[Cures DB2]: Flu Immunity and Cytokine Prevention

Scarcer, that was a fascinating article.

One thing here jumped out at me.

"While in the cell determinant state, there appears to be an affinity for lipid substances"

*emphasis mine

Considering the current fad for Low Fat diets and the general demonizing of eating fats.....could this be what the problem is with those who have low PMG??

Quiet possible. Few of us have chronic muscle problems, but most of our issues have to do with "old age" in tissues we rarely eat of animals, giving us a very limited source of these PMG.

That's what I get out of it. But I could be way off from the truth.

I'll be going to a naturopath soon for a health reflection check up. When I go I'll have to ask about these supplements.

Do anyone have connections or a way to contact someone in the field that may have more knowledge on protomorphogen, and if increasing lung protomorphogen might decreasee harm in the case of a cytokine storm?

Same with anti-histamines in the case of cytokines.

Sometimes research on the net alone isn't enough. A lot hasn't been discussed yet.


[edit on 24-11-2009 by Scarcer]

This probably won't be a popular suggestion but I reccomend strongly obtaining a supply of Relenza. It's an anti-viral medication like Tamiflu except it comes in the form of an inhaler. No flu virus to date has shown resistance to Relenza and the current H1N1 has had a few instances of Tamiflu resistance.

Here's why I would go with the anti viral -
The cytokine storm mechanism did kill patients and lead to secondary pneumonia in the low viral load cases but the more recent cases are of a higher viral load and it seems like the mutation from Ukraine is established World-wide now.

This mutation causes the virus to bind to cells deep in the lungs. Rather than just the cytokine storm reaction killing the patient what they are seeing now is the mechanism of the virus reproducing rapidly in those lung cells ends up destroying the cells and damaging the lungs so badly that the patient suffocates rapidly.

Stopping the cytokine storm will not be enough now, I'm afraid. We need to avoid infection completely or be able to keep the virus from establishing a high enough load in the body that the lung damage takes place.

If we choose not to take the vaccine I'm afraid only Relenza and maybe Tamiflu will save those who are infected with more than a low viral load dose of the flu.

reply to post by ecoparity


Thankyou a ton ecoparity. Do you have any sources we can stick our eyes at that talk about the rapid multiplication?

And are you saying the hemorrhaging is from rapid multiplying alone or from a combination of multiplication and cytokine reaction?

I'm also looking into Relenza right now, but is there an advantage to Relenza rather than inhaling say Garlic fumes for example? Since Relenza requires prescription.

[edit on 25-11-2009 by Scarcer]

reply to post by Scarcer


The replication is basic virus mechanics. The virus attaches to a cell in the host, the receptors on the virus mutating is what changes the type of cell it can bind itself to - this is why dog flu won't usually infect humans and vice versa - it doesn't have the correct receptors for the cells in a human upper respiratory tract.

Once the virus binds itself to a cell it "takes over" and uses the cell to create copies of itself. These copies will burst out of the cell en masse until it's destroyed. The copies will then attach to other cells and repeat the process.

I read where a Dr used the term "parasite" in a discussion about the swine flu which upset some people who took it in all sorts of weird ways. He was merely referencing the way the virus behaves which could be compared to a parasite if you think about it.

This recent mutation in the swine flu was a shift in the receptors on the virus. This changed the type of cells the virus can attach to. (It gave the virus improved capabilities in addition to what it already had, it didn't trade one type of connection for another).

The virus is better able to attach itself to cells in the lungs of humans now which is a "better" place for the virus to replicate in. It's warmer, more protected, richer in oxygen and blood and so on.

This is bad in a number of ways as it makes the virus concentrate deep in the lungs and it tends to clear out of the nasal cavity quickly now. This makes the nasal swab tests which were already less than "accurate" come up negative even more often. This is one of the reasons for all the confusion in Ukraine, the swab tests they had were the type that were already wrong more than half the time and now the virus wasn't even in the nasal cavity in a concentration high enough to trigger a positive result.

So, with or without a bad cytokine storm reaction the virus is replicating in the deepest part of the lungs, destroying the cells that make up the lining of them which leads to severe bleeding as well as destroying the ability of that lining to transfer oxygen to the blood stream. The coroner in Ukraine said most of the patients died of massive shock or cardiac arrest from lack of oxygen.

