Climate Change Protests on 5th December in London , page 3

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reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 03:17 AM by ElectricUniverse

reply to post by loner007

We are not accelerating ANYTHING..... Haven't you read ALREADY that ALL green biomass of Earth NEEDS AND CRAVES for atmospheric CO2?....

Haven't you read the dozens, upon dozens of links, and research that SHOWS CO2 changes do not coincide with temperature changes?....on the contrary CO2 lags an average 800 years, sometimes it is longer, and somtimes less, but it ALWAYS lags temperature changes...

Even in longer periods of millions of years you can see that SEVERAL times temperatures were higher and CO2 was lower, and vice versa...

Even during the continuing Climate Change, which is natural, the Earth began to warm for most of the world in the 1600s, but in some parts it began to warm in the 1500s, and then in the 1860s was when CO2 began to slowly increase at first, temperatures continued to incrase, and CO2 took longer to increase.....

There is NO EVIDENCE but flawed computer models which claim that CO2 causes the warming claimed by the AGWers, and it is a FACT that GCMs are flawed....

Koutsoyiannis, D., A. Efstratiadis, N. Mamassis, and A. Christofides, On the credibility of climate predictions, Hydrological Sciences Journal, 53 (4), 671–684, 2008.

[doc_id=864]

[English]

Geographically distributed predictions of future climate, obtained through climate models, are widely used in hydrology and many other disciplines, typically without assessing their reliability. Here we compare the output of various models to temperature and precipitation observations from eight stations with long (over 100 years) records from around the globe. The results show that models perform poorly, even at a climatic (30-year) scale. Thus local model projections cannot be credible, whereas a common argument that models can perform better at larger spatial scales is unsupported.

www.itia.ntua.gr...

Orographic cloud in a GCM: the missing cirrus
Journal Climate Dynamics
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0930-7575 (Print) 1432-0894 (Online)
Issue Volume 24, Numbers 7-8 / June, 2005
DOI 10.1007/s00382-005-0020-9
Pages 771-780
Subject Collection Earth and Environmental Science
SpringerLink Date Monday, May 02, 2005

PDF (702.7 KB)HTMLFree Preview

Orographic cloud in a GCM: the missing cirrus
S. M. Dean1 , B. N. Lawrence2, R. G. Grainger1 and D. N. Heuff3

(1) Atmospheric Oceanic and Planetary Physics, Clarendon Laboratory, University of Oxford, Oxford, Oxfordshire, UK
(2) British Atmospheric Data Centre, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Chilton, Oxfordshire, UK
(3) Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

Received: 13 September 2004 Accepted: 25 February 2005 Published online: 27 April 2005

Abstract Observations from the International Satellite Cloud Climatalogy Project (ISCCP) are used to demonstrate that the 19-level HadAM3 version of the United Kingdom Met Office Unified Model does not simulate sufficient high cloud over land. By using low-altitude winds, from the European Centre for Medium Range Weather Forecasting (ECMWF) Re-Analysis from 1979 to 1994 (ERA-15) to predict the areas of maximum likelihood of orographic wave generation, it is shown that much of the deficiency is likely to be due to the lack of a representation of the orographic cirrus generated by sub-grid scale orography. It is probable that this is a problem in most GCMs.

www.springerlink.com...

The widely accepted (albeit unproven) theory that manmade global warming will accelerate itself by creating more heat-trapping clouds is challenged this month in new research from The University of Alabama in Huntsville.

Instead of creating more clouds, individual tropical warming cycles that served as proxies for global warming saw a decrease in the coverage of heat-trapping cirrus clouds, says Dr. Roy Spencer, a principal research scientist in UAHuntsville's Earth System Science Center.

That was not what he expected to find.

"All leading climate models forecast that as the atmosphere warms there should be an increase in high altitude cirrus clouds, which would amplify any warming caused by manmade greenhouse gases," he said. "That amplification is a positive feedback. What we found in month-to-month fluctuations of the tropical climate system was a strongly negative feedback. As the tropical atmosphere warms, cirrus clouds decrease. That allows more infrared heat to escape from the atmosphere to outer space."

