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Tension high between British, US military

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posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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Tension high between British, US military


www.heraldsun.com.au

HOSTILITY between US and British military leaders in Iraq ran deep, with one describing his US counterparts as a "group of Martians", it has been reported, citing leaked government documents.
The top British commander in the country, Major General Andrew Stewart, said "our ability to influence US policy in Iraq seemed to be minimal" in the first year of the conflict, according to documents published by the Daily Telegraph.
(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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What did they expect would happen?

A massive war machine, sent in to pillage the country under a guise of restoring democracy, is not going to be the most friendliest, communicative entity.

The coalition of the willing seem to become the coalition of the whingers...


A leaded army analysis published by the newspaper on Sunday showed Britain had no effective plan for what to do after coalition forces overthrew leader Saddam Hussein following the 2003 invasion.

It's not surprising that the stuff-ups and blunders are now starting to be leaked. Hopefully, there's more to come. It would almost be comical to read, if not for the fact that lots of people were murdered in the conflict.


Colonel Tanner said: "The whole system was appalling. We experienced real difficulty in dealing with American military and civilian organisations who, partly through arrogance and partly through bureaucracy, dictate that there is only one way: the American way."

Enough said, I guess. Although, this is the opinion of one British soldier. I have no doubt that lots of people wouldn't value his input as anything more than an annoyance.

www.heraldsun.com.au (visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 11:22 PM
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Tension high between British, US military


Very interesting read. And all this time I assumed Britain And America were on the same page. I guess we are not. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 12:00 AM
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I fail to see how this fits in BAN at all.

I think you are about 6 years late on this one. Am I missing something here that links this to any relevent modern news?



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by wiredamerican



Tension high between British, US military


Very interesting read. And all this time I assumed Britain And America were on the same page. I guess we are not. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.


I know most Americans assume Europeans, especially Britain, are "allies" with the US, but if you have ever gone to Europe, you'll likely find this NOT to be the case. Now keep in mind I am not talking about everyone as a whole, but the majority of people I met while in Britain were vehemently anti-American. If you even slightly mention that they may be a bit biased or simply anti-American, the first thing they tell you is that your an "arrogant American" etc. For whatever reason, there has been an upsurge in anti-americanism in recent years in europe Some say it was George Bush, but I have been to europe before GWB was president and I can tell you that this has been going on for years.

The following is my personal opinion, if it is inflamatory then I apologize: personally would hate to have to deal with the british military given their arrogance at times. I guess everyone is prone to certain egotisms, but as far as most cultures go, the british can rank no. 1 as most annoying.

Again, this is my PERSONAL opinion based on MY experience in England. This is in no way intended as a slander against the british people. They have wonderful schools and do have some very good qualities. I am just saying that as an American having anything to do with most of the British, you will be instantly pre-judged as an arrogant cowboy. Guarantee it.



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by wiredamerican



Tension high between British, US military


Very interesting read. And all this time I assumed Britain And America were on the same page. I guess we are not. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.


I thought this too. That we were buddy-buddy. It seemed that way anyway.



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by NightoftheComet
 

I have to agree that many normal Aussies I know don't think much of the USA or Americans... Arrogant is often the number one word used to describe them, along with loud and boorish.

I'm not trying to provoke anything at all. Generalised judgements are often harsh but that's the reality of it.

I wonder what the Aussie soldiers really think about 'working' with the yanks and poms? (vice versa too)



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 



I actually went to grade school in England and let me tell you, they may be tolerant of Pakistanis, Turks, and other minorities but they don't cut Americans ANY slack. Maybe this is because its an OK prejudice, I don't know. I do know that the Scots are almost equally despised so I found a friend or two there
.



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout
I fail to see how this fits in BAN at all.


True another source has it at.

British, US military tensions over Iraq: report

The statements were made in official interviews conducted by the Ministry of Defence with army commanders who had just returned from Iraq during the first year of peacekeeping from May 2003 to May 2004.


Here is another snippet on the situation.


An army analysis published by the newspaper on Sunday showed Britain had no effective plan for what to do after coalition forces overthrew leader Saddam Hussein following the 2003 invasion.



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 01:14 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


From the source


The top British commander in the country, Major General Andrew Stewart, said "our ability to influence US policy in Iraq seemed to be minimal" in the first year of the conflict, according to documents published by the Daily Telegraph.


I realize these documents were "just leaked" but why are we talking about something that was said the first year of the war? Is it relevant to the present? Is there any other information? Was this the perception of only a few or many? Did the cooperation between the two countries improve? What is the current perception?

Ed: add another question



[edit on 23-11-2009 by LadySkadi]



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 01:27 AM
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These confidential British Government documents were leaked to the Daily Telegraph newspaper (London) over the weekend, hence the story's appearance in breaking news.

It gets better -


Among the most outspoken officers was Col Tanner, who served as chief of staff to General Stewart and of the entire British division during Operation Telic 3, from November 2003 to May 2004. He said: “The whole system was appalling. We experienced real difficulty in dealing with American military and civilian organisations who, partly through arrogance and partly through bureaucracy, dictate that there is only one way: the American way. “I now realise that I am a European, not an American. We managed to get on better…with our European partners and at times with the Arabs than with the Americans. Europeans chat to each other, whereas dialogue is alien to the US military… dealing with them corporately is akin to dealing with a group of Martians. “If it isn’t on the PowerPoint slide, then it doesn’t happen.”



Col Tanner’s boss, the top British commander in the country, Major General Andrew Stewart, told how he spent “a significant amount of my time” “evading” and “refusing” orders from his US superiors. At least once, say the documents, General Stewart’s refusal to obey an order resulted in Britain’s ambassador to Washington, Sir David Manning, being summoned to the State Department for a diplomatic reprimand - of the kind more often delivered to “rogue states” such as Zimbabwe or the Sudan.


