Antarctica Melting FASTER!

Originally posted by JayinAR
But you see, the crazy thing is that even though deforestization is creating warming in more specific locales (those being outside of the tropcial deforestization zones) it is being offset by melting of ice at the caps.

How is Deforestation offset by Glacial Ice Melts?

Man is not able to influence the homeostasis that is planet earth.

How do you know?
Some people do not believe that we have no effect.
Homeostasis is a system that Usually Life relies on in maintaining a stable and constant environment( Internal mostlywhen we look at all of life).
Humanity and its activity is changing many of these constant factors that the Earths Homeostatic processes maintain.
We damming, redirecting or are changing water ways, we are altering massive tracts of terrain, its plant and animal life.
We are polluting the seas, changing the chemical constants of the soils and the seas with fertilizers and pesticides and herbicides.
We are altering the genetic structures of plants and now animals, that have been created in a stable and constant process of evolution.
We are pumping all sorts of gases into the atmosphere.
We are cutting and burning massive tracts of land annually.
Soil erosion and soil salinity is are ever increasing problem. As is desertification.
Regional weather system and precipitation is changing in regions that have had constant and stable Glacial Ice that is now melting.
Not to mention the same has happened in regions where deforestation has occurred, and where water systems have been altered.

Homeostasis is not an Infinite system that is impervious to change or age.
In ALL organisms, it is faults, changes or imbalances in the Homeostatic process that causes many diseases and even Death.
Change, imbalance, and age in homeostatic systems increase pressure on any homeostatic system, this pressure effects efficiency to cope and ultimately we see Negative feed back that in organisms that will present as disease or illness or death.
So when you talk about Homeostasis, the Earth and life, look in the mirror.
You are an example of Homeostasis.
If you don't take care of yourself, you get Ill.
Your body gives you feed back. Like if you eat bad food, don't exercise and smoke, your negative feed back may be a heart attack due to the stress, pressure and inefficiency of your bodies ability to maintain a heathy stable and constant environment. Homeostasis.

If you think the Planet is any different, well sit back dude and and ignore the chest pains because you think Homeostasis cures bad habits.

Yes, we need to change some things... but what we need to change is our greed.
Otherwise, yes weather will get weird and ice will melt... but it won't destroy us.

I agree that we need to change alot of things.
I also think that we need to change the Idea that we and the earth are invincible.

What will destroy us is the greed of the politicians that think they can tax us for every problem they create.

I agree. Political solutions are often Local or Regional. They are Short term and motivated by National interest that revolve around economics and maintaining power.
If the scientist are right, this is a global problem. That requires a global unified solution.
In my opinion, politics as an institution and process of society just cannot cope.

Thank you for your thought provoking replies.

reply to post by A52FWY


That would be scientific fraud.
That is why there is a review process.

Grants are a competitive business.
As is science.
What would you do if you found out that one of your competitors for grant money, money that you could use for your own research was cooking the books?

I am guessing you would tell someone.
That is what the review process if for.

Which brings me to a very interesting point.
WHY are there NO WHISTLE BLOWERS.
Why are there no "Insiders", upset scientists that have missed out on their slice of the GRANT GOODIES TRAIN.
There are NONE. NOT ONE.
No tales of data manipulation, cheating, fraud in order to get cash!
No cash trail of fraud!
No leaked GOVT. memos pressuring scientists to conform.
Scientist have come out against Politicians in the Past.

Scientists and Smoking, insiders etc revealing damning data and evidence that was concealed.
Scientists and Doctors on Vaccines.

David Nutt is one that springs to Mind in the UK regarding a positions as a scientist advising Govt. Drug policy was sacked for questioning Policy.

Why have we not seen this with Climate Change if it is a big scam.


Interesting is it not?

What do you mean "no whistle blowers with Climate Change"? Have you had your head in the sand the last few days? Have you not read anything about the great global warming swindle AKA stolen emails from the university in GB?

Better go check out the forums in here to get all the info.................