The results of this research were published today in the American Geophysical Union's "Geophysical Research Letters" on-line edition. The paper was co-authored by UAHuntsville's Dr. John R. Christy and Dr. W. Danny Braswell, and Dr. Justin Hnilo of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, CA.

www.uah.edu...

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 03:18 AM by shamhat

Originally posted by john124
I intend to join friends who are associated with "Friends of the Earth". I disagree with those who are associated with greenpeace who climb on top of government buildings to make a point, as it's only detrimental to the cause, and I prefer that people educate themselves with the science, rather than instead provoke an entirely emotional response from people, so the people can hopefully make up their own minds correctly.

Don't knock Greenpeace, they have been campaigning to raise awareness on climate change and the toxification of the environment for decades. Their methods have worked eventually in raising awareness and due to that they have been repeatedly targeted in intelligence operations. It is because of NGOs like Greenpeace, that are not subject to the pressures of corporate lobbyists that anything has been done at all. They have worked thanklessly and have seen that work ridiculed and villified, they deserve our respect and thanks.

The matter of Carbon emissions is a lesser one, and the only one that is being dealt with centrally. Recent conferences and the release of studies by Bristol University have found that the planet can absorb more carbon than had been anticipated. Climate change is still going to happen though and we need to adapt. While the Kyoto agreement is tackling carbon, there is no concerted effort to prevent pollution and contamination of our seas and water ways. We must, come together globally to tackle these problems and to ensure that those that commit these crimes against the planet are made to pay in ways that hurt them, and not in ways that they can pass onto the consumer.

The lives of millions of people are under threat due to the fragile reef based ecosystems that support them. These people can only survive this documented and clearly predicted catastrophe if action is taken right now, otherwise, there will be large scale famine and no doubt civil war to follow. While the PTB are diddling over carbon emissions which will only have a minor impact of climate change and will in no way prevent it, the real problems, that will lead to the deaths of millions of people as well as the destruction of marine habitats that contain unique species, are being brushed under the carpet.

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 03:25 AM by ElectricUniverse

reply to post by shamhat

The real problems are not being tackled like you said, instead you have die hard people who have made Global Warming their religion, and claim "it is all the fault of the western world", well sorry to say that most of the plastic which is found in the oceans has been thrown into rivers by the people of third world nations like India, Mexico, CHina, Russia, etc, etc.

Yet these countries want for the western world to pay for the problems they created, meanwhile the world is in an economic crisis. The war is going to start for all this ordering of some countries who want to get paid for the disasters they have caused, and they want to tax to death the rest of the world after they have taxed and subjugated to death their people...

[edit on 21-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 03:38 AM by shamhat

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by shamhat

The real problems are not being tackled like you said, instead you have die hard people who have made Global Warming their religion, and claim "it is all the fault of the western world",

The problem is that countries like the US have such a low opinion of the educational comprehension of their people that they 'dumbed' the matter down, called it 'Global Warming' to make it easier to digest.

well sorry to say that most of the plastic which is found in the oceans has been thrown into rivers by thrid world nations like India, Mexico, CHina, Russia, etc, etc,

How so? In the UK over the past couple of decades, investment in our waterways has led to the dredging and clearing of rivers and canals. We certainly can't blame the third world for the centuries of refuse that have been removed from those rivers. Nor for the fly-tipping or the littering which routinely lead to the death of wildlife, or the land contamination caused by the inordinate amount of refuse that each individual generates in our own consumeristic, throwaway society. It is easy to point fingers, but we are all responsible and the sooner that message gets across the sooner we may start making a difference to the problems that we collectively face.

yet these countries want for the western world to pay for the problems they created, meanwhile the world is in an economic crisis. The war is going to start for all this ordering of some countries who want to get paid for the disasters they have caused, and they want to tax to death the rest of the world after they have taxed and subjugated their people...

