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Hemorrhagic flu in US, says Polk County Coroner, deaths under-reported

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posted on Nov, 26 2009 @ 02:32 PM
reply to post by apacheman

Fifth, he fails to account for the possibility that live virus vaccines may have contributed to the development within swine herds.

That has been my personal choice to explain the big get together and if he'd explored that one I might have been less "opposed" to his conclusions.

At least we know now why the research community rejected the paper so quickly and intensely. I'd still like to know why he waited this long after those rejections and then published anyway.

I'm sure at least a few of the better researchers will write up counter papers now, I can't wait to read those.

posted on Nov, 26 2009 @ 03:09 PM
Is there anyone in Iowa who can give us a first hand account. Is it business as usual there or confusion/panic?
This does not appear to be the same thing that happened in Ukarine becuase if it was there would be alot more deaths by now. Ukarine had almost 400 deaths in a region of thier country in only 4 or 5 days.
If it ever becomes bad here I am going to post on here exactly what is happening,
I really apperciated asen's first hand account in Ukarine.
I live in the Midwest so I really hope it does not get bad. I work from home so except for getting groceries I could pretty much stay home.

posted on Nov, 26 2009 @ 04:09 PM
reply to post by dreamseeker

No, it took several weeks for the death count to reach 400, and the base conditions are quite different, so it's not a simple matter of saying if it was so there, then it will be such here.

There are many variables involved, and at the moment we aren't sure which are the crucial ones, except for five I'm aware of. Is it distance from agricultural areas? Crowding? Blood type?

The five factors that have been id'd so far have been temperature (cold), humidity (wet), time to seek aid, i.e., how long do people wait to get help. The fourth is that not many have a natural immunity and fifth, the virus is unstable.

From those certainties, you can extrapolate a few others you can be pretty sure play a part: medical infrastructure, level of unemployment, crowding, base health levels, the level of general systemic stress.

That's why keen observation and accurate reporting of what is happening in our own neighborhoods is crucial right now. If the thing mutates in a bad way, we here will be the first to see it and define its borders.

Anyway, it's hard to compare experiences yet, the Ukrainian version has a long incubation and shedding period if I recall correctly, I could be wrong on that though. We'll see after the holiday.

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 01:44 AM

Originating Laboratory
provider of clinical specimen(s)
and/or virus isolate(s) [Ukraine, Kiev] Ministry of Health of Ukraine
Address: Central Sanitary Epidemiological Station 41 Yaroslavskaya str. 04071 Kiev Ukraine
Sample ID given by the sample provider
Submitting Laboratory
generator of data [UK, London] WHO Collaborating Centre
Address: The National Institute for Medical Research (NIMR) The Ridgeway - Mill Hill London NW7 1AA, UK
Sample ID given by the sequencing lab:
Antigenic characterisation: A/California/7/2009 like. Low reactor

Isolate ID: EPI_ISL_62012
Isolate name: A/Lviv/N6/2009
Passage details/history: throat swab
Type: A / H1N1
Lineage: swl

The above isolate has been designated a low reactor by Mill Hill.

This would fall into the EXTREMELY bad news category. It means that not only does D225G drive the H1N1 to the lungs, but it allows the virus to evade the natural immune response / vaccine.
(Latest comment on update by Dr Niman)

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 02:45 PM
It is definitely worldwide now, and turning nasty.

Worldwide Transmission of D225G
Recombinomics Commentary 06:45 November 27, 2009

The recently released sequences from patients in Ukraine provided valuable insight into the pathogenicity of H1N1 and the genetic change associated with the total destruction of both lungs in fatal cases.

The description of the patients and the spread of receptor binding domain change, D225G, to multiple genetic bakgrounds via recombination led to the prediction that D225G would be found in the lung samples from fatal cases.

