Why would one even ask such a question? The answer is simple; to change what has already been established. We must never stop asking questions that define us. I do not think humanity is at the peak of itself. I feel there is much we can do in one life time. But one must consider personnal accomplishement and be willing to give having to receive nothing in return.

Thing is, for this system to work for everyone, there would need to be more money than is currently available. The system depends on using people with lesser degree of wealth to work for pennies. And this in return, makes people very poor. The working class anyways.

Think about it for a second, you need to buy cheap materials, and cheap workforce, and exploit both, then sell to somebody with a profit (400% the cost to you) then, do it all over again. And that is how our economy works. Cheating everybody in the process. The guy at the top makes money out of slaves.

Of course we need workforce and of course we need people to go and make products. This is very much clear. But at what cost to everyone in this society. Are we so closed minded, that we would forget all of those people that have been working all their lifes making products in factories? How about those in there that didn’t get a chance to get ahead in life. Do we just let them be nothing, and take the chance of having brilliant discoveries, from brilliant minds lost forever?

How about the rest of our brothers in other countries, that have nothing to eat, have been taken away from the right to live an accomplished life? What about those people? And those working in cotton extraction for your cool shirts and tank tops…. Yeah it’s easy to say things life : well life just isn’t fair…. Or : You can’t help everybody….. But that is wrong…..

Think about it for a second, if everyone starts making a small difference a day at a time, the repercussions would be so good that there would be no need for governing parties. Discoveries on alternative fuel sources, would most likely be permitted as those pesky empires of oil would no longer dominate the market. Their money would be useless. Their power reduced to the same thing as joe shmoe. And that dear sirs and mam’s is what is fair. No one person should have so much power as to be able to influence every other part of a system.

On the other hand we all know that life is not that simple. The only thing holding every country together is money. The promise of it, and the barter of it. So how do we change that and make the world better? Please suggest maybe the solution lies here in ATS? Maybe we are the solution?

Money is the life blood of any economy. By it people strive to improve upon their own personal lot in life. Through it nations attain wealth status. Money is what determines personal class status. Dignity, and respect. Those who work hard for it deserve the fruit of their labor. Those who don't, don't get to eat of the same fruit. This is the law of life on this planet where every human rolls out of the womb with potential and ability such as they have. But one can only succeed by standing on their own two feet and going forward.

Now, you may say Aha... the poor nations have no chance, but this is not true. They only need to do as other nation do. Take the lesson of China that finally adopted some capitalist ideas and their economy is robust and alive. Yet here in the US we adopt marxist ideas that stagnate the economy and we suffer. All this is our lot in life. Don't blame money for the world's ills, blame lack of determination and laziness. Blame the victim mentality that demands that I share mine with you just to make it even. Also blame greed, for it is the duty of man to help the less fortunate, not to make it even but to make the society one that is compassionate by human standards of love and kindness.

The elimination of money would only kill all progress and human development.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Fromabove]

But what about the monopoly it creates. Think about it, money makes it impossible for electric motors to ever come out. We all know the oil companies have bought these plans. And they will never let it out, it would criple their business. So the change from fossil fuel to other sources of energy will never happen.

No I dont think that those that have less money have less work. Between you and me, an office job, is way easier then a soldiers job. But even then the soldier gets less pay then a buiseness type salesman, or computer technician. So the argument makes no sense.

And there are all of these people that do not have jobs, that desperately try and never get ahead, but because of harsh criteria, will never get out of the same routine of worthless jobs.

Another example, compare a working employee in mcdonnalds... and compare it with a deskjob. Who do you think works the most? isnt that like obvious? The Mcdonnald employee will work longer and harder for less pay... with more rigourous limits....

Is this what you call having just what you deserve?

Originally posted by KpxMarMoTT
But what about the monopoly it creates. Think about it, money makes it impossible for electric motors to ever come out. We all know the oil companies have bought these plans. And they will never let it out, it would criple their business. So the change from fossil fuel to other sources of energy will never happen.

No I dont think that those that have less money have less work. Between you and me, an office job, is way easier then a soldiers job. But even then the soldier gets less pay then a buiseness type salesman, or computer technician. So the argument makes no sense.

And there are all of these people that do not have jobs, that desperately try and never get ahead, but because of harsh criteria, will never get out of the same routine of worthless jobs.