These countries have been subject to the imperial ambitions of Europe and later the US for centuries, we created the urbanisation and de-ruralisation in many of these countries, we insisted that they be like us and consume like us. That they are poor, that they suffer from a lack of education, that they do not have the systems in place to cope with the refuse that consumerism generates is hardly their fault. We voted in our governments, they cannot necessarily say the same thing. Pointing fingers only delays the inevitable. We need to confront this issue now, globally, or millions of people will die and there will be war like we have never seen before.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by shamhat]

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 04:00 AM by ElectricUniverse

[edit for double post]

[edit on 21-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 04:00 AM by ElectricUniverse

reply to post by shamhat

If you want to pay for your guilt that your country, the UK took over india, and you want to pay for the rivers they have polluted over the decades, that is your problem, don't demand the rest of the western world to do the same, more so when we are in an economic crisis and millions of Americans have lost our jobs...

citarum river, west java, indonesia

citarum river, west java, indonesia

dharavi, mumbai, india

estero de paco, manila, philippines

The western world did not put a gun on the heads of the rest of the world and made them do what you see in the above photos... Yet you get these countries, and CHina, as well as Russia, India, and the third world who don't want to accept any emission caps, and want the western world to pay for the mistakes the third world nations did, plus they want to tax the hell out of everyone in the western world to fill the pockets of the Chinese, India, and Russian government, among some others...

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 04:29 PM by shamhat

Your photos quite brilliantly demonstrate the greatest threat, currently, to our healthy and continued existence on this planet, the waste that we produce and how we dispose of it.

In the UK, while recycling is widespread and in some areas enforced, there is still a shortage of sites for landfill, we cannot, as a nation, sustainably dispose of the rubbish we create. Much of that waste has to be burned creating contaminates that are released into the atmosphere. Unless every householder and business acts now to reduce the amount of waste that we produce then we will not meet Kyoto targets due to the amount of waste that we currently have to burn.

Your photos illustrate how the majority of cities would look if we did not have systems in place to deal with the waste that we create and if we did not have welfare systems to cope with those portions of the population who otherwise are only able to subsist on the waste others.

Look carefully at the pictures you posted and then compare them to landfill sites in the UK and US. Firstly you will note that people are not permitted to live on or near landfill sites in those countries, it is common sense, and in our countries it is against an individuals rights not to be supported by the government in some way should they be unable to do so themselves. No such rights are afforded the people in the examples you post. They have no other option than to live in slums next to and on land-fill sites. Secondly you will notice the rubbish itself. Landfill sites in my country are not picked clean of everything that is edible or useful until you are left with only that has no re-use value, namely plastic packaging. Plastic though can be re-cycled, but only if the systems are in place to re-process them. Taking the examples you provide, in Dhavari such initiatives are under way.

Dhavari is one of the most densely populated places on the planet and was, according to Wikipedia, up until this year, the worst slum in the world. I should imagine, having seen Slum Dog Millionaire, and looked at your pictures, that no-one chooses to live there. The people in those slums have not benefitted from the industrialisation that has occurred in their country over the past two centuries, and they, no more than you and I, should be penalised for it.

That manufacturers, importers and exporters of mass produced goods, and the petro-chemical industries are doing nothing to help us is a real problem and one that will lead to all of us being penalised financially. That our governments are tacitly controlled by the very corporations that are the greatest offenders is why we the tax payers will be penalised. These corporations are currently not held wholly accountable for the damage that they are causing to this planet in terms of waste and toxic effluence. Any fines or costs that are incurred by these corporations is immediately passed onto the consumer in terms of price increases. They commit crimes against the environment and we pay for them.. If the cost is not passed onto the consumers it is likely that it will be passed onto the workers that are employed in third world countries where the raw materials originate and who are not protected by labour laws and a minimum wage.

In Dhavari, and Mumbai as a whole, the traditional way of life was fishing. When the swamps dried up, due to damming and other operations necessary to industrialisation and urbanisation, the people serviced the industry and became factory workers. Whole communities were moved wholesale out of rural areas to support the growing export demand for Indian textiles. Later, communities of tanners were moved there to meet the growing demand for Indian leather in West. It is still a major centre for exports of Indian goods, and many of those goods are produced in tiny factories in Dhavari, whose employees, many of them children, forced to work for pennies in crapped unhealthy conditions.

I do not consider myself responsible for the actions and aftermath of the British Empire but that does not mean that I should close my eyes to the very real human catastrophe that continues to be wrought in the former colonies of that Empire. Saying the problem isn’t mine, does not mean that the problem is any less real. I do not want to be taxed anymore than I already am, I can’t afford to be, but nor do I think that it is even remotely constructive to look at third world countries and point the finger at them without understanding how the situation came to be.

