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What’s your Best EVIDENCE ‘FOR’ or ‘AGAINST’ God? Intellectual debate, please…

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posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 04:53 PM
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What’s your Best EVIDENCE ‘FOR’ or ‘AGAINST’ God? Intellectual debate, please…

As we head to the Thx-giving and Christmas seasons (in America), I think of all the great memories from those holidays.

Are the multitudes grateful/expressing thankfulness to NO ONE?

Also, do ‘believers’ really have the ‘corner’ on goodness?

I thought I’d start an intellectual discussion on the BEST arguments FOR and AGAINST God.

To get us started, here are the Top 4 FOR a Devine Entity…my hope is to have the ATS skeptics/atheists chime in with their best arguments AGAINST a God.


1. Cosmological Argument

The term “cosmological” comes from the Greek word “kosmos” which means “world.”

The cosmological argument for God’s existence goes like this: The world could not exist on its own so there must have been a first cause that brought it into being. This first cause is God. Or put another way, the universe could not just exist on its own—someone or something must have made it. This cause of the universe is God.

Three criticisms of the cosmological argument have been offered. First, some say matter is eternal and is not in need of a “first cause.” Second, some say “If everything needs a cause, what caused God?” Third, some say that even if it is true that some being caused our universe to exist, this does not prove the existence of the Christian God. All it shows is that there is some powerful being that created the universe, but this does not necessarily mean that this creator was the God of the Bible.

2. Teleological Argument

The teleological argument is also known as “the argument from design” (The Greek word “telos” means “purpose” or “design.”). The argument goes like this: The universe evidences great complexity or design; thus, it must have been designed by a great Designer or God.

The argument from design can be likened to a watch. A watch is obviously made by a watchmaker. The world, which is much more complex than a watch, must also have been designed by a great Designer or Divine Watchmaker (God).

In sum, the teleological argument asserts that the universe evidences too much complexity to be the product of random chance. We know that the celestial bodies move with perfect accuracy in their orbits. Our bodies, too, are incredibly complex. According to the teleological argument, there’s just no way all this complexity could “just happen.” God must have created it all.


There have been three responses to the teleological argument. First, some say the teleological argument is guilty of a “weak analogy” because it assumes a significant resemblance between natural objects (ex. rocks, trees) and objects we know have been designed (ex. watches, skyscrapers). Thus, comparing natural objects with objects we know have been created by humans is like comparing apples and oranges. The analogy just doesn’t work. Second, some say that the theories of the big bang and evolution better explain the complexity in the universe. Third, some say that even if the teleological argument is true, it does not prove the existence of the Christian God.


3. Ontological Argument
The third argument for God’s existence is the ontological argument. This argument is unlike the cosmological and teleological arguments in that it does not argue from evidence in the natural world. Thus, it is not a “cause and effect” argument.

The ontological argument can be stated in this way: “God is the greatest being imaginable. One of the aspects of perfection or greatness is existence. Thus, God exists.” Or put another way—“The fact that God can be conceived means that he must exist.”

This argument for God’s existence was developed by the twelfth century theologian and philosopher, Anselm. It is based on Anselm’s declaration that God is “that which nothing greater can be conceived.”

The ontological argument has been very controversial. Even many who believe in God’s existence question its validity. A contemporary of Anselm named Guanilo responded to Anselm. Guanilo said that one could imagine a perfect island but that did not mean a perfect island exists. Others have said you can imagine a unicorn but that does not mean unicorns exist. Thus, many challenge the idea that the idea of God must mean that God exists.


4. Moral Law Argument

Another argument for the existence of God is the moral law argument. It goes like this: Without God morality would be impossible. There must be a Lawgiver (God) who originates and stands by moral law. A universal moral law cannot exist accidentally. There must be a basis behind it—God.

According to this view, every person is born with an inherent understanding of right and wrong. Everyone, for instance, understands that killing an innocent person is wrong. Everyone understands that helping a drowning person is right. Where did this internal understanding of right and wrong come from? According to adherents of the moral law argument, this understanding comes from God. He put it into the hearts of every person.