Originally posted by SpinifexPrincess
What do you mean "no whistle blowers with Climate Change"? Have you had your head in the sand the last few days? Have you not read anything about the great global warming swindle AKA stolen emails from the university in GB?

Better go check out the forums in here to get all the info.................

I have read lots about it.
Lots of OPINION.
Lots of Accusations.
Lots of Conclusions jumped to on just a FEW WORDS.

Ok.
Show me who the Insider is.
It was hacked, from the OUTSIDE.

AND
Show me in those e-mails the data that is hidden.
Show me the research that destroys their claims, that they HID.
Show me the reports in those e-mails and research they released to the public that SHOULD have had that hidden data, research and information in them, but did not.
Show me.

Should be pretty easy.
I mean you have checked out the Forums haven't you.

oh for goodness sakes, don't tell me you got offended by what I posted?

Well since the University has authenticated the origin of the emails, I reckon we're pretty well assured they are genuine & the details are genuine.........BUT, if you don't want them to be, then that's okay too!

reply to post by SpinifexPrincess


I was not offended.

Just show me the data.
The University has said that the E-mails were taken.
So show me the authentic Data that should have been released, but was not, in those authentic e-mails.
Show me the reports and research, that the scientist accused of perpetrating a scam, released that should have contained hidden or changed data or research.

That is all I am asking.
Don't tell me that offends you!



Should be easy, after all they are authentic.

........, I reckon we're pretty well assured they are genuine & the details are genuine.........BUT, if you don't want them to be, then that's okay too!

You are assured by the emails.
So show me the data that was hidden.
Show me why you are sure scientific fraud has occurred.
Do tell the details that were omitted from published scientific work.



[edit on 24/11/09 by atlasastro]

Its all there, you just need to take the time to look at what's being said. There's a bloke here in AUS who is doing a great job of interpreting them, & wading thru all the waffle.

I never believed in global warming, polar ice cap melting is just another scam. Scientists providing false information just to keep their funding going----they don't want to put themselves out of a job, do they?

Anyway, you keep believing, it's your right at a human!

Originally posted by SpinifexPrincess
Its all there, you just need to take the time to look at what's being said. There's a bloke here in AUS who is doing a great job of interpreting them, & wading thru all the waffle.

Why do they need to be interpreted? The e-mail are in english.
How do you know its all there.
You can't even point out one piece of scientific data or research that was fraudulent!
Then you tell me to look up a "bloke in AUS".
I am betting you mean Andrew Bolt.
I have read lots of articles.
Tim Blair- This guy even quotes people in forums, just for their opinions. No evidence.
Piers Ackerman- another opinion piece writer attacking Policy based on the Hack scandal, again with no evidence from the e-mails of manipulated data.
No proof.
Just interpreting the talk in selected emails.
Opinion on what the email mean.
What they seem to be saying.
Accusations.
But no data that was hidden.
No research that was held back.

This is the gist of the entire scandal.

Selected and unverified extracts from the emails have been used by climate change deniers to claim that the scientists colluded to manipulate climate data, causing a storm on deniers' blogs. The charge is rejected as "despicable" by those involved and as groundless by leading scientific bodies.

The Charge throw at these scientists is this:colluded to manipulate climate data

I am simply asking you to show me what they manipulated.
Where is it?
Don't you want to know too?
Or are you just accepting the charges thrown at them based on the opinions of others without evidence?

I never believed in global warming, polar ice cap melting is just another scam. Scientists providing false information just to keep their funding going----they don't want to put themselves out of a job, do they?

So show me the false information. Should be easy.
I mean you say it is there.

Anyway, you keep believing, it's your right at a human!

Yes.
I mean you believe there is fraud going on. So show me.
Or is it just a faith, a belief without any real evidence?
Anyway, keep believing.

Originally posted by atlasastro
So show me the data that was hidden.
Show me why you are sure scientific fraud has occurred.
Do tell the details that were omitted from published scientific work.

lol, don't expect answers. They have none. Do keep asking, though.

