personally i believe he is without a shadow of a doubt. makes a lot of sense.

some of you all perhaps dont believe that.


i like this little analogy on incarnation...

"I learned about incarnation when I kept a salt-water aquarium. Management of a marine aquarium, I discovered, is no easy task. I had to run a portable chemical laboratory to monitor the nitrate levels and the ammonia content .I pumped vitamins and antibiotics and sulfa drugs and enough enzymes to make a rock grow. I filtered the water through glass fibers and charcoal, and exposed it to ultraviolet light. You would think, in view of all the energy expanded on their behalf, that my fish would at least be grateful, Not so, Every time my shadow loomed above the tank they dove for cover into the nearest shell. They showed me one "emotion" only: fear. Although I opened the lid and dropped in food on a regular schedule, three times a day, they responded to each visit as a sure sign of my designs to torture them. I could not convince them of my true concern. To my fish I was deity. I was too large for them, my actions too incomprehensible. My acs of mercy they say as cruelty, my attempts at healing they viewed as destruction. To change their perceptions, I began to see, would require a form of incarnation. I would have to become a fish and "speak" to them in a language they could understand. A human being becoming a fish is nothing compared to God becoming a baby. And yet according to the Gospels that is what happened at Bethlehem. The God who created matter took shape within it, as an artist might become a spot on a painting or a playwright a character within his own play. God wrote a story, only using real characters, on the pages of real history. The word became flesh. "

----excerpt from "The Jesus I Never Knew" by Philip Yancey



now this is not the only reason i base my belief that God is Jesus in human flesh. Its just a cool analogy relating to it. I thought it would be neat to share such a thing on here. Let this open up some civil discussion about this subject. Ive seen this issue touched on recently in other posts but it has never become any deeper then two or three posts where responses are getting over looked. The can has been opened. Dont bust my chops for my belief man. Just be civil that all. A nice discussion is possible.

according to my confident about jesus biological history
he really true human in nature creation except it somesort we can say like cloning maybe cos jesus just came from single woman only,so in this case.i think
jesus just one of the prophet in jews sadness history

It would actually make more sense for Jesus to be a god rather than a man, if you listen to his sayings.

XAOS

first define your god...

if you believe God encompasses all creation, is beyond human comprehension and has no physical form, being possibly comprised of pure energy - then no jesus was not THE god

if however you believe a part of that energy can manifest itself in certain individuals who because of their own make-up, personality and upbringing are able to focus more on that higher part of themselves and listen to what is says - then yes jesus was A god

My personal opinion on this (and its just an opinion) was that jesus was not THE god but still one of the greatest human figures in our past.

I do wonder whether in a different time and a different place, Ghandi, Martin Luther King and their ilk would also have been considered gods?

Maybe the question is, "why didn't Jesus just proclaim himself to be God?"

If Jesus was God, he sure put on a good show, being tortured before he was killed, then resurrected. Also, that almost gives the thought that, if Jesus was God, he sure was saddistic. After all, why would God have to die for your sins if it is His choice afterall? Did Jesus not die so that God would forgive your sins. God committing suicide for you is also a negative thought.

All in all, I agree that your God needs some sort of definition, otherwise who can say whether your claims are right or wrong.

Jesus was NOT God... listen to yourself, wake up!

God is not one of us! We can't imagine God for what he is.. we can come up with all these "cool" images of what we might find God to be, whether a human figure or something so gigantic but we will never know God in his true essence and power

God is not one of us... God said it himself he felt sorry for creating this earth, so why would he walk upon it..

think, is this earth worthy of God walking upon it? NO.

look, if God was Jesus, would God/Jesus allow christianity to be the religion it is today?? christianity couldnt even last 300 years... the first 300 years of christianity was nice... early christians REJECTED the idea of a TRINITY... after the first 300 years , constantine accepted christianity, mixed it into his politics, added his own pagan beliefs and boom, christianity is the christianity we have today, CORRUPT AND WRONG.

God was here way before christianity came along, God was here way before judaism came belong.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Jesus was NOT God... listen to yourself, wake up!

please keep it civil man. be cool.


ill respond to your post accordingly soon.. just got to make sure we are still on a civil playing field. no need to get offensive.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Jesus was NOT God... listen to yourself, wake up!

God is not one of us! We can't imagine God for what he is.. we can come up with all these "cool" images of what we might find God to be, whether a human figure or something so gigantic but we will never know God in his true essence and power

God is not one of us... God said it himself he felt sorry for creating this earth, so why would he walk upon it..

think, is this earth worthy of God walking upon it? NO.

look, if God was Jesus, would God/Jesus allow christianity to be the religion it is today?? christianity couldnt even last 300 years... the first 300 years of christianity was nice... early christians REJECTED the idea of a TRINITY... after the first 300 years , constantine accepted christianity, mixed it into his politics, added his own pagan beliefs and boom, christianity is the christianity we have today, CORRUPT AND WRONG.

