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What’s your Best EVIDENCE ‘FOR’ or ‘AGAINST’ God? Intellectual debate, please…

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posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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reply to post by watcher73
 


I'm giving you resources to accomodate your belief.

If you want to believe the Universe is infinite, cold death will explain the Universes eventual death.

If you believe the Universe is finite, then from your standpoint, heat death will explain it.

From my viewpoint, heat death will work in an infinite system. I mean...I don't know if I am wrong in my presumptions however I do think that even if the Universe was infinite, it could still be an isolated system.


In the natural sciences an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings. It obeys a number of conservation laws: its total energy and mass stay constant. They cannot enter or exit, but can only move around inside. An example is in the study of spacetime, where it is assumed that asymptotically flat spacetimes exist.

en.wikipedia.org...

Does that not sound like the Universe?




posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by dusty1
.......Maybe life will be everywhere. We may just be on the beginning of the curve.....



SETI would disagree...

They are the ones being PAID to find something...

AND YET NOTHING????


How do you know its not classified?



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by watcher73
 


I'm giving you resources to accomodate your belief.


No youre not. Its your belief. Youre just trying to weasel your way out now.

Here let me quote you... "we know the universe will end heat death due to the laws of thermodynamics". Then you said "The universe will succumb to maximum heat entropy only if there is no big crunch ie. it is an infinite system."

So to sum it up, you said the universe WILL end in a heat death, and that its infinite. But now you say a cold death awaits an infinite system?


If you want to believe the Universe is infinite, cold death will explain the Universes eventual death.
If you believe the Universe is finite, then from your standpoint, heat death will explain it.




From my viewpoint, heat death will work in an infinite system. I mean...I don't know if I am wrong in my presumptions however I do think that even if the Universe was infinite, it could still be an isolated system.


Because youre smarter than Thompson? More educated?


In the natural sciences an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings. It obeys a number of conservation laws: its total energy and mass stay constant. They cannot enter or exit, but can only move around inside. An example is in the study of spacetime, where it is assumed that asymptotically flat spacetimes exist.

en.wikipedia.org...


Does that not sound like the Universe?


Does an inflating universe sound flat or closed to you?



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker


Thx for the post...so you think ORDER and DESIGN are not evidence of an intelligence?

OT


What order and what design?



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 01:08 AM
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Evidence for: look around you. life, matter, mystery

Evidence against: look around you. pain, suffering, disease

What is evidence?

There is so much evidence that the moon exists that it's not even funny. It's right up there in the sky! All you have to do is go outside and look up to see it!

Yet, there are still people who believe that it does not really exist and that it's a hoax perpetrated by some sinister global cabal.

The proof is in the pudding, and I hope we each get our own just desserts.

If the moon is really there, how did it come to be so? Did mankind place it there? I don't think so. Big bang? Ok, where did the colliding particles come from? If space is really empty, then where did all the emptiness come from?

I believe the "emptiness" exists only because we have "consciousness". I think that life and all that exists is manifested by some level of consciousness. What is consciousness? Is consciousness the "Holy Spirit", or "God"?

I do not believe that any credible evidence exists either for or against the existence of "God".

Nor do I believe there ever will be.



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by watcher73

No youre not. Its your belief. Youre just trying to weasel your way out now.

I'm not squirming thank you very much. Like I said, I was providing resources to accomodate YOUR BELIEFS. MY BELIEFS were already stated.


Here let me quote you... "we know the universe will end heat death due to the laws of thermodynamics". Then you said "The universe will succumb to maximum heat entropy only if there is no big crunch ie. it is an infinite system."

So to sum it up, you said the universe WILL end in a heat death, and that its infinite. But now you say a cold death awaits an infinite system?

Okay, from MY VIEWPOINT, the universe will end in heat death even though it is an infinite system. I supplied the cold death because you obviously don't think an infinite Universe could be an isolated system, whereas, I do...


Because youre smarter than Thompson? More educated?

Does an inflating universe sound flat or closed to you?


It doesn't matter if it's inflating or not. That's not the description of an isolated system. IN FACT, the Universe is possibly the only TRUE isolated system.