Just a bunch of posturing, quote-mining, and blowing of hot-air. No wonder their teapot tempest is raging.

All they got: Smear, smear, spread doubt and fear.

[edit on 24-11-2009 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


You want proof of a fraud - here you go:
blogs.telegraph.co.uk...

Here's this morning's Washington Times:
www.washingtontimes.com...

This hasn't gotten much airplay in the US yet, mainly because our current President and Government is so heavily invested themselves in helping Mr. Gore pull the wool over the eyes of the US public to get their new "Carbon Market" established. Hopefully the near heroic deeds of this hacker will help these bastards to be hoisted on their own petards....DENY IGNORANCE - hopefully all you "Gore-ites" will now begin to see that you have been deceived by those you worship.

Senator Inhofe will today be calling for Congressional investigations into the INTENTIONAL misleading of the public by scientists being paid to skew the scientific data for the POLITICAL and BUSINESS ends of a few greedy politicians and business interests> The Hacker responsible for FINALLY exposing these bastards should be given the Nobel Peace Prize instead of a President who doesn't deserve it!

reply to post by atlasastro


www.abovetopsecret.com...

and

more importantly:

Earth Community Organization (ECO) and Earth Government (from hacked CRU e-mails)

care to explain what climate science has to do with a one world government? PS: absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The MSM had these mails in October for crying out loud (main thread) and did nothing. I presume we''d be lucky if we get to see more than one measely percent of what's going on.

[edit on 2009.11.24 by Long Lance]

You want proof of a fraud - here you go:

Yeah, more opinion.

Seen a lot of that over the last few days.

When you have the details of the specific data manipulation and the studies that effects and why it effects them. Do let us know. Otherwise no more than smears.

Cheers, ears.

[edit on 24-11-2009 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


How about you do some of your own work - you can go to the links that I provided earlier in the thread. READ THE EMAILS, your beloved leader is LYING to you...but its typical of the "pseudo-intellectual" profile for you to sit back, comfortable in your belief that you're SO on top of things that you couldn't POSSIBLY be scammed, happily marching along to the tune that your masters are playing for you. Don't BOTHER to do any research, just believe what you're told. Can I ask you a question - why do you even bother to post or even read anything on this forum? DENY IGNORANCE, remember? The very proponents of the Scam that is "man made Global Warming" have been exposed by their OWN EMAILS and documents. The debate is over, the proof is there. Now DENY IGNORANCE and go READ THEM. I hope that you are shocked, I hope you set aside your "smarter than thou" attitude and admit you've had - like the rest of us...I'm an Independent who voted for Gore AND for Obama....and I've been had - no more.

Well well - wonders never cease....yet ANOTHER extremely long term study that shows that Antarctica was 6 degrees celcius WARMER than today during ancient warming periods between ice ages....when there were only scattered humans on the planet, and NO industry, no cars, no factories spewing out the carbon emmissions that Mr. Gore's movie says is the cause of global warming....hmmm....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Where's Melatonin and the rest of the "Gore-ites" ?? What's the matter, cat got your tongue?

Originally posted by TSZodiac
Where's Melatonin and the rest of the "Gore-ites" ?? What's the matter, cat got your tongue?

Here, and laughing at your naff logic.

Never heard anyone in climate science deny that temperatures have been higher in ancient history. Not one.

Might as well try to deny the existence of matches because fire existed before man.

Originally posted by TSZodiac
How about you do some of your own work - you can go to the links that I provided earlier in the thread. READ THE EMAILS...

I have actually read some email and other information. Some people have posted them.

But it's not my job to support other people's claims of scientific fraud. Should be easy to support considering how convinced you all are.

[edit on 24-11-2009 by melatonin]

Hi Lance,
thanks for the links and the reply.

Originally posted by Long Lance
reply to post by atlasastro

 

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Explain where the fraud is. That is all you have to do.
These are emails describing the processes they are going through. Do you even understand what they are talking about?
Please explain this to me as you seem certain that this is evidence of fraud.
Or are you relying on the semantics you need to support a belief that these communications are evidence of scientific fraud.
Where does it say they are changing them to fool the scientific community and the world?

more importantly:

Earth Community Organization (ECO) and Earth Government (from hacked CRU e-mails)

care to explain what climate science has to do with a one world government?

