Originally posted by Knowledgeseeker5434
I really dont see why people are against unifications.

Because they are ignorant. Because they have been brainwashed by paranoid conspiracy freaks that any form of centralized power (and power can only be centralized) is "evil" or whatever. If you asked them to offer an alternative, they would have nothing to say. (Unless anarchy is a viable option....)

I am not saying it's perfect, far from it, but then nothing in this man-made world is.
It's about choosing the options that are the least bad for most people in the long run.

Originally posted by Ethereal Gargoyle

Originally posted by Knowledgeseeker5434
I really dont see why people are against unifications.

Because they are ignorant. Because they have been brainwashed by paranoid conspiracy freaks that any form of centralized power (and power can only be centralized) is "evil" or whatever. If you asked them to offer an alternative, they would have nothing to say. (Unless anarchy is a viable option....)

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

People object to the EU because the EU is a bureaucratic monster that continues to further limit both the rights of European individuals and the sovereignty of its member nations. The alternative people ask for, is a return to the nation-state and to allow each people to maintain its sovereignty within its own borders.

Originally posted by Ethereal Gargoyle
It's about choosing the options that are the least bad for most people in the long run.

Expansion of EU power is beyond any doubt the WORST option.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
The alternative people ask for, is a return to the nation-state and to allow each people to maintain its sovereignty within its own borders.

as far as i can see, this is only true in the UK, outside the UK the people seem to want the alternative of a more democratic EU that holds the rights of the people in the highest regard.

it's not really a philosophical matter of sovereignty for the people of the UK either. generally speaking, the people against the EU don't like being part of a club unless they're chairman. it's not as if these people are hugely worried about the sovereignty of scotland, northern ireland or wales.

[edit on 20/11/09 by pieman]

Its not a president in the sense of a president in the US or France etc..

Its more of a prime minister which is usually chosen by party members anyway..

Its a foreign policy position.. it has almost nothing to do with day to day life of Europeans..

When the time comes that the "President of Europe" has a say in the day to day running of the continent.. it will be democratic.. that strategy is obvious about the EU.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

People object to the EU because the EU is a bureaucratic monster that continues to further limit both the rights of European individuals and the sovereignty of its member nations. The alternative people ask for, is a return to the nation-state and to allow each people to maintain its sovereignty within its own borders.

Thats the problem.. people like you only see one thing when they view the EU and globalization. Its a small minded outlook IMO.. I have gone through the whole intense paranoia stage, the whole conspiracy stage etc for years and have now settled with support for the EU, its goals and the general goals of globalist's.. obviously there is much I don't agree with but this whole idea of living under an evil authoritarian dictatorship is wrong and nationalism is an emotion.

There are bigger fish to fry in this world than small minded nationalism... like the survival of the planets species and advancement of the human race and colonizing space. We should not be able to plunder, pollute and consume excessively when a sixth of the world is hungry.. Multi polar expansion is a way to quickly fix this over the next century. the only rights the EU has been taking away from Europeans since the 70's is the right to destroy the planet and the right to screw over the less fortunate.

However, I would never support a one world government in the sense of a country's government.. a global regulatory body for multiple unified blocs on the other hand makes perfect sense to me.

And there's no point in coming back to try and insult me with 'you are so ignorant' comments like half the idiots on this site, I know what im talking about, iv been researching this for years.. watching every obscure website for info on global changes.. and iv come to the conclusion that the majority of the fear for a multipolar world stems from Americans who are afraid of the decline of their empire & fear change and the unknown.


[edit on 20/11/09 by Dermo]

Originally posted by pieman
as far as i can see, this is only true in the UK, outside the UK the people seem to want the alternative of a more democratic EU that holds the rights of the people in the highest regard.

Wrong. I live in Belgium and I rarely find anyone who speaks positive about the EU and who isn't afraid to lose yet more national sovereignty or personal freedom. Our voices are just ignored by the international mainstream media to uphold the pretense of broad support.

Originally posted by Dermo
When the time comes that the "President of Europe" has a say in the day to day running of the continent.. it will be democratic.. that strategy is obvious about the EU.

Thusfar, the EU seems to have more in common with a totalitarian dictatorship than with a democracy.

Originally posted by Dermo
Thats the problem.. people like you only see one thing when they view the EU and globalization.

No we don't. We just notice how stupid rules are implemented by a huge bureaucracy that doesn't seem to care what the general public wants or needs.

Originally posted by Dermo
obviously there is much I don't agree with but this whole idea of living under an evil authoritarian dictatorship is wrong and nationalism is an emotion.

