What’s your Best EVIDENCE ‘FOR’ or ‘AGAINST’ God? Intellectual debate, please…

Originally posted by bowlbyville
I realize that the OP was looking for an argument against God but I want to provide a slightly different view. Many people subscribe to the Primordial Soup theory (single-celled animals miraculously sprung up out of muck); but I have one (big) problem with this theory – prophesy.

How can human beings prophesize about the future if they arose from single-celled animals? I don’t see how it’s possible…and ‘yes’ I know a guy who can perform it with consistently (I don’t care whether you believe me or not, it’s true). So I’m going to argue that if we didn’t arise from single-celled animals, our origins must be from some other means – God seems to be the only reasonable answer.

bowlbyville, pls feel free, tell us about "that guy" we are open....

Life comes from pre-existing life. There is no evidence to the contrary. Science was able to split the atom and release it's energy, I think the opposite is possible, all matter and physical life was first in the form of energy. A creative force that exists outside of time and space, made of up energy then turning it into matter, seems reasonable to me.

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by Monts

 

so by that logic gods creations can be evil? making god and satan the same person?

Fundamentally, yes, however it depends on what the definition of evil is. I personally believe that evil is temptation- temptation to to deviate from the light. Evil is necessary then, because without temptation, we would live in a perfect world. We would never know the true meaning of peace and love of we didn't have temptation to make a choice against it! Evil therefore, is not some kind of evil manifestation, like satan, but the ability to choose against what is the better good. Satan therefore is not God, but an absence of God. The link to God is always present, but Satan is the temptation and decisions we make that weaken this link, and cloud its meaning.

Originally posted by dusty1
Life comes from pre-existing life. There is no evidence to the contrary. Science was able to split the atom and release it's energy, I think the opposite is possible, all matter and physical life was first in the form of energy. A creative force that exists outside of time and space, made of up energy then turning it into matter, seems reasonable to me.

A creative force that sits out of time and space...hmm?

I guess 'Ishikawa' may have had a point!

Thx dusty!

OT

reply to post by Monts


then even further wouldnt that make pure happiness without evil and suffering ... purgatory? By that train of thought wouldnt heaven be purgatory? purgatory or earth as it stands already....

[edit on 22-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

Since each individuals definition of God differs, there can be no debate.

Is God
- A sentient being with human form? We are, supposedly, made in His image.
- The most fundamental explanation of the unknown?
- A word to describe the laws that govern life, the physical world and beyond?

With our knowledge and understanding about our world and the ones beyond it further expanding, the faith structure of religions is slowly beginning to shift. It seems now that modern religion exists to merely place God into our current understanding of the universe. This in turn forces us to change the definition of what or who God is based on our current understanding. Basically, our vision of who or what God could be, evolves with every new breakthrough of our understanding of the universe.

I suggest this holiday season, let us look to one another rather than to the heavens. Give thanks to those around you and to those less fortunate. In my mind, every single being on this planet are gods, imagine how much this world would change if we all started treating each other as such.

Happy holidays.

Originally posted by BillyumH
....I suggest this holiday season, let us look to one another rather than to the heavens. Give thanks to those around you and to those less fortunate. In my mind, every single being on this planet are gods, imagine how much this world would change if we all started treating each other as such.

Happy holidays.

BillyumH, man that is an excellent thought, thank you...

Al tho OT suspects some will look to an historical example of LOVE, as inspriration...to each HIS own, huh?

Thx for joining!

OT

Hmm... well I’m a Christian... I believe in God for many reasons... I have no scientific evidence for the existence of God... but then it wouldn’t be faith would it!

My belief in God is reinforced when I view the wonders of nature and consider its creation... You can’t chuck a stick of dynamite at a pile of rocks and then "boom" you have a house... it takes a creator to create... not a big bang!

My belief is reinforced because when I’m alone I don’t feel alone!

I went through a stage in my life when I rejected God... but something pulled me back... I never knew what that was until recently... I was lonely without God in my life!

