[Cures DB2]: Flu Immunity and Cykotine Prevention, page 2

reply to post by Scarcer

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Hi there. Yeah actually I have briefly seen it reported via some scholarly journals that both alpha and beta blockers may lessen a cytokine storm but I have seen that by a wide margin their are more articles and more evidence within those articles that Alpha blockers are virtually the best thing you can take for a cytokine storm.

As for the statins same source. Though I think that with the statins and beta blockers there was only one or two articles about their possible use in treating cytokine storms. They were said to reduce a certain protein and thus reduce the inflammation. I cant remember verbatim. If I get a chance I'll try to find and link the articles again. I know anybody can look them up if they have access to scholarly journals. (like via pubmed etc...) Also I know that statins in particular are very well tolerated with virtually no side effects and that's why I think they are entirely usable for the normal person in a pinch. Also I take a super low dose alpha myself and know that it's pretty easily tolerated too.

So in summary, the best out of my recommendations to try for a cytokine storm is the ALPHA BLOCKERS. They have been shown by many scholarly journals and research to reduce the effects of a cytokine storm. There is also evidence, though not as much nor as convincing on both beta blockers and statins as well. Statins have been shown to be very well tolerated. So I say exactly what I said above. Nothing less, nothing more. I will say that I am an RN and my wife is a MD but I will stop short of "recommending" anything. I simply am stating some info. do with it as you will. I also will try to dig up some sources is I have time. Otherwise google it and I'm sure you will find something.

reply to post by Scarcer

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You are very welcome and sorry for the spelling/grammar mistakes in my posts. It's early and I'm tired!lol...

Isn't it a paradox that it is the immune system that is the real killer here?
Kind of makes you wonder just how deadly the actual Virus really is.
It seems to be more of a decoy; a trick to get the body to destroy itself.

Cytokine storms are also responsible for probably most Allergy reactions.
I have food allergies,(glutamate & citric acid) and it seems that the main irritant is Histamine.
It gives that flu like achiness, fatigue and headache. Sometimes I feel like my brain has had Hot Sauce poured on it. I have varying degrees of this constantly. Sadly all the items mentioned in your list also cause a Storm.

I know that they say to avoid sugar....because Sugar supresses the immune system, but isn't this what we want to do?

This info should be directed to the attenion of allergy sufferers as well as folks worried about the Flu.

I was researching Cytokine Storm and came across info on a drug called "OX40-ig". It is interesting and frustratingly "par for the course" that it has been shelved. No human tests have been done with it. The article is about half way down the page, titled "H5N1 Avian Flu Causes Dangerous Cytokine Storm "

How do you like that?

excerpt:Results show six days after infection with flu, mice treated with OX40:Ig were indistinguishable from uninfected control mice. But infected mice that had not been treated lost 25 per cent of their body weight, appeared hunched, withdrawn and lost their appetite - all characteristic symptoms of flu.

When treatment with OX40:Ig was delayed for several days after infection, until the mice had lost 20 per cent of their body weight and OX40:Ig was administered, symptoms were reversed.

Re-infection also indicated that the ability of mice to respond to a second infection was not affected by the reduced T cell immunity during the initial infection.




[edit on 21-11-2009 by OhZone]

Marijuana or antihistamines both suppress Cytokine's.

[edit on 11/21/09 by makeitso]

Originally posted by OhZone

Cytokine storms are also responsible for probably most Allergy reactions.
I have food allergies,(glutamate & citric acid) and it seems that the main irritant is Histamine.
It gives that flu like achiness, fatigue and headache. Sometimes I feel like my brain has had Hot Sauce poured on it. I have varying degrees of this constantly. Sadly all the items mentioned in your list also cause a Storm.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by OhZone]

If your right about allergies basically being mild Cytokine Overreactions then it would seam logical to take anti allergy medications if you got a cytokine storm.

Also adaptogenic herbs would also seam logical. Especially Reishi Mushroom because it's known to be anti-allergenic.