The release of the sequences by Mill Hill confirmed the prediction. Sequences from 10 isolates were released and all four fatal cases had D225G. Moreover, all 9 cases from western Ukraine, which were from three Oblasts (Ternipol, Lviv, and Khmelnitsy) were from the same sub-clade as the fatal cases, but the samples from the upper respiratory tract did not have D225G. The absence of D225G from the upper respiratory tract is not a surprise because the specificity of D225G included alpha 2,3 receptors which are present in the lungs. Thus, the sub-clade with D225G can expand and cause a cytokine storm which destroys the lungs. Moreover, sequences with D225G have been designated as low reactors by Mill Hill, raising concern that immune responses and vaccine will select for D225G.

Although D225G transmits from patient to patient, only the samples from the fatal cases, which were from lung and throat samples were positive for D225G. The sequences from Ukraine led other countries to more fully investigate samples. Norway, which had seen an increase in fatalities announced the detection of D225G in two fatal and one severe case. Although those sequences have not been released, 25 HA sequences were subsequently released and one sequence had D225G as a mixture, confirming the mixed nature of samples with D225G.

Moreover, the sequence with D225G was the same sub-clade as Ukraine, and several matching sub-clades were in subsequent samples, but those samples did not contain D225G, again pointing to a requirement for sampling of appropriate tissues.

The implication of this sub-clade in the increase in deaths in Norway was the finding that the first fatality was also linked to the same sub-clade. The patient, 43F, was in previously good health and given a prescription for Tamiflu after visiting the hospital. However, she was sent home and died two days later. This type of rapid death had been noted for many of the Ukraine cases. Full sequences were generated confirming that the NA sequence was closely related to the NA sequences from western Ukraine, but the sample was from the trachea and did not have the D225G. However, the association of this sub-clade with the first patients death and the finding of D225G in the first isolate matching this sub-clade support D225G transmission as a mixture, with detection in appropriate sampling of the lower respiratory tract.

Phylogenetic analysis of public sequences indicate that the Norway/Ukraine is widespread, strong suggesting that D225G has sread worldwide. However, detection of D225G, as was seen in Ukraine requires that the proper samples are tested.

The finding of D225G in four of four fatal cases in Ukraine leaves little doubt that the polymorphism is transmitting and the recent classification of Ukraine sequences carrying D225G suggests the spread will accelerate. The finding of the same change in unlinked patients in two Oblasts in western Ukraine is similar to the finding of swine H1N1 in two counties in southern California in April. The fact that the two California cases had no link to swine or each other, and were collected from patients over 100 miles apart conclusively demonstrated that the swine H1N1 was efficiently transmitted human-to-human and many more cases would be identified. The data from Ukraine conclusively demonstrate that D225G is efficiently transmitting and the transmission traces back to earlier isolates from Norway of the same sub-clade with D225G.

Since D225G is frequently not detected in samples from the upper respiratory tract, another method of tracking is through phylogenetic analysis, which shows that the Norway/Ukraine sub-clade is widespread, even though all HA sequences do not have D225G, as was seen in Ukraine.

The worldwide transmission of the Norway/Ukraine sub-clade, or other sub-clades with D225G raises concerns that associate hospitalizations and fatalities will have a significant uptick as an increasing number of patients get exposed to this sub-clade linked to D225G.

More surveillance of low respiratory tract infections would be useful.

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 02:54 PM
It seems like the virus is fighting back.

What the data say is that it is mutating to avoid the immune system's id codes. Multiple mutations at the D225 receptor binding site allows it to sneak past the vaccines and immune system. The H247Y mutation protects it from Tamiflu. So it's spreading undetectably and selecting for resistance, and doing so in multiple locations because everyone's using the same remedy, so they are all forcing the same kind of mutations.


Just freaking great.

D225G and H274Y in Fatal Infection in France Recombinomics Commentary 17:30 November 27, 2009 In a statement, the Institute suggests "Reference of mutations in the genome of influenza virus A-H1N1" from these two people who had no relationship and were hospitalized in two different cities. InVS was that for one of these patients, in addition to this mutation, another known mutation that is resistant to Tamiflu, the drug used to treat people infected with the virus.