We pay taxes to have someone take our rubbish away, how exactly would you deal with your rubbish if that service was not available to you? How would your neighbours? I never drop litter, not ever, but I still have to contribute, through taxes to clear up after all those that do. That is Capitalism, and with Capitalism comes freeloading, that is the system that you and I live under. The people of Dhavari have come to live that way to service our want for more, and for more of it cheaper.

Now what I really object to, is the fact that as a tax payer, I am paying for every single MP from my country to attend these summits, I’m probably putting them up in a hotel that I couldn’t afford too, when all that money could much better be spent in helping those third world countries to deal with their waste more effectively. What I object to is all the talk, years and years of it, and no actions. And we are running out of time.

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 04:56 PM by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by shamhat
Your photos quite brilliantly demonstrate the greatest threat, currently, to our healthy and continued existence on this planet, the waste that we produce and how we dispose of it.
..........

But you fail to see the point. the western world did not throw that trash in those third world nations. That's the trash the people of third world nations have been throwing into rivers, and oceans for decades. But the governments of these third world nations instead of taking the bill to clean their act, they are demanding the western world to pay for their mess, and they don't want to accept any emission caps, or any sort of environmental laws.

These countries have received billions of dollars, but it has only enriched the elites of those nations, yet they are DEMANDING for the western world to clean all of their mess, meanwhile not wanting to put their own money to clean their mess, and not wanting any emission caps?... They are a bunch of hypocrites.

The western world is right now in an economic crisis, million of Americans and other westerners have lost their jobs and their economies are near bankrupcy, yet nations like China, India, Russia, and south American nations want to demand the western world to stop all of our factories, stop driving, and to accept emission caps which cannot be implemented...

These nations just want REDISTRIBBUTION OF WEALTH, nations like China have seen an increase in their economy, yet they don't want to put one cent to work and clean up their act.

Sorry but i am not going to accept a global tax scheme just so the rich Socialist elites can put more money in their pockets meanwhile they do NOTHING to clean their act with any money they have received, and will receive.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 05:03 PM by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by shamhat
....................
Dhavari is one of the most densely populated places on the planet and was, according to Wikipedia, up until this year, the worst slum in the world. I should imagine, having seen Slum Dog Millionaire, and looked at your pictures, that no-one chooses to live there. The people in those slums have not benefitted from the industrialisation that has occurred in their country over the past two centuries, and they, no more than you and I, should be penalised for it.

That manufacturers, importers and exporters of mass produced goods, and the petro-chemical industries are doing nothing to help us is a real problem and one that will lead to all of us being penalised financially. .
.............

And you know exactly what is going to happen if the western world accepts the emission caps?.... MORE jobs will be lost as manufacturers move to nations and cities like India, China, and Russia where there are NO EMISSION CAPS, and they have stated quite frequently that THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY EMISSIONS CAPS....

This will only increase the pollution in those cities where there is no emission caps, and this will further pollute the world...

CO2 is not a pollutant, the pollutants are the chemicals and other noxious gases which these nations which have no caps in emissions keep releasing without restrain...

But since ALL living beings, animals, etc emit CO2 it is the perfect excuse to tax people, more so people in western nations, meanwhile NOTHING is done to stop the nations which are the WORST POLLUTERS...

Tell me how is that going to "save the planet"?....

[edit on 21-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 05:48 PM by shamhat

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

I understand the point you are making, and we agree that taxation and emission caps is not the answer as it penalises not those that produce the mess but the consumer who buys the finished product or the tax payer who will pay fines imposed upon it's government. The only difference in our arguments is that I know that the countries that you cite are never going to agree to it as they have no way of meeting those targets, they are economically incapable of doing so. We on the other hand have no such excuse and could direct more resources to helping others to solve their environmental problems. My point being is, that regardless of race, nationality, species or whatever, we are in this together, we have no choice, this is the only planet we currently have. Given current projections it is likely that millions of people will die within my lifetime as a direct result of eroding reefs. It is both a man-made problem and a natural one. Establishing blame will not prevent the loss of livelihood of the 500 million people who rely on those reefs. According to all the experts this will happen suddenly, and it will more than likely happen in my lifetime. I personally will not get much comfort from the fact that we forced third world countries to pay carbon taxes when their resources were needed elsewhere. But nor do I find much comfort in all the talk that the politicians are expending to make this easy on the Corporations who have been raping this planet with impunity for centuries.