It's just doing what the cytokine storm was doing, the cytokine storm was just the hosts own immune system T-cells killing the cells that line the lungs in order to kill the virus. This virus replicates quickly and goes for the lungs, always has. It's just doing it faster and more intensely now.

The anti virals do work though. In the bad cases where resistance to Tamiflu wasn't an issue they managed to save quite a few people. The key is to get them started quickly, ideally the first day within a few hours if possible.

If you can slow down and stop the virus from replicating you head off the cytokine storm as well as the replication damage. Other than the vaccine it really is the best chance you have for surviving. I know it's a prescription item but most countries have stockpiles of it and will even give it to you free if you get it from a hospital.

I have family connections so I'm using them to make sure we have plenty of it on hand ahead of time. In most cases, if you call you Dr tomorrow and tell him or her you have flu symptoms they will call you in a Rx for it and won't even have you come in. Just fill the script and tell them you got over it a day later and "oops, must have been food poisoning". At least you'll have it around and ready if you need it.

I'll see about getting a virologist to back up the above description and I've passed on some of your previously posted questions for comment.

[edit on 25-11-2009 by ecoparity]

Alright then. Till I have it as fact that its the virus alone rather than cytokine storm, I'll sit on the fence and keep either one on mind.

I'm guessing the virus immunity list I've assembled would be even more important if this really is the case.

reply to post by kenochs


Sometimes, when one is about to fall, to maintain balance they must perform more drastic recalibration that is outside the normal range of movement.

Your mind is a tool that is naturally at your disposal. Its use is totally natural.

reply to post by kenochs


Sometimes, when one is about to fall, to maintain balance they must perform more drastic recalibration that is outside the normal range of movement.

Your mind is a tool that is naturally at your disposal. Its use is totally natural.

Its the inflammation that gets you.

Truly, if you can mediate runaway cytokines then good for you.

But you need to deal with the inflammation. That's why I suggest ridiculous amounts of inflammation enzymes. Serrapeptase works very well IMNSHO. Large doses are cost prohibitive as a long term option, but if you are having an acute reaction it would be worthwhile.

On the plus side, it'll also chelate out arterial plaque. The sort of side effect that one likes.

As an aside. The one link to avianflutalk should also be noted that it mentions they types of macrophages that can be problematic. Two of them are released by fat cells. One of the predisposing factors in fatal swine flu has been being obese. More fat cells.

I think that there might be some worth in looking at types of lymphocytes and macrophages that are and are not causing the problems seen.

What if you could increase the lymphocytes and macrophages that are NOT causing the problem. Your body has limited resources in the fight, if you encouraged it to increase production of something else that used the same precursors you could perhaps stop the lethal reaction.

I posted about this substance in another thread a while back and I can't find it now. I think it's called "BTPT" or something close to it. In studies they found it destroyed flu virus cells and other pathogens almost instantly without any harm to the host.

It's a completely inert substance, you can eat it, rub it all over yourself, stuff it in dark places - it's perfectly safe but they haven't released it as a medication yet.

I've been wondering if it's available in some form of homeopathic medicine, the chemical formula for it was very simple, something even a basic chemist could make.

The animal tests were very interesting, the researcher made a liquid form of it and sprayed it into the nasal cavity of infected ferrets, I believe and they were all cured rapidly, this chemical just took off the outer layer of the flu virus cells and killed them instantly.

I'll keep looking for it but if anyone knows what I'm "talking" about please feel free to chime in.

[edit on 25-11-2009 by ecoparity]

Well I looked around, couldn't find much.

But I got to ask. In the case of massive inflammation, either rappid virus multiplying in the lungs or a cytokine storm.

Would it be more logical to let the defensive symptoms do their job, or try and suppress the inflammation with medicines such as aspirin or gelsemium?

For supplementation right now to minimize virus growth, I can't think of anything much better than:

Vitamin D
Garlic
Grape Seed Extract.

We can also take other supplements to directly aid the immune system, but I think it's important to have substances that can prevent virus multiplication by their own presence in the body.