In 1862, Thomson published "On the age of the sun’s heat", an article in which he reiterated his fundamental beliefs in the indestructibility of energy (the first law) and the universal dissipation of energy (the second law), leading to diffusion of heat, cessation of motion, and exhaustion of potential energy through the material universe while clarifying his view of the consequences for the universe as a whole. In a key paragraph, Thomson wrote:

The result would inevitably be a state of universal rest and death, if the universe were finite and left to obey existing laws. But it is impossible to conceive a limit to the extent of matter in the universe; and therefore science points rather to an endless progress, through an endless space, of action involving the transformation of potential energy into palpable motion and hence into heat, than to a single finite mechanism, running down like a clock, and stopping for ever.[4]


In the years to follow both Thomson’s 1852 and the 1865 papers, Helmholtz and Rankine both credited Thomson with the idea, but read further into his papers by publishing views stating that Thomson argued that the universe will end in a "heat death" (Helmholtz) which will be the "end of all physical phenomena" (Rankine).[3][5]
en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by fmcanarney
Creation is the first evidence of God.
The power of God is displayed in the universe, at night.

Conscience is the second evidence of God.
All beings know right from wrong.


Snakes with vestigal hind limbs disprove creation. All beings ( i assume you mean people) do not know right from wrong or there could be no insanity defense in court. Besides the fact that what is right and wrong is taught and not inborn. If you know already why did you need all those bible quotes, or a bible at all? Thats an awful lot of rules for people who are supposed to know right from wrong already and from and consequences from an oh so loving god.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness…


Really? Historically religion has suppressed more truth than any other group I can think of. Xtians burned the library at Alexandria. Theres a secret lirary in the Vatican. Should I go on?



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 01:34 AM
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reply to post by watcher73
 



All beings ( i assume you mean people) do not know right from wrong or there could be no insanity defense in court. Besides the fact that what is right and wrong is taught and not inborn. If you know already why did you need all those bible quotes, or a bible at all? Thats an awful lot of rules for people who are supposed to know right from wrong already and from and consequences from an oh so loving god.


The bible has the moral laws so that we are assured they are sins. Once we know that it is indeed prescribed as sin, then we are judged accountable. Masturbation for example is something that a lot of people don't think is morally wrong. However, it is a sin.



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by Agree2Disagree


It doesn't matter if it's inflating or not. That's not the description of an isolated system. IN FACT, the Universe is possibly the only TRUE isolated system.


You are right. It doesnt describe an isolated system. It could only describe an open system.

In fact.


In 1862, Thomson published "On the age of the sun’s heat", an article in which he reiterated his fundamental beliefs in the indestructibility of energy (the first law) and the universal dissipation of energy (the second law), leading to diffusion of heat, cessation of motion, and exhaustion of potential energy through the material universe while clarifying his view of the consequences for the universe as a whole. In a key paragraph, Thomson wrote:

The result would inevitably be a state of universal rest and death, if the universe were finite and left to obey existing laws. But it is impossible to conceive a limit to the extent of matter in the universe; and therefore science points rather to an endless progress, through an endless space, of action involving the transformation of potential energy into palpable motion and hence into heat, than to a single finite mechanism, running down like a clock, and stopping for ever.[4]


In the years to follow both Thomson’s 1852 and the 1865 papers, Helmholtz and Rankine both credited Thomson with the idea, but read further into his papers by publishing views stating that Thomson argued that the universe will end in a "heat death" (Helmholtz) which will be the "end of all physical phenomena" (Rankine).[3][5]
en.wikipedia.org...


You quoted the same thing I did. Do you see where Thompson says endless space and never ending transformation of motion into heat?

edit: Whats with the paragraph about what someone thinks he thought? Is what he said not clear enough?

You say the universe is infinite, yet will end. Infinity means never ending. Tell me how you reconcile that contradiction in your head?

[edit on 27-11-2009 by watcher73]



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by watcher73

You quoted the same thing I did. Do you see where Thompson says endless space and never ending transformation of motion into heat?

edit: Whats with the paragraph about what someone thinks he thought? Is what he said not clear enough?