Hence I'll state this quote again:

Avoid a hyperactive (or hypoactive) immune system (and theoretically, the cytokine storm ) with immunomodulators (rather than simple immune stimulators) like Elderberry. Elderberry is extra nice because it has also been shown to disarm flu viruses and prevent them from replicating in the body. Elder flower is a fine relaxant diaphoretic and lung tonic as well, and all around near perfect flu prevention and treatment remedy. I especially like my Elderberry Elixir recipe (scroll down til you see the recipe) to treat and prevent a variety of flu and cold bugs. Other herbs useful in the treatment of hyperimmune or autoimmune conditions include Peach, Cherry, Rose and Reishi.

I'd like to see an article or two showing if/how/which cytokines are responsible for allergies so we can make a direct connection to see if it's the same ones as cytokine storms. If that turns out to be correct, than it would be logical to figure out which allergy meds would likely work.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Scarcer]

I'm reading this right now and seeing what knowledge I can absorb. Tell me what you think.

Are anti-histamines the only kind of allergy meds out there?

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Scarcer]

Found some kind of study on supressing proinflamitory cytokines here

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Scarcer]

Its ok to study suppressing Cytokines as long as you're aware of the following study:

Inhibition of the cytokine response does not protect against lethal H5N1 influenza infection

We investigated whether inhibition of the cytokine response is sufficient to protect against death caused by A/Vietnam/1203/04 (H5N1) virus isolated from a recent human fatality. These studies were performed in mice, which have been well established as a model that has H5N1 replication sites, H5N1-induced cytokine production, and H5N1 pathogenicity similar to that in humans (11, 13). Furthermore, transgenic technology allowed us to examine mice genetically deficient in specific cytokines. The results show that mice deficient in the inflammatory cytokines TNF-α, IL-6, or CCL2 succumb to infection with A/Vietnam/1203/04, as do wild-type mice treated with the cytokine inhibitor glucocorticoids.

I know we are not discussing H5N1, but the Cytokine Storm is the same in both types of Flu. The study indicates that suppressing the Cytokine Storm may not save your life.

Interesting:

there's an interesting discussion on prednisolone here: "The trick with the prednisolone re. cytokine storm…in a sense an autoimmune allergy…is large doses for short periods or time…1–3 days as the cytokine storm is also short in duration. This was the only treatment shown to be effective in treating SARS infections that also have the cytokine storm as a characteristic. "

Source

Info on Prednisolone

Anyone know of any non prescription alternatives?

reply to post by makeitso

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Well basically that's saying that if you suppress the cytokine storm, you become at risk for death by infection, correct?

I'm guessing it would be wise to take both a cytokine inhibitor and something antiviral like MMS, Colloidal Silver or Garlic to try and get both at the same time.

Just theories

Another lead to look into

A Cytokine storm is not why people will die. It is failing defense mechanism, particularly low levels of lung protomorphogen (determinant factor) which allows such drastic inflammation which leads to bleeding, clotting, DIC etc..

Source

Makeitso, Just so we don’t get confused here on the Cytokine Supressing agents; your referenced article is talking about a Glucocoricoid - a sugar.
The one I was referring to - the OX40-ig is a Protein. They would behave differently.

Here is a site that describes the Allergic Response. As you see, it is a cytokine storm.
Asthma allergy

This describes the Food Allergy Response.
Food allergy

“low levels of lung protomorphogen”
That is interesting, but why the low levels? Any pertinent factors as to just who may have these low levels ?

I have not read any of the reports on details of the deaths from this condition. As I understand it the fatalities seem to be among the Under 20 age group. So is there something about them which would preclude this low level of lung protomorphogen?

The death in One day thing is really scary. That would call for having Something on hand to take at first Twinge of discomfort.

Originally posted by OhZone
Makeitso, Just so we don’t get confused here on the Cytokine Supressing agents; your referenced article is talking about a Glucocoricoid - a sugar.

The study was two-fold.

1 part tried the Glucocoricoid as a cytokine suppressor. It didn't work.

The second part of the study is more important. It used mice that have been genetically modified. These mice do not have the inflammatory cytokines that are seen to be the factors in H5N1 cytokine storms, in particular TNF-α, IL-6, or CC chemokine ligand 2.