The above translation describes two fatal cases in France with D225G. Moreover, one of the two cases also had Tamiflu resistance, presumably H274Y.

The presence of D225G in unrelated patients at distinct locations mirrors the results in southern California in April, when swine H1N1 was initially reported in the United States. The same strain in two patients who had no link to swine or each other signaled efficient transmission. The same is true for D225G. It is in multiple patients in multiple countries and appearing at increasing frequencies at the same time.

The finding of Tamiflu resistance in one of the fatal infections raises additional concerns. The circumstances surround the resistance would be useful. The number of reports of H274Y have spiked in the past week, suggesting it too is efficiently spreading at a detectable level.

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 04:39 PM
reply to post by apacheman

This is part of why this virus is taken so seriously despite the fact is has not yet killed outside of small clusters (Mexico and Ukraine being exceptions). This virus is another of the "worst of the swine flu" variants and we've seen in 1918 just how dangerous this type of virus can be.

It's not what the virus has done that indicates concern, it's what the virus is doing and is expected to do.

They already have a vaccine candidate that has the D225G selection but I don't see how they could possibly produce it in quantity in time and thanks to the way they've handled this (and probably on purpose) no one will take it anyway.

I see some very dark days ahead, unfortunately.

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 04:45 PM
Well, this explains why there's so many bacterial pneumonias, although it's pretty much what you'd expect. The flu is the assault wave, the bacteria the followup on weakened defenses.

H1N1 linked to rise in bacterial pneumonia cases by Rita Uplend on November 26, 2009
ATLANTA, Ga. — The Centers for Disease Control issued a warning Nov. 25 that catching the H1N1 virus can put patients at risk, not only of developing complications, but also serious bacterial pneumonia.

Influenza infections can reduce the lining of the respiratory tract and set a person up for pneumonia. Common bacteria like pneumoccocus that live in the nose and throat can invade the lungs when there's a viral infection like influenza.

As H1N1 cases are rising, so are bacterial pneumonia cases, health officials are finding.

They're seeing an increase in flu complications leading to pneumonia. At the same time, the flu is at record levels because of the pandemic H1N1 virus.

mod edit, to decrease length of quoted material

[edit on Fri Nov 27 2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 05:42 PM
Greetings! Long time family friend dies in Cincinnati, Ohio of heart attack from blood clots in the lungs and had flu (probably swine flu) illness this week. This just happened four to five days ago. He was 58 and a healthy person otherwise. My husband went to a funeral also this past week in South Carolina where the man had had cancer then dies of a heart attack with blood clots in his lungs, he was african american. At the funeral home there were ten to twelve other bodies laid out. I don't know if that's a Southern tradition, apoverty tradion, or a swine flu tradition. That many bodies in one building all at once! I don't know what to think!!!!!!!!

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 05:43 PM
P.S. Can you get that flu twice?

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 07:39 PM
reply to post by ecoparity

Ecoparity, I must respectfully disagree with several of you statements in previous postings.

You posted:
“The fact that the 1918 virus was able to evolve on its own, in nature with no manipulation from humans means it can happen again and most likely, will.
That's what everyone is worried about. Even though we've been incredibly lucky so far this virus has all the tools it needs to do another 1918 run and wipe out 5 percent of the population again. There are various reasons why we think it hasn't yet and unfortunately all of those are just a matter of time”

While it may have initially evolved on its own, it seems to me H1N1 had a lot of recent human help in bringing back its most recent incarnations. It appears to me to have had direct and overt manipulation from humans, plain and simple. I also do not believe that we have been “incredibly lucky”.

From the CDC
“With the appearance of a new H2N2 pandemic strain in 1957 ("Asian flu"), the direct H1N1 viral descendants of the 1918 pandemic strain disappeared from human circulation entirely, although the related lineage persisted enzootically in pigs. But in 1977, human H1N1 viruses suddenly "reemerged" from a laboratory freezer (9). They continue to circulate endemically and epidemically.”