There have been two responses to the moral law argument. First, some deny that there are universal truths. Many today believe that truth is subjective and relative. Societies and individuals determine what is true for them, but there is no God that does this. Second, some say that the presence of evil in the world argues against a Moral Lawgiver. If God is all-powerful and all-good, how can evil exist in the world?

The arguments and counterarguments for God’s existence remain controversial. The cosmological, teleological, and moral law arguments remain popular with Christian apologists today. The ontological argument is not as well received although some today still asserts its validity.

It should be noted that most Christian theologians and philosophers believe that God never intended for his existence to be something that could be proven with 100% certainty. They point out that faith is an important component in understanding God and his existence.


Let’s strive to make this an intellectual discussion, with no flaming ok?


Link: www.theologicalstudies.org...


The
T




posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:05 PM
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heh there really cant be any debate on the issue as any "evidence" is speculation at best , and even worse Occam's razor doesn't work ... everything randomly happened vs some all knowing all powerful super being made it happen... both are equally ridiculous conclusions imo

yeah im agnostic...

[edit on 22-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by conspiracyrus
heh there really cant be any debate on the issue as any "evidence" is speculation at best , and even worse Occam's razor doesn't work ... everything randomly happened vs some all knowing all powerful super being made it happen... both are equally ridiculous conclusions imo

yeah im agnostic...

[edit on 22-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]


hey friend, I hear you...

probably true conspiracyrus , but for disscussion-sake, let's let those (from experience and perspective) with differing beliefs chime in, ok? should be interesting, huh?

Hope all is well!

OT


[edit on 22-11-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:21 PM
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The only real argument that stands against God creating the universe is the idea that the universe expands and contracts infinitely, or there are countless universes being constantly popped into existence. The problem with both these ideas is that they imply the concept of infinity, which can't exist in our 3 dimensional universe.

I personally believe that my conscious mind is all the proof I need that there is some kind of God. If everything is just random chances and accidents, there would be no way I would be here consciously experiencing my world from my body's perspective. Why am I only experience this body's experience and not someone elses'? If I am here consciously experiencing this world, why would my conscious experience end when I die?

A great book to read about this subject is Lee Strobel's "The case for a creator". It covers almost all the topics and evidence pointing to the existence of a creator. And if anyone is wondering what "solid evidence" there is, DNA is that evidence. Even in the most primitive single celled organisms, the sheer amount of information held and processed in DNA is just incredible- too incredible to be the product of chance.

My only question about God, is what is God?



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:27 PM
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There is no evidence for any of the countless gods, none at all. Same can be said for evidence proving there are no gods, it can't be done. Using logic and reason you cannot believe in the existence of gods, sky fairies, goblins and so forth. You need blind faith, you believe for some illogical reason or need.



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by Monts
 



Monts, thank you for contributing to the thread....all must review your pts/evidence and decide.

OT



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:33 PM
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Well if i had to argue a point i guess id argue against the existence of god. My argument would simply be

Why?

Why would god create all of us and then deny us of his presence?

Why would god allow the righteous to be martyred by the wicked?
Did he not lay siege upon many a city raining brimstone?

If god is all powerful wouldn't he destroy Satan and rid the world of temptation?


[edit on 22-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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My best evidence AGAINST God is that I have found no convincing evidence FOR God.



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by DraconianKing
There is no evidence for any of the countless gods, none at all. Same can be said for evidence proving there are no gods, it can't be done. ......



DraconianKing, you make a great, balanced point here....thank you for joining!


OT



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:42 PM
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I was practically forced to go to a Christian church since early childhood (Assembly of God), and had to all the way up until I moved out of my parent's house, around 18.

So, I have to wonder, if I came into the world and no one had ever introduced me to church, made me go to Sunday school, etc., would I have this nagging feeling that God exists? Or do I simply feel this way because it's what I've been led to believe since birth?