You say the universe is infinite, yet will end. Infinity means never ending. Tell me how you reconcile that contradiction in your head?

[edit on 27-11-2009 by watcher73]


That paragraph is his two proteges. Often times science takes time to really develop and become more precise. You're going to assume that the earlier assumption is correct when there was more scientific studies to be made after that. Okay. That's fine by me.

The characteristic of infinite is what brings about it's own death. It expands to the point to where no more work can be done.

www.usnews.com...
imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...




posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by watcher73
 



All beings ( assume you mean people) do not know right from wrong or there could be no insanity defense in court. Besides the fact that what is right and wrong is taught and not inborn. If you know already why did you need all those bible quotes, or a bible at all? Thats an awful lot of rules for people who are supposed to know right from wrong already and from and consequences from an oh so loving god.


The bible has the moral laws so that we are assured they are sins. Once we know that it is indeed prescribed as sin, then we are judged accountable. Masturbation for example is something that a lot of people don't think is morally wrong. However, it is a sin.


This has nothing to do with insane people not knowing right from wrong. I assume they are beings?

Is someone who never read the rules to know they are sins absolved? Also the egyptians had an advanced moral code in place, including some of the 10 commandments (almost word for word) well before a bible existed and they had many gods. Why does your god infringe on the egyptian gods copyright if he is so moral?

Also several studies have shown that atheists are actually more moral than most religious and that nations with a higher percentage of atheists have more money per capita, are healthier and have a higher standard of living. I think the US was the only exception. That seems like an odd discrepancy for people not following the rules and denying the holy spirit. You can find those studies in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism.



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by watcher73

This has nothing to do with insane people not knowing right from wrong. I assume they are beings?

Is someone who never read the rules to know they are sins absolved? Also the egyptians had an advanced moral code in place, including some of the 10 commandments (almost word for word) well before a bible existed and they had many gods. Why does your god infringe on the egyptian gods copyright if he is so moral?


It is absurd to think that one could "copyright" morality! Me personally, I believe that if one HONESTLY 100% DOES NOT KNOW they committed a sin, they'll be absolved, yes.



Also several studies have shown that atheists are actually more moral than most religious and that nations with a higher percentage of atheists have more money per capita, are healthier and have a higher standard of living. I think the US was the only exception. That seems like an odd discrepancy for people not following the rules and denying the holy spirit. You can find those studies in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism.


I'm not concerned with these things. Why would I be? I am only concerned with my own morality. I cannot make them change their wrong-doings. What do you want from me? I can't represent all christians nor can you represent all athiests.

I suppose Stalin is an exception to those oh so moral athiests....

[edit on 27-11-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

[edit on 27-11-2009 by Agree2Disagree]



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 02:38 AM
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Originally posted by Agree2Disagree


That paragraph is his two proteges. Often times science takes time to really develop and become more precise. You're going to assume that the earlier assumption is correct when there was more scientific studies to be made after that. Okay. That's fine by me.


His quote was well after his first paper on the subject. I'm not questioning further studies. Im questioning that they argue his meaning when he made it quite clear well after he published his first paper and there were only two papers on that by him.


The characteristic of infinite is what brings about it's own death. It expands to the point to where no more work can be done.


Infinite and death. Sigh. Would you say your infinite god could end or die?

Besides, heat death is just a theory.




[edit on 27-11-2009 by watcher73]



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 02:45 AM
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Originally posted by watcher73
His quote was well after his first paper on the subject. I'm not questioning further studies. Im questioning that they argue his meaning when he made it quite clear well after he published his first paper and there were only two papers on that by him.

Infinite and death. Sigh. Would you say your infinite god could end or die?

Besides, heat death is just a theory.


[edit on 27-11-2009 by watcher73]


Well, you can accept his theory, that is perfectly acceptable. That doesn't mean he is correct. I'll take more scientific studies and elaboration over the initial summary any day.

No I would not because my God exists outside our realm of scientific principles and laws. (also, He is not a "system" which is subject to entropy)

A theory, yes. A very well-accepted theory mind you.