Nothing.
Care to explain to me how a website from 2003 is proof that a one world government is being promoted by the material in the CRU hack?
Just the facts please. Not the innuendo.
Just the emails from CRU that state we need a one world government.

PS: absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Show me the evidence then.
Show me the research that was published that if fraudulent.
Link it to these emails.
Show that these scientist colluded to commit fraud.

The MSM had these mails in October for crying out loud (main thread) and did nothing. I presume we''d be lucky if we get to see more than one measely percent of what's going on.

[edit on 2009.11.24 by Long Lance]

Copenhagen.
That is why.
Its a smear campaign.
Timing is everything.

If there was real fraud going on, Skeptics would be jumping up and down to see the hang man.
Instead all we have is wide spread opinion pieces in News Papers.
No evidence of Fraud.







[edit on 24/11/09 by atlasastro]

I doubt that there are many on this thread that know for sure one way or the other about the validity of homocentric global warming. It would be nice if an OPEN concentrated study were made, with all data visible, posted, and available for study and research. However, that will most probably NEVER happen. I am certainly not an expert on the intricacies of Global Climate Change. However, as a retired professor, I can claim to be somewhat of an expert on what, unfortunately goes on, with regard to research and data, even though I personally was NOT a researcher.
First, you must understand, that for researchers at Universities and other institutions of higher learning, funds are everything. In addition, much of the research that is funded has the outcome predetermined. In plain English, organizations or corporations pay institutions to "research" certain issues or products, with the desired results predetermined.
I have absolutely no doubt that this is what has happened with respect to homocentric global warming.
Think about this- if homocentric global warming is "proven", it opens up a huge marketplace for products, services, and of course, government taxes.
On the other hand, if homocentric global warming is DISPROVEN, that ENTIRE marketplace collapses.
Someone blew the whistle on this "research". It looks like they will have to find another SCAM to bilk people with. Have no fear, though, they always do.

Originally posted by loner007
Its all lies all lies the antartica isnt melting........I wonder how long before someone posts a comment like this.......

Is this how low you people turn to?...

Could you please show us who is saying NATURAL Climate Change is not happening??.....

Please show us where I, or some of the other members are saying this...

This is part of what gets me with the AGW fans..... To them is like Climate Change can ONLY be manmade....



Whenever you two, and a few others learn to grow up, and learn how to properly make an argument then you might realise the idiocity of what you two have been claiming all along...

Already loner007 has shown me in his U2U that he can't make an intelligent argument, all he does is send insults in U2Us just like the spoiled child he is...

[edit on 24-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by melatonin

Here, and laughing at your naff logic.

Melatonin and logic don't go together, they repel each other to their last breath.

Originally posted by melatonin
Never heard anyone in climate science deny that temperatures have been higher in ancient history. Not one.

Might as well try to deny the existence of matches because fire existed before man.

Originally posted by TSZodiac
How about you do some of your own work - you can go to the links that I provided earlier in the thread. READ THE EMAILS...

But you have heard, and read several times that CO2 lags temperature changes, CO2 doesn't lead, and in the history of Earth there has been time periods when atmospheric CO2 was much higher than nowand there was COOLING instead of warming, and there have been times when atmospheric CO2 was much lower than now and it was WARMER.

This shows the fact that atmospheric CO2 is neglegible as a ghg, and it doesn't cause the warming claimed by the AGW fans.

Originally posted by melatonin
I have actually read some email and other information. Some people have posted them.

But it's not my job to support other people's claims of scientific fraud. Should be easy to support considering how convinced you all are.

So you do have a job around here, i wonder if it has anything to do with deceiving, lying, exagerating, lying some more, repost the rigged data from the Mann clan, etc, etc, etc....