Just thinkin here

Would it also be helpful to take the nutrients necessary to increase the division of cells in the lungs? Generally what fibers/proteins are required for the walls and cells of the lungs?

Article on Lung Health

[edit on 25-11-2009 by Scarcer]

We will have to look honestly at the current situation, the symptoms and possible ways how to beat the virus.
The international medical community is very adamant to release details about the flu symptoms, due to reasons which might become obvious. But for an effective fight we have to identify the symptoms of this viral attack and that very early. Any infos on early symptoms are valuable, it doesn’t matter how gruesome they might be.
Prepare for the unexpected:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0f7d361faf83.jpg[/atsimg]

First: Facts
It is now official: The virus has changed and has adopted a genetic sequence (Receptor Binding Domain D225G), that is the same the 1918 flu had:

socioecohistory.wordpress.com...

As the name said, the change will give the virus the ability to bind as easy to a new host as the 1918 flu.
Therefore it can be reasonably assumed that the infection rates will be the same as 1918. Maybe even higher, due to vast increased human mobility.
I learned that in 1918 approx. 30% of the world-population was infected, but the mortality-rate was low (about 2%). Still more than 20 Million people died. In the Ukraine the hospital admissions of people with ARI (acute respiratory infection) have a fatality rate of from 5% to 10%. But that’s for the “harmless” strain.
So how about the mortality-rate of the mutant strain? Here are some preliminary results:

www.recombinomics.com...

Analysed were 10 samples, of which 4 were fatal cases. In all fatalities mentioned in this article, the virus had the D225G mutation, and only in those ones.
That indicates a much, much higher fatality rate for the new strain. This might be a result of the “improved” receptor binding, which meant higher rate of infection.
It locks like we are in for a VERY rough ride…

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c1ccd0a1997d.jpg[/atsimg]

Obviously the medical community is unprepared for this onslaught. And they know it:

files.abovetopsecret.com...

So we are more or less left to help ourselves. This thread is great in doing that, and let me contribute my 2 cents.
My approach will be the worst case scenario, and I will outdo SCARCER in the hype by far. That’s to wake up even the hopeful believers in “good diet and rest”. We are facing the tiger without the window in-between, and any mistake made will be made only once. Because the nature of this disease is unforgiving and deadly. That’s for the intro.

It looks like that there is a specific characteristic to the viral attack: The more hyperactive the immune system is, the more dramatic is the outcome - more fatalities. Kids have a very strong immune response…
Although it is always mentioned, that there were “underlying health conditions” in the infected kids in question, this looks like a smoke-screen to me. It is maybe supposed to hide that the more healthy you are, the more likely you are going to die.
.. which would be very bad news, because it would mean that the common avenue to boost the immune system will only result into a higher probability to go down.

So, what to do? Vaccination, some will say. But it looks like as if vaccination does not affect the new strain, the vaccine fails (see link above).
Vaccination would make things even worse, because the vaccine “boosts” also the immune system, through the toxic squalene. Then the hyperactive, “boosted” immune system runs into the virus, while being affected by the squalene poisons – a fatal double whammy. Maybe that’s why they are so interested to get us all vaccinated, even the (humane?) CFR people…

I hope that I am wrong, and if so, then please post and correct me.
But if not, what to do?
It looks like a typical CATCH 22 situation. (I really like the film)



Symptoms
It is very difficult to find data on that in the internet. It looks like there is a general consensus throughout the international medical community NOT to disclose medical details. This looks not like an organized gag-order, but has obviously more to do with a (only human) response to the FRIGHTENING NATURE OF THE DISEASE. But the info that seeps through is just terrifying:

The mutant virus goes deep into the lung and starts there its destructive work. Doctors will often do only a nasal swab for testing. While the patient will test negative for the virus, it is busy down in the lung.

So what is happening in detail: The mutant virus can survive higher temperatures and is therefore going deep into the lungs into the area of the fine Alveoli, where the oxygen-to-blood-transfer is done via a very thin membrane:


Lets look at the hypothetical case of Mr. John Doe:
The “prepared” Mr. Doe is walking the street, thoroughly protected by tight clothing, gloves and a really good filter-mask. A microscopic drop, containing the virus, attaches itself to any fine tissue at the eyes. The virus enters the body of Mr. Doe through this gate.
The mutant virus travels deep into the lung and starts there its destructive work. The infection of Mr. John Doe starts in the beginning like an ordinary flu-infection: Fever, maybe nausea etc..
Mr. John Doe will enter a

Systemic inflammatory response syndrome (SIRS).