In my opinion those that made the choice to dig up this Frankenstein virus (Dr. Taubenberger and his Armed Forces Institute of Pathology team) may have risked more by providing some of the most dangerous genes for recombination even if accidentally.

You posted:
“Rather than giggling like village idiots and passing judgment on others perhaps we should all just be damn grateful if that comes to pass. We may deserve to be taught a lesson in humility by nature but I still hope it doesn't happen.”

I don’t feel so damn grateful that this appears to have been tracked down, recovered, manipulated and now some of these very dangerous genes now mysteriously reappearing. I feel pretty upset about it. Humanity doesn’t deserve to “be taught a lesson” That sentiment sounds suspiciously like the Prince Phillip reincarnation comment about wishing to come back as a deadly virus that wipes out most of humanity. If there are people who appear to have harvested this and then reengineered the re-release of these deadly genes then they are the ones who should be punished, not my children, not the rest of humanity.

You posted:
“The current H1N1 virus is not identical to the 1918 virus. They have similar compositions and effects but the current virus is not in any way a release of the 1918 samples.”

Of course they are not the same. But what is the same are some of the more dangerous genetic mutations that have not been seen since 1918 such as the 1918 RBD D225G, and Neuraminidase Q249 residue from both 1918 N1H1 and H5N1. What really scares me is if it gets more genetically similar to H5N1.

a good discussion on D225G and Q249:

You posted:
“The swine flu was not "lost to the World", if anything you could say just the samples of the 1918 version were buried away in the bodies of victims. After a number of close call pandemics involving swine flu the scientific community was very concerned that a repeat of 1918 was coming and felt it would be worthwhile to exhume samples for study.”

Of course it was not “lost to the world” but being buried in permafrost is not exactly in circulation either. In fact the conditions necessary to preserve it were very specific and unlikely.

“TAUBENBERGER: "I see no chance for the virus to survive under any natural conditions. Permafrost fluctuates between about -10 C and +4 C, which is a temperature zone ideally suited to kill influenza viruses. [To have survived the last eighty years intact] would have required a sample to be frozen continuously in liquid nitrogen, or be stored in a -70 C freezer.”

The bottom line for me is that the vaccine manufactures appeared to select for strains carrying D225G and their selection has been apparently successful. This makes it even more obvious that they are not our friends and the vaccine is not really intended to help humanity. There have been many toxic side effects of vaccination over the years and the current vaccines are no different.
Anyway, I am not intending to be disrespectful, just disagreeing with some of your statements and conclusions and expressing my thoughts on a few things. I do enjoy your postings however, and I am wishing you and all ATS’ers a very happy holiday season.

Just my onions anyway for whatever they are worth.
Kindest regards to all

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 08:15 PM
reply to post by ofthepeople

You have quite a few technical details incorrect, the worst of which is your statement that vaccine makers selected for the D225G strain. They did not or the current vaccine would not be a low reactor to that strain as reported by Dr Niman and posted here by me.

You're laying out technical details and then giving your opinion as to why you think I'm wrong. I assure you, I am completely in line with the very sources you're quoting, I think you might want to go back and re-read some of them again.

[edit on 27-11-2009 by ecoparity]

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 11:21 PM
reply to post by dreamseeker

Originally posted by dreamseeker
Is there anyone in Iowa who can give us a first hand account. Is it business as usual there or confusion/panic?

im from iowa and actually had family from polk county visit for the holiday.
i will say its business as usual and nobody is talking about the h1n1 let alone some insane ukraine strain.

i would bet the only people talking about this are the members of ats.
the local news hasnt even reported anything about an outbreak in des moines.

posted on Nov, 27 2009 @ 11:54 PM
reply to post by ecoparity

My statement that the vaccine makers selected for the D225G is completely consistent with Dr. Niman’s report in that they failed to include protection from it in the current vaccine. If they had included protection from it, which was reasonably foreseeable as it was present in the 1918 strain, in the current vaccine would have selected against it. By omitting the protection against, it the vaccine makers have in my opinion helped to select for the D225G, and therefore the vaccine is a failure against this lethal strain.