Another example, compare a working employee in mcdonnalds... and compare it with a deskjob. Who do you think works the most? isnt that like obvious? The Mcdonnald employee will work longer and harder for less pay... with more rigourous limits....

Is this what you call having just what you deserve?

I can give you my example. I grew up and after graduating from High School, I started working in restaurants and then factories. I made crap for pay and got treated even worse. I envied those that had money saying how unfair it was for me to suffer such humiliation and that made me bitter. I began to hate those that had more than me. I was born into a poor family that had nothing. A family that was always just a foot ahead of bill collectors and angry landlords. At school I was picked on for being so poor as I never had all the good clothes to wear or any of the best jackets. My shoes really did have holes in them. I wore sneakers in the winter.

My life of being a lonely factory worker, a life that sucked went on. I joined a union, tried the union thing to no avail. Life was hopeless. Then one day I heard somewhere that everyone is born with the ability to achieve as much as they desired. I said to myself, why don't I see what I can do for others for money and then do it.

I did so. I went self employed. I went from making 10K a year to making 140,000 a year and growing. I also have a cache of businesses as well and among them one that shows others to do as I have done. But I am not greedy either as I remember from where I came and so I give back some to others without charge or obligation both in my church and my community.

The very best advice that I can ever give to anyone is this. Find what it is you can do best and do that trade or service for others for money. It will send you on the way to personal independence.

If you think about it, money kind of is our human nature, greed. we can rise above this though.

Originally posted by Fromabove

The elimination of money would only kill all progress and human development.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Fromabove]

The above statement is nonsensical. Money breeds secrecy, which by its very nature leads to fear, jealousy and greed. In an ideal world we would pool the resources we have, monitor and manage them to ensure equality and fairness regardless of race, creed, colour or geographic locale.

When you roll out of that womb, thats the very first, but also the very last time you are truly free. After this money enslaves you. You are restricted by the amount you have, and continually shown what others with more than you have. The jealousy of this can often lead to violent crime, which in a world with no money, would not occur in such numbers as it does today.

Perhaps your parents are poor and this kid with all the potential in the world gets dropped into a lower standard state school, falls into a bad crowd and the potential dies.

In a cooperative society, where we all work to make life better, not for ourselves, but for everyone, what makes you think passion for innovation and novelty will die? I feel quite the opposite. If I knew I was working on a project which would benefit not only myself, but the entire population of the planet, I'd take a great deal more pride in my work. Even when the benefit is scaled down to a community level, I'd still take more pride. I can't remember if anything I've ever done has ever benefited a whole community, I doubt it, but even the simplest of work such as farming in a resource based economy becomes so much more rewarding and satisfying.

Money is used as a controlling measure, a way to horde property and priviledges for the benefit of the few at the expense of the great many. This is only obvious admittedly when you step outside of the economic bubble we've been brought up in, and when you can realise that money really does grow on trees... after all its simply paper and ink which in a world full of starvation, leaves alot to be desired and will probably only turn your tongue green if you ate it! Truly worthless, to anyone, anywhere.

I wish there was a way to live without money. Money = misery. For me the less money I have the more others want my money. The more money I have the more others want my money as well.
No matter what I do I have to slave for this money; as we all do just to live poor not comfortable.
Money keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. Either we need a society where money is only a means and is not a god. Where we are eoncouraged to work not for money but for the good of society and improving ourselves. Where housing, utlities etc is based on our income and not the other way around. Where credit does NOT exist.
If we could get rid of the credit system we could solve half our problems. The problem is that people tend to live beyond their means with credit.
NO ONE should pay over 30% to housing expenses ever! I pay 70% of my income to rent and 15% to electricity! This is what is keeping me poor; if housing where only 30% and electricity only 5% then I would live very comfortably.
Of course in our soceity anyone who does not value the almighty dollar is supposed to be poor. The poor is never meant to live comfortably. I feel the more i need money; the more I strive to obtain; the more I want it; the more stressed I become thus taking away from my quality of life.
If you don't have a lot of money in this sick society than you have to have a lowered quality of life.
Money is just another way to control the masses! I hate it.