For those of you that don’t believe... don’t judge me to hard... it may seem strange to you but for me, and millions of others, it works.

peace

reply to post by OldThinker


Truly I wish I could say more about "that guy"...frankly, if I didn't see his work first-hand, I'd say I was full of crap...so I don't blame anyone for not believing in prophecy unless you've seen it first-hand...I have about 500 pages of notes...spanning five years...I can't share them at this time...eventually I will...but I can't for the foreseeable future.

reply to post by conspiracyrus


Again, by definition of words, yes.

I don't really believe in a "heaven" or "hell"... I believe that death brings you into a realm where you are totally aware of the greatness and goodness that comes from God. In face of this light, you will obviously be aware of the times you doubted the greater good, and this awareness is what purgatory is. The realization that you chose wrong over right in the face of the right is purgatory. However this doesn't mean that all of the afterlife is purgatory, or earth itself, because any wise man will tell you that ultimately, the past is meaningless. Life isn't about what we have done, it is about what we are doing! The past is simply an illusion created by the brain to make sense out of change. You will know the mistakes you have made, but you won't feel constant guilt and sorrow for them because there is nothing you can do to change what you have done... you can only learn from it.

Evil comes from God, but it is not God, simply the absence of God. God had to create what it is not so that it could know what it is. That is the glory of the experience of 3 dimensional life- you are experiencing what you are not, therefore you can know what you are. According to my personal philosophy and beliefs, we choose the lives we want to live before we live them, on the basis of what will provide us with the most opportunity for growth and development- i.e. finding out who we really are. This doesn't mean that there is no free will or choice, it just simply means that we choose the conditions and environment in which we see ourselves as growing and learning the most. What you chose to create and decide from these conditions is what matters!

We don't remember who we really are because that would ruin the lesson! It would be like giving students the answers to all the questions on a test; they would get 100%, but wouldn't really learn anything from it. The information will be there, but they won't be able to remember it and apply it to future uses and contexts. Life is the same... if we were given all the answers, it wouldn't be very interesting anymore... in fact it would be miserable! There would be no quests for knowledge or truth, simply existence.

reply to post by Muckster


Well said friend!

Many people have been able to turn their lives around and change for the better by finding God in their lives, and whether or not people think its garbage, it works!

The beauty of finding God, like you said, is that once you have found God, it never leaves! You always know God is there, and that you truly are never alone! The feeling is magnificent, and the actions that stem from this feeling give evidence enough that even if there is no God, the concept of God is something that can give people almost untold quantities of strength and endurance! And as far as I'm concerned, any concept that give people this kind of power is one that is real!

reply to post by OldThinker


I also think selfless love is proof. I met a man who's wife was murdered. She died, because she stood between her daughter and her daughters stalker. Unfortunately he had a gun, and he used it. This woman died protecting her child. Now, some may say that it is simply an evolutionary reflex to protect her offspring. But unlike an animal, a human can understand what will befall them. When I see a truly selfless act motivated by love. You don't have to be a believer to display this quality of love.

When I see examples of this, I believe the Artist is reflected in His art.

