will not spend time trying to debunk what has not yet occurred, I will however offer a scenario of my own.

In June of 2009, Kim Jong-Il’s ELDEST son (Kim Jong Nam) stated to the Japanese News agency Article Here that he has NO intention of succeeding his father and in fact was much more interested in business endeavors.

This is a very critical statement to make for two reasons. The first being that, in the N.Korean ideal system regarding the transfer of power it would be a great act of defiance for the son of the Dear Leader to deny the importance of his father’s position by choosing a non leadership path.

The second and equally important reason for the denial of power by Kim Jong Nam, is that he choose to be a leader in the area of CAPITALISM over the Dictatorship he was born into. Perhaps he was tired of the monotony of having a country filled with millions of subservient people ready to do anything at his bidding, or maybe it was just good old fashion greed, either way HE WANTS OUT.

But is this completely unheard of….Not so much. China was considered a communist threat for a rather long stretch (39 years) But after the cold war, who was it that became one of Chinas LARGEST consumers? Who became and dare I say, still is one of Chinas most helpful economic ALLIES? All of these things I must mention, while China is still communist.

“whether or not they would become our allies has alot to do with the diplomocy of whoever takes over not the death of Kim Jong-Il.”

I agree…because it is an obvious statement. Of course somebody worse could come along, but this just leads to talking in circles.

Respectfully-------------Hyperion

Also Happy Thanksgiving

24 hour extension baby, YA!

www.timesonline.co.uk...

The eldest son of North Korean leader Kim Jong Il said he has no interest in who will take over the reins of the communist nation and indicated his father has not yet named a successor, a news report said Saturday

abcnews.go.com...
www.dailynk.com...

My opponent, aside from contradicting himself, is not giving all of the facts regarding the successor of Kim Jong-Il. I see no mention of the fact that on May 4th, 2001 Kim Jong Un embarrassed his father and the regime by attempting to enter Japan with fake passports. This act caused Kim Jong-Il to change his successor to his youngest son, Kim Jong Un. Kim Jong Un has been described as a chip off the old block. He displays the same kind of leadership skills as his father, and he is interested in taking the reigns following the death of Kim Jong Il. He has been trained and groomed by his father, remaining close by his side, especially since the stroke, to carry on the regime within North Korea the same way as his father. Kim Jong Un has been refered to recently as the "Prince", and he is the grandson of the country's founder and eternal president, Kim Il Sung. This puts him in the favor of the North Korean people.He is the choice for successor by his father and the higher ups of the Pyongyang.

www.time.com...


The other brother Kim Jong Chul has been described as being girlish, and an embarrassment. Given his father's image, and the way in which Chul represents himself, he would not be chosen to take over the regime.

Kim Jong Il anoints next leader of North Korea - his youngest son

So you see its not as my dear opponent would have you believe. All be it the inner-workings of this paticular family is shrouded in secrecy, what does leak out seems to point to the fact that this regime will carry on as usual.

There are 2 large organizations that will help see that this transfer of power will go down smoothly, the NDC,National Defense Fund and the KWP Korean Workers Party. These organizations are built on rigid order and you can bet money that that order will not collapse following the death of the figurehead. The KWP has been called the largest politically significant entity in North Korea, while the NDC is a huge military presence. Please keep in mind that the leaders of these and other secretive organizations within the Pyongyang have been "hand-picked" by Kim Jong Il.

Question 1- If you were a North Korean how would you feel about your government? How would you feel about the U.S.?

Question 2- Do you think that collectivist cultures are inferior to individualistic cultures?

Question 3- If someone demanded that you adhere to certain conditions that they themselves don't abide by, would you?

I cannot over state this enough, governments have plans in place to deal with the loss of their leaders.the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a large country sustaining roughly 23 million people, this population is the most ethnically the same in the world for having numbers like that. They live life differently then the majority, but the way they have done it so far has worked like 30 times longer than the U.S., and I believe will continue to work as long as there is a successor of the eternal president, which holds something closer to their hearts then me and you know.

Dear Hyperion.Martin, why are you late on your posts? It hurts my feelings when you do not respond on time and offer me not even a hint of clever excuses. I'm leaving you, and I'm taking the cat! I will wait 1 more hour then post this, the clock is ticking.....tick..tock.

First I must appoligize for a typo in my previous post,

I see no mention of the fact that on May 4th, 2001 Kim Jong Un embarrassed his father and the regime by attempting to enter Japan with fake passports.

I had put Kim Jong Un in this paticular sentence, I meant to put Kim Jong Nam, as the links I provided would have shown, it happens.