In India, again according to Wikipedia, the government is planning a massive civil engineering initiative to rehouse all the residents and business house in Dhavari slums. They are refusing to legalise any business that is a pollutor. They have set up recycling facilities to meet the problem of waste. It would be very easy to sit here and see the filth that those people are forced to live in and blame them for chucking their rubbish in the lane, but I have a weekly collection. All cities, historically, when they rapidly expand have a refuse problem, some react to it quicker than others, but largely it is only when it affects business and the wealthy does it get sorted. That is what is happening in Mumbai now. It will happen too in Indonesia and everywhere else, the people and governance will adapt.

But all in all, in terms of the Kyoto agreement we agree, it is facile and ineffectively implemented. We differ in that you think it should be enforced on those third world countries who refuse to agree to sign up in the knowledge that they can't meet the targets, while I say the agreement should be scrapped for the waste of time it is and resources directed to tackling the real issues of Climate Change, bio-diversity and environmental toxification.

These are global problems that require a global response and we need to help other less fortunate countries rather than criticise them. Think about it, money is budgeted to tackle this problem, millions if not billions no doubt. Which would you rather, that that budget is spent on conferences, summits and meetings, hotels and resturants, airfares and limos, so that our politicians can argue the same point, or would you rather it went on cleaning up the rubbish and educating those countries in how to process their refuse effectively? Which is most likely to have the most lasting impact do you think? Either way, if like me you are a tax payer, it is your money that is contributing to all this, how would you rather your money was spent?

The G

reply posted on 21-11-2009 @ 06:13 PM by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by shamhat
The only difference in our arguments is that I know that the countries that you cite are never going to agree to it as they have no way of meeting those targets, they are economically incapable of doing so. We on the other hand have no such excuse and could direct more resources to helping others to solve their environmental problems.
.....................

What?..... Are you not aware that the western world is in an economic crisis?... Are you not aware that countries like China are thriving meanwhile the western world is not thriving?....

Indian innovation thriving despite downturn and terrorism

MUMBAI, India – A grueling 20-hour flight from Silicon Valley, India’s megacity of Slumdog Millionaire fame seems far removed from the U.S. economic meltdown. Shoppers and diners fill stores and restaurants in the upscale Phoenix Mills shopping center and the trendy SoMo (South of Bombay) neighborhood.

Ritzy hotels are filled with business people and investors betting on the economic future of India. And nearly three months after the terrorists’ attack that led to 188 deaths here, locals and tourists still flock to the imposing Gateway of India monument and the Taj Mahal Palace and Tower, which is open but surrounded by heavy, armed security who eye every visitor –- especially a foreign journalist shouldering a heavy black laptop bag.

Link

Why China is thriving despite the downturn

ROSS GITTINS

IF YOU want a lead on how the world economy is affecting our economy, take my tip: forget theUnited States and study China.

That's not easy, however, because the Chinese publish much less information about their economy and some of what they do publish isn't reliable.

But it's clear from the Reserve Bank's latest statement on monetary policy that it is putting a lot of effort into monitoring the Chinese economy.

Link

These countries are THRIVING, they have been buying billions of dollars worth of gold, and they have increased to more than doubled their spending in military...

These countries ARE MORE THAN CAPABLE to take care of the mess THEY created in their own nations, but they don't want to. Instead they blame the western world and want to put us down the drain and demand for the western world to pay them more money, and to give them more technology...

China Boosts Military Spending
Senior U.S. Official Presses Beijing to Clarify 'Plans and Intentions'
By Edward Cody
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, March 5, 2007

BEIJING, March 5 -- China announced Sunday that it will increase military spending at a sharply higher rate this year, budgeting a rise of nearly 18 percent, and a senior U.S. official immediately called for clarity on the planned expenditures.

Link

China's Military Budget Reported at $59 Billion
Sharp Buildup Raises Concern in U.S.