I guess if the relationship between American & British commanders was so poor 5 or 6 years ago, has anything changed during the intervening period ?

The Daily Telegraph



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 01:43 AM
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I think it's really sad what american and british political figures put the military and their personel through everyday. Only, to bring a suppossed democracy to Iraq which is really a modern day oligarchy. I.E. THE delaying of the upcoming election because the current prime minister is afraid he;s going to lose too badly. Lose his Gun?

Today, they released the story about how Tony Blair had already decided to go to war, along with the promise of an inquiry into the on goings that lead up to the war.
Everyone knows Bush had had his mind made up for a while as well before even the ultimatum given to Sadaam.

Now my opinion doesn't mean much, but just think...If Tony Blair or even Georgio gave you an ultimatum about anything what would you do. Those guys are jokes, Like Al Gore and Joe Liberman, or John Kerry and John Edwards, Or even Sarkozy and Brown.
I think I'd laugh.I wonder if this is what they had in mind for Iraq.

What these polititans put the military through after all this is someday going to be considered a new form of torture by many. Though the polititans would like you to think that it a form of vigerous training to help us learn how to know one another.That these are the everyday battles that we must make, and that life ain 't easy.

It just seems like it's one thing after another when it comes to these stories coming out of Iraq, and ther're only getting worse. Why don't they all just get along, I guess the little people are just going to have to wait until this is all over, then. It's too bad, it's awful, it's catastrophic,///It's another lesson?

So many false idols with so much military personel, What to do. I wonder what they have in store next. Probably diamonds. We can all fight over diamonds!!!! Excellent.
So anyway respect the military and what they have to say about their experiences because it's not often. I'm just glad this isn't another media expose exclusive for me to get all excited about I guess.

Cheers lets hear what they have to say and about their stories they have about one another. This might finally be what we've all been waiting for anyway. This is probably the only honest story that has come out of iraq since the invasion, and something tells me there is more to come.

Hey, do me a favor and get this video out to everybody you can. I know it's not Rick Ashley or anything, but it's pretty good.



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 09:04 AM
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Funny. I never had any problems when I dealt with either British or Australian troops in the field. I mean, except for the fact we sometimes had a difficult time understanding their English and they ours!



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 09:19 AM
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I don't hate America or Americans- I'm glad that the US prevailed and not the USSR, I admire the American patriotism and would love to visit their wonderous and awe inspiring land.

In terms of a special relationship with us Brits- there is none, there hasn't been, there wasn't even in WW2, it was all about one Empire replacing another- I feel embarrassed by our political leaders following along like little doggies with whatever Bush demanded- and I speak as someone who would also like to withdraw from the EU



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by NightoftheComet
Again, this is my PERSONAL opinion based on MY experience in England. This is in no way intended as a slander against the british people. They have wonderful schools and do have some very good qualities. I am just saying that as an American having anything to do with most of the British, you will be instantly pre-judged as an arrogant cowboy. Guarantee it.


Correct but my experience in the US of your general attitude towards the British and French was one of complete disdain and dislike, the Arrogant European thing was pretty rife towards them. It works both ways..

At the end of the day for me and most of my friends, as much as we may dislike the US empire (And I do, a lot, but the US and its people is not the US empire), every individual should be treated with respect and stereotyping and generalizing should be kept to a minimum.

Its unfortunate for you that you will be prejudged like that but in fairness, the amount of Americans that have come before you that have given you this bad name.. first two that spring to mind are that George Bush and the never ending anonymous insulting online dung flingers.

If you were on this side of the fence, you'd understand. And though it is unfair, its not like people in the US are exactly nice towards us "Europeans".. we do get your tv.. we know what it says about us. Of course some of us are gonna be pissed over it.



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 10:08 AM
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look at the differences the way the north of teh country and teh south were dealth with - the brits have finished and are out - 20 years in ireland and they know what to do - baghdad is still a mess 6 years later - thats what you get for listening to a country who`s idea of population controll is dropping chemical weapons on them )israel bomibing well everyone with WP)


not the first time we`ve heard the USA wont listen - they still dont - Germany wants them out and they refuse to leave.



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin 20 years in ireland and they know what to do - baghdad is still a mess 6 years later


I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean- I am one of the majority British population residing in Northern ireland, I've been here for 35 years



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 10:18 AM
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Yep Yet ANOTHER case of them finding old news and making it new again. Why does this keep happening. What little is "new" about it they report as if the story had never been reported before. I wish I had thought to keep track of all these instances. Surely the writers of this story could do a little digging and say, as rumored or reported or disclosed in 2004, blah blah and now substantiated by blah.



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


look at the method`s the brits used in basra - they didn`t blow open houses constantly and try to make the locals hate them - which is what they learnt from the time spent in belfast (amoungst other places) direct and constant heavy handedness does not work.



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 10:57 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


Which, if you read General Tanners comments fully, is exactly what he was complaining about. The American attitude of "we do it OUR way", regardless of the consequences. For example, their ill judged attempt to arrest Moqtada al-Sadr caused a massive uprising in Basra (majority Shiite) where up until the point, the British had got on fine with the locals and it was a peacful place. The Yanks arrested him, without even letting the British know and let us deal with the great poo-storm they created.

He also goes on to criticise the lines of communication (or lack of) with his American counterparts and their refusal to take advice from people more experienced in counter-insurgency warfare.

The British are experts at this...we did have the world biggest Empire at one point, so dealing with upstart locals is something we know.

You certainly don't deal with upstart locals by bombing them from 30,000 feet then sending in tanks.... They seem to resent that somewhat...



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