[edit on 27-11-2009 by Agree2Disagree]



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by watcher73

Originally posted by OldThinker


Thx for the post...so you think ORDER and DESIGN are not evidence of an intelligence?

OT


What order and what design?



a n y.....

second line

OT

PS: Are you familiar with the Central Limit Theorem and 'data'?



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by slimpickens93
.....I do not believe that any credible evidence exists either for or against the existence of "God".

Nor do I believe there ever will be.


So you think, the following was just made up and it just one human's opinion?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Saul of Tarsus

"...clearly SEEN..."

"....from what has been MADE...."

"....without excuse..." eeekkkk



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 12:01 PM
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WELL,
the existence of angels, beings of light, evidence to me that there is a God directing their activities.
I was electrocuted fifteen years ago with 15,640 volts. Died in physical body, and my spirit/soul, left my physical body to be greeted by two beings of light, angels. They asked me if I wanted to die, and of course I said no.
They returned me to the physical body and with the bubble of protection around me assisted me in unhooking myself from voltage and jumping to my safety.
This electrocution lasted one minute. The visit with the angels lasted less than two seconds.
Where did these beings come from? Dispatched by GOD from heaven.
Their purpose? To allow me to exercize my free will. My freedom of choice.
Be very careful exactly how you choose to exercize your volitional power, your free will, your freedom of choice, for one day there will be an accounting of those choices.
Every being is imbued with knowledge of God, within their heart/will.
This is reflected in the display of the hand of GOD in the heavens at night.

Be very cautious and careful in exercizing your free will, in conjunction with the nature of humans, which is to be proud, for pride and free will denies the evidence of God both within the being and within that which was created, the universe.



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 08:00 PM
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I guess I would equate GOD to all that is good. but that would be wrong. I guess deep down I would say my SciFi version is more to what I would say. I believe we are not alone, nor have we ever been alone. If you noticed technology stalled for what 1,000 years. and all of a sudden the clock ticked 1800's and whamo ... 200 years and we are on the threshold of what some say are biblical Revelations... I will be with you till the end of the age. and the new Age of Aquarius begins a new. that usually means things like Noah's Flood, Sodom and Gamora... 2012 .... Nibiru ..........
Pardon me while I yawn... sorry bout that...

so, yes I feel something of extreme importance is upon us. but I refuse
to be a slave to it. so I guess, I will see yall in the camps - until we are processed for consumption by aliens.
burp.. excuse me.



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by fmcanarney
WELL,
the existence of angels, beings of light, evidence to me that there is a God directing their activities.
I was electrocuted fifteen years ago with 15,640 volts. Died in physical body, and my spirit/soul, left my physical body to be greeted by two beings of light, angels. They asked me if I wanted to die, and of course I said no.
They returned me to the physical body and with the bubble of protection around me assisted me in unhooking myself from voltage and jumping to my safety.
This electrocution lasted one minute. The visit with the angels lasted less than two seconds.
Where did these beings come from? Dispatched by GOD from heaven.
Their purpose? To allow me to exercize my free will. My freedom of choice.
Be very careful exactly how you choose to exercize your volitional power, your free will, your freedom of choice, for one day there will be an accounting of those choices.
Every being is imbued with knowledge of God, within their heart/will.
This is reflected in the display of the hand of GOD in the heavens at night.

Be very cautious and careful in exercizing your free will, in conjunction with the nature of humans, which is to be proud, for pride and free will denies the evidence of God both within the being and within that which was created, the universe.


You know that is odd....I remember once being quite young, I'm not sure my exact age. I don't remember much of it but I do remember being asked if I was ready to die. Until now, I never really thought much of that experience. Perhaps it was a dream, maybe not...who knows. Your post reminded me of that....



posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

So you think, the following was just made up and it just one human's opinion?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Saul of Tarsus


I wouldn't say "just made up" or "one human's opinion".

I would say that it's a conclusion arrived at by many humans and as such has become a very credible philosophy shared by a very large percentage of humans.

The quote itself however is "just one human's opinion".

Regardless, the statement is not credible evidence either for or against God..



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