If the cytokine storm is the primary cause of death, these genetically altered mice should not die since they don't have the cytokines responsible for the storm.

They died anyway.

That indicates that cytokine suppression of any type may not be enough to inhibit fatality.

However, temper this with the knowledge that its just 1 study, (ie, not definitive on its own), its 2 years old, and it was testing H5N1, not H1N1v.

H1N1v (WHO designation for Pandemic H1N1 2009 - California and other variants) appear to express higher cytokine levels of MCP-1, MIP-1a, IL-6 and IL-18, which is a bit different from H5N1's high cytokine levels in the above study.

Ref:
A novel H1N1 virus causes the first pandemic of the 21st century
and
In vitro and in vivo characterization of new swine-origin H1N1 influenza viruses

[edit on 11/22/09 by makeitso]

Wow, there is hardly any information on this... but here's some important stuff I've found so far. I hope someone more knowledgeable can help.

"The protomorphogen is the fundamental building block of cell life. It is not DNA or RNA. Nor is it, in its simplest state, a protein or nucleoprotein. It is a "template" or spatial pattern that determines the production of nucleoproteins or other proteins. This primary unit is CELL SPECIFIC, NOT SPECIES SPECIFIC. This is significant. For example, liver protomorphogen is specific as a pattern for liver cell activity; a protomorphogen, properly extracted, is the SAME throughout all mammalian species. Because it is a mineral substrate, it is, for all practical purposes, indestructible.

Source

While in the cell determinant state, there appears to be an affinity for lipid substances and a high degree of absorption onto connective tissue. It has been demonstrated that when cell determinant levels are low, cell division decreases. In similar fashion, when higher concentrations are present, cell division is inhibited. These studies show that stimulation is exerted by both homologous (similar in structure and origin but not necessarily in function) and heterologous (cell tissue not normal to the part) cell determinants, while inhibition is exhibited by homologous cell determinants. It is critical to note that this stimulation effect is specifically related to normal cellular growth and not the stimulation of abnormal cell patterns.

There are two broad categories of cases that can benefit for PMG support. The first is one in which there is or appears to be an actual genetic defect or limitation that precludes normal cell function or growth and the other is what is commonly referred to as "autoimmune disease". The amazing thing about Dr. Lee's work is that he so clearly understood the factors that lead to these "modern" problems and had equally as clearly worked out potential solutions by creating the PMGs. Yet he did this long before aberrant immune response ("auto-immune") was even understood or accepted. Dr. Lee's theory was so far ahead of "current thinking", that he was dismissed as being a quack and was never given serious consideration, except by those practitioners who already knew him and his previous work with whole food supplements. In truth, the practical and incredibly powerful therapeutic application of the protomorpholgy theory was ahead of his time, perhaps by a century or more!

Source

So I'm guessing it would be logical to eat specific tissues or find supplements containing these.

Check out this suppliment I found. In the ingredients it contains bovine lung.

So if I'm right, if we increase our levels, we increase the cellular division/healing rate in our lungs? Or in theory is this not sufficient?

I need someone well educated in this to give some insight.

Turns out Biotics Research only sells their products to licensed professionals.

Protomorphogens are like homeopathics. They promote healing over time. Protomorph products are composed of nuclear proteins and used to supply a better RNA/DNA template so that the body can assemble available nutrients to repair damaged tissue in the glands being treated. What differentiates protomorphogens from glandulars from cytosol extracts is the patented extraction process.

Source
Here is a nice list of Protomorphogen™ Extracts. They don't have anything for respiratory, unless its under a name I don't recognize.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by Scarcer]

Ah yeah they do, under Pneumotrophin PMG. Sadly it's the same with them, have to get their products through a professional.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by Scarcer]

Here's quite a good link about staying healthy and preventing cytokine storm.

www.groundreport.com...

Here's another one more aimed towards treating avian flu with vitamin C.

www.orthomed.com...

Also, for Colloidal Silver, its ideally held under the tongue for a minute or more, much easier to enter the bloodstream there and less chance of it getting into your system first.

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