(SIRS, I don’t like you !)


Mr. Doe feels that something is not right, and as a precaution gets himself tested for swine flue. The doctor will do only a nasal swab for testing. And while Mr. Doe will test negative for the virus, it is busy down in the lung. The mutant virus can survive higher temperatures and is therefore going deep into the lungs into the area of the fine Alveoli, where the oxygen-to-blood-transfer is done via a very thin membrane.

files.abovetopsecret.com...

The immune systems white blood cells will react to this infection by releasing Cytokines (a messenger substance), which will attract more white blood-cells to fight the virus. These cytokines-releases are normally well regulated, just enough to call for the help required.

The patient Doe enters the stage of SEPSIS.

Up to now everything is normal, but then….

In this case there is a massive pathogenic attack on the way. So something somehow goes wrong:
- Either the white cells fail to initiate a pathogenic recognition of the virus, which would start the fight against it. Instead the cells will call for more help by releasing more cytokines.
- Or the onslaught is so massive that it somehow triggers an unproportional (extreme and massive) cytokine response from the white cells. For that the virus has to have an extremely high rate of reproduction, which might be the case here.
Anyway, the result is: An ongoing massive overproduction of cytokines, with no check and balance in place. The mechanism that triggers this response is not clear. It is called a CYTOKINE STORM (CS).

What is a cytokine storm and how severe are the symptoms?
In 2006 a new substance called TGN1412 was tested, which caused a CS in the test persons. Here is what happened:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/03/10/exclusive--one-yearafter-
drug-test-horror---89520-18732768/


By now the patient Doe will have entered the next phase: Septic Shock

As the cytokine-production goes over the roof, even a layman can now recognize that something goes very wrong. The cytokines opens the blood vessels, so that plasma and blood can enter into the body-texture and –organs. The thin membrane of the Alveoli becomes porous along with other membranes. The blood pressure will sink rapidly, because of the capillary leakages.
Sometimes an “acute alteration in mental status” of the patient is observed. In other words, the patient faints and/or gurgles nonsense.
Now the able doctors will recognize that the patient Doe has entered the phase of a

CYTOKINE STORM (CS)

with a

Systemic Capillary Leak Syndrome (SCLS)


Patient Doe will be admitted to ICU.
But now the lungs have started filling up with fluids:

files.abovetopsecret.com...


Please notice the dark areas at the periphery. Thats were the Alveoli are.
And within only 6 hours it will look pretty bad:

files.abovetopsecret.com...

The dark areas are liquids in the lungs.
The blood pressure collapses because of the drain of fluids.
To stabilize the blood pressure, the patient Doe will receive (a lot of) fluid by intravenous means. But that fluid will immediately leak out into the body-organs and -tissue. As the patient will receive up to 40 liters of fluid (or more), the body will swell and become unrecognizably bloated. At that stage some Does will go into cardiatic arrest, but not our Doe. He is already unconscious, but his body still fights.
Depending on the scope of the capillary leakage the lungs will be filled with either blood-plasma or blood-cells plus plasma.
This pumping-up of the whole body inhibits the flow of oxygen and nutrition to the vital organs (Ischemia). Patient Doe will of course get help through a respirator. And while others will die of intrapulmonary haemorrhage necrotizing pneumonia, our Doe is still on it. As the lungs are no more functional and the CS is still running, the patient Doe will now enter into the stage of

Multiple Organ Dysfunction Syndrome (MODS)

The kidneys, lungs, heart, liver etc. are starting to fail. That’s where the story of our patient Doe ends fatally.
But wait, I forgot: As the CS is an immunological reaction to an infection which can not be overcome by conventional means, the doctors will give the patient immunosuppressors in order to overcome at least the unregulated cytokine production. The result is a very weak, bloated patient with a suppressed immune system and a multiple punctured body. It’s where secondary infections like Staphylococcus Aureus et al are entering the playground to finish up the undone.
It’s a horrible death.
So this is a CYTOKINE STORM. So, to be clear: Whatever is done, either the CS hits Doe or the secondary infections. A real CATCH.