All I can say is that "I" have had personal experiences where Jesus intervened and saved me, not only in the accepted term of being "saved" but from (what could be nothing more in description) than demons. I called on him when I was being attacked..and when I called out his name and repeated some of his words...the demons ran as if in pain. Also I was in the military and know of demolitions and explosives and that pretty much shoots the big bang theory right out of the water..as explosions have never created anything but a big mess. That seems like common sense to me, but the debate on this still rages. What I do know is that you can't find GOD by using intellectualism. You can't outsmart GOD and get into heaven.Just the very fact there are those that try separates them from GOD because they are already in opposition to him by saying he doesn't exist. If you don't believe in GOD, well, there is really no discussion for you anyway. Nothing can be told to get you to believe, you have to WANT to believe and get 'saved' and then things will all become clear. Trying to understand or debate GOD (Jesus) by using intellectualism creates nothing but MORE confusion because science ultimately leaves us with nothing but more questions. Even the answers we`re given by science aren't always correct, they constantly keep updating information like the WINDOWS OS updates exploits. Science is like Chinese food, the more you eat, the more hungry you get. Ask any Christian and they will tell you they KNOW what GOD/Jesus is about and what is going on and are no longer searching for the answers. Why? Is it because they think they are so much smarter than everyone? No! It is because of our "experience" of being saved and calling on the name of the one true GOD, the GOD of Mercy, Love and Wrath. These are traits no different than any parent would have but the wrath is to teach you through admonishment and the mercy and love is to heal and console. Itellectualism, in opposition, to GOD is why the world is in the shape it is in. the world has always been a dangerous place, but how much worse, and how fast did it happen that the world has literally become a "hell on earth" to live in now that we have removed GOD from schools and courts and marriage. If we are so much smarter now than when we had GOD, then why is the world so much worse to live in now? Let me guess, because of different religeons. Well, Jesus said (1 Corinthians 1:10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.What did we do with all of our intelligence? We split the churches up into all forms of different beliefs. Different religeons, different denominations, there are even those mixing Jesus up with aliens and UFO's now. This is what happens when we intellectualize GOD. We outhink ourselves and spiritually sling ourselves into oblivion. GOD let`s those go that think they are smarter than him just as a parent would to a kid who thought they were so smart that they could make it on their own without their parents (and we are but children to the GOD of ages), but he is always willing to take you back ..but only when you learn who`s in charge. The rebels say, what kind of GOD will do this to his children, the answer is a GOD who cares more about your soul than your body. Why is it so easy for GOD to snuff a whole island full of people to make an example to the world. You must try to see it as GOD would (yet not try to mimic him). I am guessing that to destroy bodies to save souls is an acceptable price to a GOD who loves YOU..not your flesh. Do I have any concrete `proof` that GOD exists? NO! But no one has proof of him NOT existing either. The word faith occurs 247 times in 231 verses in the KJV version, more in translated version. That being said, I don`t think you can find a GOD who requires faith when you are faithless and have no inclination to want to believe. He will let you get choked out by your own intellectual devices and then you will question just how smart you really were. It is then you will go on bended knee and call for the one true source of intelligence. Jesus. Just remember one thing, GOD threw out the most intelligent angel he had for trying to overthrow him, who was also loved, so we know that rebellions can happen in heaven. That said, maybe, just maybe, GOD requires faith because it `proves` to HIM that we are going to be faithful and not give him all of the trouble that he is having with SATAN=Lucifer now. We would certainly be no threat to him, but let`s face it, a well behaved child is much more pleasant to live with right? If SATAN was so impertinent that he thought he could `outsmart` GOD, doesn`t that, in essence, potentially explain why the world, (ruled by Lucifer currently), is so hellbent on intelligence over faith and everything that exists in a material world? Also some might want to visit prophesies in the Bible, they are currently 100% accurate and we can clearly see the rest coming to pass right before our very eyes. Uhem,....The Mark of the beast (or the chip) for one, which I might add has changed their name AGAIN!!! It was pitched Verichip and Digital Angel (as if that name doesn`t say it all), then they renamed the chip several times, from `the chip` to `Xmark` and it is now `PositiveID`, Here is the ATS thread with all of the links to prove this , but make no mistake about it, it will be for every man and woman great and small, free and bond to accept this mark or be numbered with what the new society will deem as `outlaws to the great cause`. (Revelation 13:16-17) A cause, that you will be told is beneficial for you, yet will really enslave people by their own intelligent, GODless ways. The result will be permanent separation from GOD, because this chip will have so much control over those that accept it, that there will be no way for them to repent. It will interface with your neurological system and there will be little control over your true emotions once they start tampering with your body`s electrical makeup and your brain. Not to mention, the fact that we were warned roughly 2000 years in advance. So, in summation, you will not find proof of GOD until Jesus takes believers up `in the twinkling of an eye` and for the rest, it will not be utopia.


[edit on 22-11-2009 by Phenomium]

(Part 2)
Just so ya know, Christianity even has an answer for the age old question of which came first ..the chicken or the egg.