Originally posted by Pr0t0

Originally posted by Fromabove

The elimination of money would only kill all progress and human development.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Fromabove]

The above statement is nonsensical. Money breeds secrecy, which by its very nature leads to fear, jealousy and greed. In an ideal world we would pool the resources we have, monitor and manage them to ensure equality and fairness regardless of race, creed, colour or geographic locale.

When you roll out of that womb, thats the very first, but also the very last time you are truly free. After this money enslaves you. You are restricted by the amount you have, and continually shown what others with more than you have. The jealousy of this can often lead to violent crime, which in a world with no money, would not occur in such numbers as it does today.

Perhaps your parents are poor and this kid with all the potential in the world gets dropped into a lower standard state school, falls into a bad crowd and the potential dies.

In a cooperative society, where we all work to make life better, not for ourselves, but for everyone, what makes you think passion for innovation and novelty will die? I feel quite the opposite. If I knew I was working on a project which would benefit not only myself, but the entire population of the planet, I'd take a great deal more pride in my work. Even when the benefit is scaled down to a community level, I'd still take more pride. I can't remember if anything I've ever done has ever benefited a whole community, I doubt it, but even the simplest of work such as farming in a resource based economy becomes so much more rewarding and satisfying.

Money is used as a controlling measure, a way to horde property and priviledges for the benefit of the few at the expense of the great many. This is only obvious admittedly when you step outside of the economic bubble we've been brought up in, and when you can realise that money really does grow on trees... after all its simply paper and ink which in a world full of starvation, leaves alot to be desired and will probably only turn your tongue green if you ate it! Truly worthless, to anyone, anywhere.

In theory, in the utopian world that all sounds nice, but like marxism it is doomed to fail. True freedom is measured in one's ability to progress to his maximum potential. Money is only a medium by which work and product is exchanged. The person is the factor that tells the story of the nature of the man. As long as we hate the rich and envy that which they have we will become the victim of our own undoing.

When we roll out of the womb, we are not free but utterly dependent, but we are at least equal. The objective is to rise to independence and to be all you can be. The collective never works no matter how many nations have tried it. The all for one and one for all thing is an illusion at best.

Let me ask those that are mad at the rich and their status in life. Lets put off blaming others for our plight just for a moment and ponder with me here.

Tell me something. One thing that you can do that others would pay for you to do..? I know of a man who decided one day to lend himself to picking up animal waste for disposal in peoples yards. In one year he earned 150K for the first time in his life. Granted, it wasn't the best of jobs, but he has a house, a few cars, and no bills.

What can YOU do for money that others would pay for..?

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Fromabove]

Originally posted by Fromabove
I also have a cache of businesses as well and among them one that shows others to do as I have done. But I am not greedy either as I remember from where I came and so I give back some to others without charge or obligation both in my church and my community.

The very best advice that I can ever give to anyone is this. Find what it is you can do best and do that trade or service for others for money. It will send you on the way to personal independence.

You posted as I was typing. In a roundabout way you're actually perpetuating greed by saying "Here's what I did, because I was in the right place at the right time and had the right contacts to hand, and if you don't have that I'll show you a bit about what I do and you do the rest yourself"... so the person leaves and finds they're in the middle of a recession... and they try to make contacts but nobody wants to spend their money on an untested freelancer who has no previous accounts and no testimonials.

The banks won't loan them any cash to buy more marketing to compete with your marketing which is backed by your Limited company, so really they're f***ed from day one... all because you told them they could do it... and now they're jobless, angry, greedy and jealous...

OK, so that's merely a scenario, and I'm not suggesting for one minute that's how one of your training sessions go, but can you for a second step outside of your role and into the shoes of the person above? Because that HAS happened to at least someone, somewhere... chances are this person could be 100x better at their skill/trade than even you are, but without a certain element of luck, and no the "man makes his own luck" line is BS, they cannot move forward to become financially successful.

Originally posted by gandhi
If you think about it, money kind of is our human nature, greed. we can rise above this though.

I don't believe greed is Human nature. Greed is more a product of the economic environment we're nurtured in. Animals aren't greedy by nature. They are instinctive and opportunistic, sure, but greed isn't a factor IMO. Once a lion is full he doesn't wolf down the rest of the corpse. He moves it to a safe place and saves it for later. We're just animals who've been programmed to lust after our neighbours dinner. This sounds lazier to me than a resource focussed world.