I have a feeling in my soul that we aren't just random mutations, that we're here because we were put here by a higher being. Whether this being is the God of the Christian bible or what have you, I'm not certain. I think about it a lot though.



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by godless
My best evidence AGAINST God is that I have found no convincing evidence FOR God.


Hey godless, thanks for joining...and your thoughts on the lack of evidence.

Any thoughts on the OP's presentation? Specifically the 'Top 4' presented FOR a Creator?

OT



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by diccolo
I was practically forced to go to a Christian church since early childhood (Assembly of God), and had to all the way up until I moved out of my parent's house, around 18.

So, I have to wonder, if I came into the world and no one had ever introduced me to church, made me go to Sunday school, etc., would I have this nagging feeling that God exists? Or do I simply feel this way because it's what I've been led to believe since birth?

I have a feeling in my soul that we aren't just random mutations, that we're here because we were put here by a higher being. Whether this being is the God of the Christian bible or what have you, I'm not certain. I think about it a lot though.


wow!


What a transparent post!

OT

Maybe the is "JOY in the journey" of DISCOVERY?

I dunno?



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Welcome back OldThinker, I was waiting for another of your threads to pop up, I oh so enjoy them.

This is an interesting concept, but allow me to explain why I can't answer your question, and why nobody really will be able to do so and prove their point all at once.

You can't quantify faith or belief. Either a belief in God or a belief against God cannot be proven, simply because Science has not given us the answers.

But here's the real question. CAN science give us the answer?

No, simply because science is only our best guess at the time. Even things that we hold as being true in mathematics, physics, medicine, are only described as such because the tools we are using give us a certain understanding of how things work, and we toy and medle and eventually find the best possible solution for the times.

At the moment we have no solution. Proponents for God argue that they have all the proof required in the Gospels along with archeological evidence proving the existance of Jesus, which in tern proves the existance of God.

However, people who against that argument will use the EXACT same evidence. They will say that Bible written decades after the death of Jesus, some of it by people who never knew him, but were "prophets" who were extending the word of God on paper. They will state that the archeological evidence is wish washy at best and it only proves that the Bible gives an accurate description of people who lived in those times, not their actual identities.

It's an extremely hard topic to discuss, especially in a place like ATS where various different beliefs collide and bounce of each other.

Now if we make this a question of personnal belief using personnal experience to quantify and prove whatever side we are on, the debate takes on a whole new face.

I believe in God, but a god unlike any other I've read about. What makes me think that? My experiences during bouts of meditation, OOBE's among other things have shown me things.

Sounds I had never heard, colors I had yet to know existed.

Science would tell me these were electrical discharges in the brain which caused me to see these things, but my belief, or my inner being says otherwise.

Who do you trust?

~Keeper



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by OldThinker
 


Welcome back OldThinker, I was waiting for another of your threads to pop up, I oh so enjoy them.....



Hey tothetenthpower,

So glad to see you here...

Yeah, I had some time tonight...down in Tampa, visiting the nursing home to see OOOOOLD mom, still can't believe she is still here...ornory (SP? :puz
as ever


You make some great observations...would love to know more about the OOBE's you went thru.

OT



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by conspiracyrus
 


Why?

The answer is simply... to experience itself. If you were all that there was, and nothing else existed but you, you could never know what you are! It is all about polarity; nothing can truly exist unless it has an opposite. How would we know the true meaning of peace, love, joy, and happiness without war, hate, and sadness? The only way we can truly experience who we are is to be given the choice of what we want to experience and create. Without options, there would be no choice!

It is all about the experience of figuring out who you are, and what you are. That is why we are so curious about our reality! It is only through interaction and having the choice that we can reflect upon who we are! God created us in his image for a reason... because ultimately, we are all a part of God, and therefor we are God!



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by diccolo
I was practically forced to go to a Christian church since early childhood (Assembly of God), and had to all the way up until I moved out of my parent's house, around 18.