From Dr. Niman’s site:
“However, even though this change is drawing additional attention daily, WHO has taken a position that the vaccine failure against H1N1 with this D225G is not worthy of an announcement.
This mindset is significant cause for concern and is hazardous to the world's health.”


posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 12:34 AM
Let me state this even more plainly

The vaccine protects against the variety of H1N1 without the D225G mutation which is the type that stays in the upper respiratory system and similar to or even less lethal than seasonal influenza.

The vaccine fails to protect against the H1N1 influenza with the D225G mutation which was present in the 1918 strain which is the type that goes deep into the lungs, causing cytokine storm, alveolar hemorrhage and increased rates of death.

Great vaccine ?…. no epic fail.

Just my opinion, for what its worth.
Regards and good luck to all of us, we will need it.

posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 12:52 AM
reply to post by ofthepeople

And in case I did not make myself totally clear

This information means that the more lethal strain viral will have less competition from the less lethal strain. The vaccine has now given the more lethal strain a leapfrog advantage over the more benign strains throughout the world.

So yes, the vaccine will help to select the more virulent strain.

These strains were known, if this was incompetence, well then so be it. If it was intentional then it’s massive genocide.

Just my opinion, for what its worth.
Regards to all.

posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 01:39 AM
reply to post by ofthepeople

Like I said, technical details. When you state "vaccine makers select for the D225G strain" it means they picked the vaccine strain with that mutation in it. As you know, they did not so your statement is unclear.

You're posting links to Dr Niman's website and claiming to agree with it but disagree with me - I've taken a ton of crap for being in agreement with Dr Niman on this thread, I don't agree with him on everything but on the points you've raised there is no conflict.

I disagree with several of your statements about the vaccine makers doing things intentionally to make the situation worse and so on and given some of the positions you're taking I have no clue why you would post Dr Niman as a source - he is not taking the same position as you on any of the points you've raised.

I don't mean this as an insult but is English a second language for you?

posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 11:43 AM
reply to post by ofthepeople

Let's see if I have this right.

There are several different forms on H1N1 circulating at the moment, and the most virulent has the mutation that seems to be responsible for the "melting lungs" of severe cytokine storm being seen now in various countries and in 1918 in Spanish flu.

(By the way, does anyone know if it is this mutation causing Hyaline membrane disease too?)

The swine flu vaccine is not giving protection against the most virulent version of swine flu.

Does the vaccine protect against all the other forms of swine flu?
if so it obviously is going to encourage the proliferation of the virulent version in vaccinated countries by removing all opposition.
In which cast the posters accusing "anti-immunisation people" of spreading ideas which will lead to an international bloodbath are themselves setting up society for a virulent, untreatable plague.

In this case, for the sake of humanity's future, we should all refuse the vaccine.

Or does the vaccine only immunise against just one or a few versions of swine flu, leaving people still vulnerable to all the others?
It seems a silly idea to accept the ever present dangers of chemical interference with our bodies just to avoid an innocuous bug when we'll just end up catching another version of it anyway.

posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 12:05 PM

Originally posted by ofthepeople . . .
From Dr. Niman’s site:
“However, even though this change is drawing additional attention daily, WHO has taken a position that the vaccine failure against H1N1 with this D225G is not worthy of an announcement.
This mindset is significant cause for concern and is hazardous to the world's health.”

Understandable really. The WHO has a committee to make such decisions and that committee appears to be solely interested in protecting the profits of vaccine manufacturers.

The vaccine might be useless, dangerous or contribute to a world-wide pandemic of a killer virus, but it must be sold.

All hail the god of unrestricted capitalism!

posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 12:12 PM

Originally posted by frugal
P.S. Can you get that flu twice?

You certainly can. Catching swine flu multiple times was a common experience in Victoria, Australia, through April to August. We had the highest concentration of it in the world at one stage.
Official information from America states this has also been observed here.

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