(Genesis 1:21)

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

I have always just wanted to point that out and never got to. LOL. The `winged fowl`
or chicken....came first.

There is no evidence for the existence of any god and an idea cannot be proven to not exist. It's a circular debate that will never end.

the best argument is ... no one knows what god is ... so really, what god are u talking about

the god that says sex is a sin, or the god that say that when you die killing some people you will have sex with a lot of woman or what?

really, I think the question u should ask is HOW MANY GODS ARE OUT THERE

because, for what I know, there are a lot

I prefer the god that gives the women ... really! If I had to choose

Originally posted by Monts
The only real argument that stands against God creating the universe is the idea that the universe expands and contracts infinitely, or there are countless universes being constantly popped into existence. The problem with both these ideas is that they imply the concept of infinity, which can't exist in our 3 dimensional universe.

I personally believe that my conscious mind is all the proof I need that there is some kind of God. If everything is just random chances and accidents, there would be no way I would be here consciously experiencing my world from my body's perspective. Why am I only experience this body's experience and not someone elses'? If I am here consciously experiencing this world, why would my conscious experience end when I die?

A great book to read about this subject is Lee Strobel's "The case for a creator". It covers almost all the topics and evidence pointing to the existence of a creator. And if anyone is wondering what "solid evidence" there is, DNA is that evidence. Even in the most primitive single celled organisms, the sheer amount of information held and processed in DNA is just incredible- too incredible to be the product of chance.

My only question about God, is what is God?

RESPONSE:

`The only real argument that stands against God creating the universe is the idea that the universe expands and contracts infinitely`

(Job speaks of GOD)
Job 9:8
which alone spreadeth out the heavens,
and treadeth upon the waves of the sea;

Isaiah 40:22 - It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Isaiah 42:5 - Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to those who walk in it:
Isaiah 44:24 - Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth--Who was with me?
Isaiah 51:13 - and have forgotten the LORD, your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, and fear continually all the day because of the fury of the oppressor, when he sets himself to destroy?
Zechariah 12:1 - An Oracle The word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus says the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

....................just sayin`.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by Phenomium]

Originally posted by Faiol
the best argument is ... no one knows what god is ... so really, what god are u talking about

the god that says sex is a sin, or the god that say that when you die killing some people you will have sex with a lot of woman or what?

really, I think the question u should ask is HOW MANY GODS ARE OUT THERE

because, for what I know, there are a lot

I prefer the god that gives the women ... really! If I had to choose

The problem is.....you can`t CHOOSE who or what GOD is. The clay cannot shape the potter. As for a supposed god that gives you 70 virgins for strapping on a bomb and killing as many innocent people as possible in the name of a particular religeous cause. This is nothing more than brainwashing at it`s best. They are blowing themselves up for a promise of something that will never happen. How do I know? BECAUSE THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH IS A CARNAL DESIRE.It is something we do IN THE FLESH to express our feelings for one another. When you die and shed your flesh (body) what need will you have for 70 virgins then? 70 women to nag you is all you'll have LOL. Some heaven.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by Phenomium]

I think evidence for a God is the spiritual need people seem to have. This manifests itself in many ways. Many people wonder were we came from, and why are we here? Many have carved images of wood and stone to worship. Some drink beer on Sunday, wearing their lucky underwear, thinking if they cheer hard enough, their team will win. Others may eagerly open a fortune cookie hoping for a hint at their future. Drugs are an age old way to tap into the spirit world. Athiests put their faith in nature and science and preach it as gospel. Some are fascinated with UFO's.

Some of us post on internet forums.

I think humans have an inborn spiritual need. Not all are conscious of it.

I have an answer does that not prove either side...but gives a possibility to both.

First off, I believe that the answer is not logical. Everything in this universe has a set of laws and physics that it must follow...except the actual reason behind it all. That is why we will never find out what "made" everything, because it will make no sense to society as a whole. Even if people "know" what the answer is, no one is absolutely certain their philosophy is right.