God was here way before christianity came along, God was here way before judaism came belong.

okay thanks for the response.

ill counter respond by first asking you how you define or prove the "trinity" as not valid in any way.

because what this comes down to is the trinity.


prove it to me if you can.
if you cant then just going on about your belief tht the trinty is not real is fine i guess but keep it civil.

prove it to me if you can.
if you cant then just going on about your belief tht the trinty is not real is fine i guess but keep it civil.

dude, you have no idea what your talking about.


I can disprove the trinity with the bible!

Judaism, period. should i say more?

"Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God is ONE"- Moses

not two, not three, ONE

God is the almighty , all powerful

why would God be credited these attributes if he needs help with two others?

"Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God is ONE"

Originally posted by Illmatic67

prove it to me if you can.
if you cant then just going on about your belief tht the trinty is not real is fine i guess but keep it civil.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
dude, you have no idea what your talking about.

hey umm CIVIL. dont attack man. keep it down please. if you cant keep your rude comments down just say so and the can will be open. otherwise
its best to keep it civil. now... how do i not know what i am talking about.
i know i am talking about the trinity. i know what the trinity is. so again how do i not know what i am talking about? seems like you are just assuming here.... thinking im a pimple headed punk who just heard of the trinity.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
I can disprove the trinity with the bible!

Judaism, period. should i say more?

"Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God is ONE"- Moses

not two, not three, ONE

God is the almighty , all powerful

why would God be credited these attributes if he needs help with two others?

"Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God is ONE"

thats not proof.... if moses said ""Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God is ONE not three in ONE".... then okay... you argument is solid. but its not like that. neither does it say... God is three in one... direclty or specifically like that. so... what we have left is an understanding of the bible and making conclusions based on such.

why would God be limited to not being able to be a man too? couldnt God do that? He is outside of time and the laws of this world. So why cant he be 3 at the same time? After all... my uncle is a brother a father and a son.
time consites of past, present and future... but all one.
what natural resource can be in liquid form, a solid state and a vapor... but still the same resource or chemical?

think about it.

cant God reach down and become one of us... to teach us on our level... to show us the truth on our level... to speak our language... to go through the same crap we go through and some in order to show us that God understands our issues better then we do and can solve, help them? why must we think that God cant do that? or is limited to not doing that? it makes perfect sense to me. why would the trinity be too impossible a funcion for a great majestic God?

also.. do you beleive in the old testament? everything in it? or just some things? if some what have you choosen to believe in and not to believe in?
just curious about your basis here. i dont want someone spitting out old testament stuff ... and here or she doesnt believe in the old testament or doesnt believe in some things in there. just odd and hypocritical if so. if not.. then how do you justify it?



looking at your comments and your avatar.. it seems like you might be a black muslim.. if not then please tell us what religion you subscribe to.

rock on!

Illmatic are you kidding me?

"" the early christians did not believe in the trinity ""

contradiction.

why?

well first, to be a christian you (must) believe jesus is GOD, so therefore the early christians believe in the (trinity).

also go read up on history, the church of the apostles believed in the (trinity), father, son, holyspirit.

you keep qouting..

"" hear o israel our god is one ""

so is our god. jesus is not the father is not the holy spirit. they all are one in the same.

jesus said..

"" baptise them in the name of the father son, holyspirit ""

"" david said, the lord said to my lord, sit at my right hand until thy enemies are placed under thy feet ""

"" Let (us) make man in (our) image and likeness ""


God can come as a man, he did, he was prophecied, he replaced the old covenant and old sacrafice, he
was god in human form, he suffered for the sins of his people, he offered up the one last final and clean
oblation for our sins..

and the old law was fullfilled.

peace.

Hey, this isn't truely related...but, what if (if god exists) when Jesus said he was the son of god, he meant that he was created by god.

According to most religions, everything is created by god. So that doesn't make him special. It would make him, as someone said before, like Ghandi, or Mother Teresa.

Just a musing I had...

a few ideas for you...

at that time in israel there were a lot of tribes all believing in different gods. The tribe that held Yahweh as their own god managed to come to power over the others. So maybe the one god comment was in fact a way of saying 'there's not lots of gods, because we're now in power and we say so. There's only one god and it's the one we believe in'. Perhaps it was more of a political statement than a divine one.

As for the trinity - the father, the son and the holy ghost doesn't quite make sense. I'm not denying that one deity can have three faces - the celtic goddess does this in terms most of us can relate to in the virgin, mother and crone aspects.