Oh sorry, I forgot to nail the coffin. As posted earlier:

www.pnas.org...


Quote: “Because cytokine inhibition does not protect against death, therapies that target the virus rather than the cytokines may be preferable.”
It means that even if patient Doe survives the CS, he still has to get rid of the fast multiplying virus.
It’s a real CATCH 22.

It’s a horrible death.

SO LETS FACE THE TIGER :
Here a pic of a fatal case of SCLS/MODS. WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGE!!

files.abovetopsecret.com...


The light bluish skin is a result of anaemic blood, blood without oxygen. It’s the Cyanosis Blue of 1918.
You can see the blood in the lungs protruding from the mouth.

That’s the answer to why we have a mum throughout the medical community. The truth is so devastating, that nobody wants to admit it in public.
Yes folks, as cruel as it seems: That’s what some of us are in for…
Still thinking about sauerkraut and a good digestive rest?

BLESSINGS
&
GRATITUDE


LOVE

I know that I am guilty of fear-mongering.
Well, after this macabre overture, let me state this: I would not have resorted to this, if I would not be convinced that we can ride the Tiger….

My understand of cytokines, if i recall correctly from my physiology courses, is that the healthier you are, the more at risk you are for this kind of storm.

This is why certain illnesses kill more young people than others, which kill more old people. It is because the immune system is robust, that it reacts to strongly - and then kills you.

It's a real catch 22, eh?

peace.

"What is known is that some H1N1 viruses have pandemic potential and that historical evidence supports the possibility that healthy young adults may be especially susceptible to more severe infection and poor outcomes due to the ability of a strong immune system to initiate a cytokine storm, Woodland adds."


www.upi.com...

I have a new wrinkle to add to the fabric.

Wed I went to the Dr for lab work for my annual check up.
I was in the midst of a mild Cytokine Storm from something I ate.
MY blood pressure was up by 14 points both readings, pulse was about normal (68).
Fri the nurse called and said that I had a High Potassium reading!
As we talked I mentioned all my usual symptoms that go with this sort of thing, and she replied that all of them are indicative of High Potassium.

I had been primarily blaming Histamine for my symptoms. However no Anti-histamine ever even touched the symptoms. I guess that is why.

So we now have all the Ramifications of High Potassium to consider in the mix here. One item I found so far in my research..."A High Potassium reading may occur if the Red Blood Cells in the drawn blood sample were somehow damaged.Not likely to have happened.

MY Guess...the Histamine damages the Red Blood Cells which would release their Potassium. Now we need to know what the interaction of the machophages etc. are with Potassium.

Everyone has to make their own choice but as I said when this wave began this IS NOT the time to run out and get the vaccine.

By the time a wave becomes obvious most of the people who will be victims of it are already infected - this virus has a two week incubation potential which is yet another aspect of it that makes it one scary virus.

There's a lot of viral theory right now about the vaccines, that they will actually make things worse, that they will make the people who take them more vulnerable to the more deadly swine flu variant - all valid in theory but we are missing the pile of dead people who were vaccinated which would prove the theory real.

I can't say that event just hasn't happened yet - the battle in nature between the two strains is still underway.

All the large outbreak locations shared other contributing factors ranging from weather to populations with existing health problems and so on. The talk among the professionals is that Ukraine suffered a large number of deaths because they relied on home remedies when they should have been taking the Tamiflu or being placed on ventilation, for example.

I believe the alternate treatments are important to catalog which is why I agreed to come to the thread but please be intelligent about using them. You HAVE to know when it's time to call the ambulance and even though Tamiflu has side effects I'm not wild about it's a temporary ill as opposed to possible death.

I strongly advise people to have the Rx meds ready and know when the time has come to use them, obviously within the first two days of infection. You need to be able to monitor rate of respiration , blood pressure, pulse, temp, fluid in and out, etc and keep a chart so you can tell if the patient is really improving or just exhausted.

Hopefully things won't get worse. I have a bad feeling they will but I keep hoping this pandemic will blow over without reaching 1918 level virulence.

[edit on 29-11-2009 by ecoparity]