Thank you for dropping by and adding your thoughts Prof.
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

I doubt that there are many on this thread that know for sure one way or the other about the validity of homocentric global warming.

I disagree, I think we are all sure. On both sides. Whether or not that confidence is warrented is another debate entirely, as is evident by threads like this, I guess.

It would be nice if an OPEN concentrated study were made, with all data visible, posted, and available for study and research. However, that will most probably NEVER happen.

I agree. It would be nice to if the skeptics are just as open with their blogs, funding and twisting as much as anyone too.

I am certainly not an expert on the intricacies of Global Climate Change.

Join the club.

However, as a retired professor, I can claim to be somewhat of an expert on what, unfortunately goes on, with regard to research and data, even though I personally was NOT a researcher.
First, you must understand, that for researchers at Universities and other institutions of higher learning, funds are everything. In addition, much of the research that is funded has the outcome predetermined.

I appreciate you insight. But how does a University or group convince NASA or Private enterprise that own satellites etc. to predetermine the readings they get from these "hardware and observational sources". As this is what has occurred with the Article and the study I linked.

In plain English, organizations or corporations pay institutions to "research" certain issues or products, with the desired results predetermined.

I don't want to sound facetious Prof. But Really!
That is great news. So all those Medical researchers and Institutes researching cancer cures , etc., etc. They already know they have a cure for cancer?

I have absolutely no doubt that this is what has happened with respect to homocentric global warming.

Well then, it will be in the e-mails. Corporations and funding Bodies should be in there telling the researchers the predetermined results, and there should be emails from the researchers agreeing. There should also be altered, manipulated, omitted data that should have been included in Published works.
So there will be a clear cut case of academic fraud payed for by funding parties in these Published, Peer reviewed works.
So, all we need now are these Published works.
The emails with the data that was omitted, altered or manipulated.
And Bobs your uncle.

Think about this- if homocentric global warming is "proven", it opens up a huge marketplace for products, services, and of course, government taxes.

It also destroys a pre-established economy based on Fossil Fuels. So there is plenty of interest, funding in Debunking it too, Prof.

On the other hand, if homocentric global warming is DISPROVEN, that ENTIRE marketplace collapses.

Do You think this market place even scratches the surface of the Markets it is threatening?
My country via its Climate change Budget will generate 4.5 billion dollars via its licensing of Carbon emitters. In 2012-13 it plans to invest the bulk of these licenses in new "clean" jobs, research, infrastructure etc. Roughly 13b dollars into new sectors of business compared to the history of previous fossil fuel and power subsidies, this is not even a dent.
Not to mention the exemptions, subsidies and grants that the coal mining sector, petroleum and Natural gas sectors, forest industry or automotive sectors have been handed.
Currently My government subsidizes Transport and Electricity costs( that is fuel and power from fossil fuels) for business and industries to the tune of 10 billion a year. The reason they will not remove these subsidies is due to costs inflating nationally which will result in a drop in demand, that will cost jobs and businesses.
This is where our taxes Go. Subsidizing fossil fuels. Subsidizing coal based electricity for industries.
There is a lot of Government(taxes) being handed over to pay the Power, gas and electricity Corporations.

So if we are going to site Marketeering by scientists as a motivation to make stuff up, the other team is so big as to render the generation of this market, its value and its potential, as a joke.
These industries have tried to do this. Tried to squash the science. Just like the cigarette companies. Just like the companies that produced CFC's.

Someone blew the whistle on this "research". It looks like they will have to find another SCAM to bilk people with. Have no fear, though, they always do.

Perhaps the scam is that we believe we are having no effect on the planet?
Perhaps the scam is that we think the earth is impervious to human activity?

I agree though that it is valid to point to some of our poorest habits, that of exploiting others for personal gains, as being a possible motivator in per-suing research grants in this field.
But you also need to show fraudulent pre-determined research that was altered, manipulated or had data omitted or obscured so as to bring about the funding or the pre-determined results that where subsequently published.

The emails don't do that.

Thanks again for you personal insights and thoughts.