Conceptually, it is possible for our civilization to exist without money. There is a side effect to the absence of a monetary system however. This side effect is the reason why it's practically and realistically impossible.

The side effect? One word. Equality.

Without money to segregate society, all men are equal. Those who currently enjoy the power and influence provided by uncommon wealth, will never give up that power and influence for the sake of others.

Greed is a human condition, and the source of our troubles. All of them. Unfortunately, there's no vaccine, no inpatient treatment, no 12 step programs, and no magic pill to nullify it's effects. In today's society, the measure of a man is the weight of his wallet, and there will be no change from within.

There was once a system of trade called "barter". Where if you have 1lb of beef, and I have a 1lb of chicken we traded pound for pound.

It wasn't the greatest concept but is our current one?

Say you didn't need 1 lb of chicken, and that was all I had. I still need your lbog beef, yet can't find a mutual trade commodity to settle an agreement.

Maybe a lb of silver or gold would be enough. Every one can trade precius metals, for jewelry etc.

Now the regulation of weights and standards comes in. Starting to see the cause and effects?

We need to go back to a barter system that encorporates trade goods and trade services. Say I provide hunting and tracking skills, your beef cattle keeps getting stolen.

I can find and stop the cattle thieves, but I only provide a service, one that can prevent your losses. In return for my service you pay in beef, chiicken or what ever it is you provide.

Not a perfect monetary system, but a more solid pound for pound one in my opinion.

Barter was fine until greedy bankers and financiers tricked people with their fancy currency and conversion rates...

I believe that money now simbolises power, and the control unto others. Of course if you had nothing and youve built something then congrats to you !

Of course not everyone has the same talent to go it alone. And without a net to hold your course while you risk big, there are big chances that you will fall....

Money should not be the only reason why we work. It should be to better ourselves, to fullfill ourselves. But with money you don't need any of that, you don't even need to work all that hard. You just have someone else do the hole thing for you....

And while this money is the real reason behind our current lack of advancement in aeoronautical and road vehicules, it is also undoing the planet we live on. Look at those pictures that were shot from the south pole and north pole. We are looking at major damage for our lack of believing a better system exist. We destroy everything we have to be rich....

No we dont need money, its a belief system. But try saying that to greedy humans.

I am fairly wealthy, so im not just saying this cause im broke. We dont need it, if there was no money, you would see how the worlds problems would quickly evaporate.

If everyone gives there contribution to society then we could substain without money. Altough everyone would have to muck in.

And remember when the money is gone, the evil is gone, ok, which means we'd have all that technology they supress from us, so dont just view this using todays techs that we are privy. My personal belief is, if we had the technology they are surpressing from us now at this moment, the world would be a great place.

I have always believed that there is another way to live. I have been trying to figure this out both philosophically and logically since I can remember. I was very young when I started having visions about a better world.

At this point I have concluded that we can survive without money (as money is basically imaginary), but not without the barter system. Bartering is certainly an asset in our lives...one service in return for another. I like the barter system because it allows for discrepencies and exceptions. I suppose it's down to the person - if there is someone who is in need, and someone else who is willing to give more than they will receive (as a community does, generally speaking), then things would work out quite nicely.

Our current society cannot function without money. Our economy is based off of it. If we ever decided to change the way we do business, then I imagine it would have to be done slowly, carefully and delicately. To simply revert back to the basic barter system would be social and economic suicide. A gradual transition would definitely be best, but we would need the interest of the masses in order to even hope to start making changes to the system. Also, those in power are making money easily and have no interest in changing the way things are (from what I can see and imagine); and that's not even the biggest obstacle; that one would be the apathy of the majority of the population. If they don't want change, or rather, don't see a need for change...we essentially won't see it. This is one case where we need demand before anyone will supply.

One big thing is spreading awareness...the knowledge that we need a new way of doing things is the key to begining a revolution of the way we work and trade. Spreading the word would also prove difficult without the agreement of those in power. It's really down to us to initiate it, unfortunately. I have a feeling if we were to wait, that we would be doing so in vain.

...After I typed all of that, I went back to read the thread and I guess we are digging this topic up...oh well! Here are my two cents!