I read something in Lomas & Knight's book The Hiram Key quite interesting however - that in egypt there was an idea of two pillars representing the king and priest, or strength and stability, topped with a heavenly lintel forming the result of shalom (nearest translation is peace, but it encompasses far more than that). So maybe the trinity was an attempt to include those ideas in a new emerging religion, but it lost something in the translation. I can see the father representing the king, as he is effectively a father to his country, and the holy ghost being the heavenly lintel that combines the two earthly pillars into something greater than the sum of parts. Which leaves the priest playing the part of the son, and priests are commonly known as son's of god.

So since jesus was both a kingly figure and a priestly figure, technically he could I suppose represent both the father and the son, with with the holy ghost forming the link between the two aspects

[Edited on 25-2-2003 by arc]

how do you explain the numerous events in the gospel that go something like this:

When Jesus is on the cross... he says "God, why have you forsaken me?" If he's God, why is he talking to himself?

the transfiguration.. if Jesus is God.. who said "this is my son and I love him so" who said that from the heavens? the easter bunny?

why does Jesus go off by himself before he's captured and pray to God ? is he talking to himself?? what's wrong with Jesus? whos' he talking to if he's God??

now i got a couple of questions to ask.

Where, specifically, in the Gospel does Jesus mention the Trinity?


why does Jesus in the Lord's prayer address the Lord as "Father" and then refer to the Father's children throughout as "Us" and "We," instead of separating himself from the rest of the children of God, as the Trinity would seem to demand?


if redemption through the blood of Christ, that one member of the trinity, is all that is necessary for salvation, how are we to explain the many, many occasions in the Gospel that Jesus details the necessity of submitting directly to the One God (islam)-- without ever mentioning the role of his (Jesus')redeeming blood?

Did Jesus pray to Himself ? No, not when we understand that Jesus was both God and man. In His deity Jesus did not pray...for God does not need to pray to anyone. As a man...Jesus prayed to God...not to his humanity. He did not pray to Himself as humanity, but to the one true God, to the same God who dwelled in His humanity and who also inhabits the universe. Does Jesus pray now since his exaltation ? The answer is no. He prayed in the days of His flesh (Hebrews 5:7).

On the Trinity itself...basically, the universe consists of three elements...time, space, matter. Each of these is comprised of three components... past, present, future. As the Trinity doctrine maintains, each of the persons of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is distinct, yet they are all each, by nature God. With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three times, but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time With space, height is distinct from width, which is distinct from depth, which is distinct from height. yet, they are not three spaces, but one. That is, they all share the same nature... space. With matter, solid is not the same as liquid, which is not the same as gas, which is not the same as solid. Yet, they are not three matters... but one. that is...they all share the same nature...matter. Note that there are three sets of threes. In other words... there is a trinity of trinities. If we were to look at the universe and notice these qualities within it... is it fair to say that these are the fingerprints of God upon His creation? I think so. Not only is this simply an observation, but it is also a good source for an analogy of the Trinity.

Did Jesus pray to Himself ? No, not when we understand that Jesus was both God and man. In His deity Jesus did not pray...for God does not need to pray to anyone. As a man...Jesus prayed to God...not to his humanity. He did not pray to Himself as humanity, but to the one true God, to the same God who dwelled in His humanity and who also inhabits the universe. Does Jesus pray now since his exaltation ? The answer is no. He prayed in the days of His flesh (Hebrews 5:7).

ok, so now jesus and God are the same man but in heaven they're different? that's a new one I never heard that one before.. oh yea... evidence???

and since when does time, matter , and energy= father, son, spirit.. that's a new one too, i never heard that one.

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Did Jesus pray to Himself ? No, not when we understand that Jesus was both God and man. In His deity Jesus did not pray...for God does not need to pray to anyone. As a man...Jesus prayed to God...not to his humanity. He did not pray to Himself as humanity, but to the one true God, to the same God who dwelled in His humanity and who also inhabits the universe. Does Jesus pray now since his exaltation ? The answer is no. He prayed in the days of His flesh (Hebrews 5:7).

ok, so now jesus and God are the same man but in heaven they're different? that's a new one I never heard that one before.. oh yea... evidence???

and since when does time, matter , and energy= father, son, spirit.. that's a new one too, i never heard that one.

Jesus is both God and human. When Jesus was on this earth his "human" side prayed to his "God" side. There had to be a seperation. I think you may be confusing the response. What I am saying is simple to understand. Dont confuse yourself. If you dont agree with it fine... just dont make up things that I am not saying.
I never alluded to time, matter and space equaling father , son , spirit. You are putting words in my mouth again perhaps. Assuming I was saying things etc. What I am giving you is a simple literary technique called an "analogy" to help you understand the complexity of the trinity. Thats all.





[Edited on 26-2-2003 by krossfyter]

he was not God...he was political idealist

Originally posted by the pirate
he was not God...he was political idealist

yes, coupled with amazing spiritual ideals