Let's talk a little bit about why North Korea and the U.S. are'nt allies now, and what would have to happen for the two sides to come to terms. The biggest hurdle is the disarment of their nuclear program, something that North Korea has shown they are unwilling to do even after their removal from the State Sponser's of Terrorism en.wikipedia.org... on October 11, 2008. They have shown, and not just Kim Jong-Il, but the whole of the upper echelons in Pyongyang, that they seek the advancement of these weapons, and will not cease progress on these paticular projects. Can you blame them, with things the way the are? They want to be able to defend themselves just like we can. The talks between the two sides has also broken down in the past because of the U.S.'s failure to eliminate similar nuclear programs. They have no interest in trading with us, and they want us to leave them alone. There is not ill will as seen by Bill Clinton securing the removal of the two journalists, and even meeting with Kim Jong-Il himself.www.foxnews.com... There is no evidence that North Korea would cease its current policies anytime soon, and they should not be forced to.

How do we know he's even alive now? What if he died if tomorrow, what would be the more likely scenario.

1. North Korea in shambles following the death of Kim Jong-Il, asking the U.S. for help in rebuilding its shattered government and intra-structure.

2. Kim Jong Un, takes over for his late father Kim Jong-Il as dictator of North Korea. U.S. and North Korean talks are still sketchy.

I implore my opponent to not give up, but to push forward with the greatest closing argument EVER! Time to shift it on down into overdrive! HOOray! wormwood out.

24 hour extension I'm trying buddy I just have some stuff going on

It is as difficult to conclude an argument that has no answer, than it is to count the stars while the sun is out. The truth is that we can never really know what will happen to North Korea when its Dear Leader dies until it actually happens. But we can come to an agreement that it will most likely fall upon a statistically probable scenario.

With the leader’s heirs seeking out the bounty of Capitalism or embarrassing the communist ideals, with the slow abolition of ignorance among a trapped people or with the realization that the world has changed tremendously since its formation; the fall of the leader Kim Jong-Il will be the breaking point of North Korea as we know it.

50 years ago we would never imagine a McDonald’s restaurant in China. We would never have seen Russian and American troops joining together on the battlefield. We could not imagine a world where Cuba would be allowing small groups of tourists roam the streets of Havana.
But the lives of men and nations ebb and flow with the oceans of time, and so shall North Korea.

Change is a hard thing to imagine, to some it is scary and to some it is expected. Regardless of how we feel about it or how we want it to occur, change WILL happen. Sometimes it can be the actions of one man that can change the course of history and in some cases; it can be the death of a man instead.

Wormwood thanks for putting up with my nonsense this was my first debate and to be honest you gave me a run for my money, but it was well worth it! Thank you all for reading and I hope to talk to you all soon.


------------Regards, Hyperion

In closing I would like to say thank you to chissler, I now know more about North Korea, and Kim Jongs then I ever wanted to know. I would also like to give a shout out to Hyperion Martin, welcome to the debates baby. I hope your enjoying it. May you go far.

A tough question definitly. My opponent is correct about the NWO fears being realized in North Korea. The people in charge are hell-bent on doing things their way, and they are so rooted in that anything less then a full-scale "people's revolution" would simpily fall short. Even full on rebellion would most likely not work against a very large, local military.

The very nature of the beast is that they will not let go of their power without dragging everybody else down with them. The Korean People are not interested in this long drawn out civil unrest. Just like here, its bad, but not bad enough to die for, an equilibrium greatly sought after by those Big Brother types of governments.

As much as people would love to see North Korea our allies, I must contend that it is far more likely that they will continue the same way they've been. Look at the 'Razor'. there is no reason to think that they will change all of the sudden because of the death of one man. There are more people then just Kim Jong-Il that call the shots, although he is a good figure-head he is still a figure-head that can be replaced far easier than the policies of an entire government.

Thank you to all those who took the time to read this debate, and thank you random mutations, you complete me....

We're off to the judges.

Judges comments...

This could have been a great topic but both debaters got off to a slow start and didn't really pick it up. Wormwood13 only asked a few Socratic questions and hyperion.martin used none at all. They are a great tool for advancing an argument. I like debates that rely on few external links. I would have liked to see more explanations of points from both although wormwood did tackle a couple.

Hyperion.martin missing a post really hurt him. So did not answering the Socratic questions.

I have to give this one to wormwood13. He just presented a better stance.

hyperion.martin Referred to here as HM
wormwood13 Referred to here as WW

HM tried an opening that is short and to the point, this works sometimes; this time not so much. WW came out with both barrels blasting in an thoroughly thought out and effective opening.

I thought HM was going to recover in his first real post, but he posted almost completely about religion and while I had to go back and read it, the topic was not about religion. I thought I knew where he was going with it, but he had plenty of characters left and never got to the point.

HM came around in the next post, but only just barely. It was difficult to follow his posts, as they strayed from the topic so frequently.

In the end, WW kicked some real butt in this debate. He stayed on topic and attacked his opponent very effectively. Should be one to watch in the future.

Win to wormwood13

wormwood13 wins and moves to the 2nd round.



This thread is now open to comments from other "fighters".