So, I have to wonder, if I came into the world and no one had ever introduced me to church, made me go to Sunday school, etc., would I have this nagging feeling that God exists? Or do I simply feel this way because it's what I've been led to believe since birth?

I have a feeling in my soul that we aren't just random mutations, that we're here because we were put here by a higher being. Whether this being is the God of the Christian bible or what have you, I'm not certain. I think about it a lot though.


I feel the same way you do, and ask myself the same question a lot, and that's kind of what brought me to this thread. My parents never forced me to go to church, but there was no questioning of God in my house. Currently, I'm very caught up in the teachings of Buddha, but I always have this feeling that there is a God, although I don't associate it with Christianity. My parents weren't Christian; and I feel as though the feeling is only there for sociological reasons -- not valid feelings of a real God. Hopefully this thread will show some enlightenment for the both of us/



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by Monts
 


so by that logic gods creations can be evil? making god and satan the same person?



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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I realize that the OP was looking for an argument against God but I want to provide a slightly different view. Many people subscribe to the Primordial Soup theory (single-celled animals miraculously sprung up out of muck); but I have one (big) problem with this theory – prophesy.

How can human beings prophesize about the future if they arose from single-celled animals? I don’t see how it’s possible…and ‘yes’ I know a guy who can perform it with consistently (I don’t care whether you believe me or not, it’s true). So I’m going to argue that if we didn’t arise from single-celled animals, our origins must be from some other means – God seems to be the only reasonable answer.



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 06:08 PM
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reply to post by Hereno
 


MY MD friend, that was the purpose of OT's thread...trying to get folks to think...and to hear from others and their experiences...

The ATS-er's will rise to the occasion...and we will learn, no doubt!

Sorry bout the skins and ravens , huh? touch season


OT



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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Yeah, I had some time tonight...down in Tampa, visiting the nursing home to see OOOOOLD mom, still can't believe she is still here...ornory (SP? :puz
as ever


Longevity is always something to be thankful for my friend. I'm glad you take the time to visit.



You make some great observations...would love to know more about the OOBE's you went thru.


The OOBE's I have experienced, well there are many, mostly revolving around the same type of setting. I've been doing them for about 10 years now and usually try to have about one a week. Keeps me grounded.

They were different in the beginning. I spoke only to one being whose face I could not describe, it was always a blur. I will relate my first experience to you thought.

I was sitting comfortably in my Gazeebo, meditating, when I felt a tugging deep inside my gut. Knowing that some negative entities are always trying to gain the upper hand in those that dable in meditation, I shrugged it off.

It came back stronger however about 3 minutes later, and I had no choice this time, it was taking me. I was lifted from my body and up into the sky, out in to the universe where I was privy to scences of stars and galaxies.

Upon realizing that this might be a dream, I found myself in a room, seated accross a table from this being. He was not grandiose, it seemed very comfortable to me as well, as if I was meant to be there.

I could hear music, but the sounds were unfamiliar, like an orchestra of light. The colours were magnificient, they changed from dark hues to lights, to some I can't even describe.

For the first time I was able to smell and taste sound. I know it sounds strange.

Me and the being conversed for what seemed like hours, about life in general, about my path, my children's and what I was doing to move forward with my life and not keep the "status quo".

I had several of these same experiences over that year, by the end of them I came to the realization that I was conversing with myself, or my soul for that matter.

The topics at hand always seemed mundane and somewhat out of place, but later on they became very clear. Things like my husband's cancer and my son's immune defiency I was about well before they happened, although not exactly in those terms.

Later I began having experiences where more than one person was present. It could only be described as a panel of judges sitting high while I stood low. However there was never a sense of them being more important than me, they were helpfull, insightfull and showed me a path to enlightenment which I still to this day follow.

I hope my description makes some sense to you, as it has certainly changed my life. I have always wondered who the panel was, Angels? Demons? Who knows.

But they've had an impact on my life, and have led me to where I am today, and for that I am thankful.

~Keeper


[edit on 11/22/2009 by tothetenthpower]

[edit on 11/22/2009 by tothetenthpower]



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