No it's not. The EU pretty much already equals authoritarian dictatorship and nationalism is the only meaningful alternative.

Originally posted by Dermo
the only rights the EU has been taking away from Europeans since the 70's is the right to destroy the planet and the right to screw over the less fortunate.

Wrong. We've been losing more and more of our rights for years and this goes way beyond our " right to screw over the less fortunate".

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
Wrong. I live in Belgium and I rarely find anyone who speaks positive about the EU and who isn't afraid to lose yet more national sovereignty or personal freedom.

sorry, i'm not seeing how this makes me wrong, are you saying there is broad support for the dissolution of the EU in belguim? is there a political party, a grass roots movement, show me something.

i didn't say people weren't worried about freedom and some level of sovereignty, i said they wanted it within the context of a united europe.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
I don't know anyone who does.

the party you just out lined isn't attempting to dissolve the EU, they just want to change it a bit. this is what i've been saying.

there is 1 belgian in the block.

how many people do you know and who are they voting for?

Originally posted by pieman
the party you just out lined isn't attempting to dissolve the EU, they just want to change it a bit.

They want to change it a bit because many people believe it is already to late to abolish the EU entirely. That doesn't mean they support the EU.

Originally posted by pieman
there is 1 belgian in the block.

Unfortunately, pretty much all political parties are quite distant from the average guy in the street (regardless of class).

Originally posted by pieman
how many people do you know and who are they voting for?

I know a very diverse kind of people, but a clear pattern is people becoming more conservative, more anti-multiculturalist and more anti-EU as time progresses.

Originally posted by PC equals Newspeak
That doesn't mean they support the EU.

you've claimed there is a movement towards dissolution of the EU, this block doesn't seem to be part of it. can you show me some people who are?

I know a very diverse kind of people, but a clear pattern is people becoming more conservative, more anti-multiculturalist and more anti-EU as time progresses.

if the pattern so so clear why are you having such a hard time defining it?

i'm just asking you to show me the evidence that there is a widespread movement against a united europe, of any kind.

i'm perfectly willing to accept it exists if it's there, just point to it for me.

Well, i'm a Belgian and i would never thought Herman would make it as a EU president.

The only problem is that now he's of to become EU president, he has to leave his office as Belgian prime minister,and it wil be given to (presumably) Yves Leterme, who we had as prime minister before, i don't like the guy at all.

Congrats to Herman i guess, althou i doubt he'll ever have any real power.

Originally posted by pieman
you've claimed there is a movement towards dissolution of the EU, this block doesn't seem to be part of it. can you show me some people who are?

The block in question is as far as you can go in mainstream politics, I'm afraid. Calling explicitly for the abolition of the EU is simply a voice that's not allowed to be heard.

Originally posted by pieman

I know a very diverse kind of people, but a clear pattern is people becoming more conservative, more anti-multiculturalist and more anti-EU as time progresses.

if the pattern so so clear why are you having such a hard time defining it?

Because this happenes accross political ideologies. I even know a Lesbian anarchist who's graduately moving to conservative, anti-multiculturalist and anti-EU viewpoints.

Originally posted by pieman
i'm just asking you to show me the evidence that there is a widespread movement against a united europe, of any kind.

i'm perfectly willing to accept it exists if it's there, just point to it for me.

Anti-EU sentiment is very much alive in the steets, pubs and salons but I'm not aware of any public forums on this issue.

Originally posted by pieman
what do you think of him, as a person? i've read some media blurb but i'm interested in more personal points of view.

He seems quite dull and ininspired to me. I'm Belgian too, by the way...

Originally posted by pieman
he seems to have been picked for the job for his unification and language skills. i might be wrong, but i think his remit is to try to get everyone to work together.

That does seem to fit his profile. After all, he had pretty much the same task as Belgian prime minister.

[edit on 20/11/09 by PC equals Newspeak]

in a block of 500 million people i'ld expect some opposition, i just question it's significance.

i believe the lisbon treaty allows you to force a debate in the parliment if you get a petition of 1 million signatures, if there is a good deal of opposition this should be attempted.

regarding rompuy, he sounds like a good choice for the job. i wasn't mad about the idea at the start but i look forward to seeing how it goes, now that it's done.

Originally posted by pieman
i believe the lisbon treaty allows you to force a debate in the parliment if you get a petition of 1 million signatures, if there is a good deal of opposition this should be attempted.

Ah yes, the direct democracy feature.

5% of the European population can force a debate in the European Parliament , including possible legislation too.