By Jill Drew
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, March 5, 2008

BEIJING, March 4 -- China announced Tuesday that it will again sharply increase its military spending this year, budgeting a 17.6 percent rise that is roughly equal to last year's increase.

Disclosure of plans for a $59 billion outlay in 2008 followed a Pentagon report Monday that raised questions about China's rapidly increasing military budget, and came less than three weeks before a presidential election in Taiwan, the self-governed island over which China claims sovereignty.

Link

China admits to building up stockpile of gold
Alfred Cang and Tom Miles, Reuters
Published: Friday, April 24, 2009

SHANGHAI/BEIJING - China revealed on Friday that it had secretly raised its gold reserves by three-quarters since 2003, increasing its holdings to 1,054 tonnes - or a pot worth about US$30.9-billion - and confirming years of speculation it had been buying.

www.financialpost.com...

Why China wants to buy $93 billion worth of gold
2009-03-01 15:15:00

BEIJING: Chinese investors beware! Don’t get trapped in the glitter of gold. In China, investors have been rushing to gold following the crash of global markets.

But, the investment in gold is also riddled with risk and this is a critical time now where investors should be cautious with their gold investment.

Link

Gold soars after India's buying spree

Analysts urge calm as price rockets to all-time high

By JOHN MORRISSY, Canwest News ServiceNovember 4, 2009

Indias purchase of 200 tonnes of gold from the International Monetary Fund sent the precious metals price to a record high yesterday, but fears that the move indicates lurking inflation or is a sign of further weakness in the United States dollar are misplaced, analysts say.

Link

Russia's Central Bank Plans To Continue Buying Gold - Reuters
Tue, Feb 17 2009, 04:45 GMT

Russias Central Bank Plans To Continue Buying Gold - Reuters
Russias gold and foreign exchange reserves were at about $385 billion Feb. 15, compared with $383.5 billion Feb. 6, Reuters reported, citing an interview Monday with Alexei Ulyukayev, first deputy chairman of the Bank of Russia.

Link

These countries are buying billions of dollars worth of gold, and their economies are thriving meanwhile the western world economies are near bankrupt, and you claim these nations don't have the money to clean up their messes?.....

These countries are counting on gullible people like yourself to further put the western world into a deeper depression meanwhile they make more money, meanwhile they redistribute wealth to the nations that are THRIVING at the expense of the western nations that are in an economic depression....

What is happening is nothing short of REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH, and nations like China, Russia, India, etc want to be in control of the new Global Economy.

This is why they keep demanding for the western world to pay for the messes the third world nations created, meanwhile setting up a global economy in which they will be in power.

China Wants a New Global Reserve Currency
Zhou Xiaochuan Asks for an International Currency Other than USD

Calls are getting louder to create a new global reserve currency in the current financial crisis which began in 2007 with the crisis of sub-prime mortgages in the United States.

Link

Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin calls for end of dollar stranglehold

Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin has called for concerted action to break the stranglehold of the US dollar and create a new global structure of regional powers.

Li nk

These countries have been working in weakening the economy of the western world, and more so of the U.S., so they can have more control over the new world economy.

MARCH 24, 2009 China Takes Aim at Dollar

BEIJING -- China called for the creation of a new currency to eventually replace the dollar as the world's standard, proposing a sweeping overhaul of global finance that reflects developing nations' growing unhappiness with the U.S. role in the world economy.

The unusual proposal, made by central bank governor Zhou Xiaochuan in an essay released Monday in Beijing, is part of Chinas increasingly assertive approach to shaping the global response to the financial crisis.

online.wsj.com...

[edit on 21-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply posted on 22-11-2009 @ 10:07 AM by shamhat

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
What?..... Are you not aware that the western world is in an economic crisis?... Are you not aware that countries like China are thriving meanwhile the western world is not thriving?....

Now look at your own words, ‘..the western world is not thriving.’ Not thriving. So we’re not quite starving to death, but we don’t have as much money to spend as we used to, unemployment is high and so is the national debt. That, for us, in the West, is about as critical as any economic crises is likely to get, in my lifetime. We’re not thriving, but nor are we really under serious threat of death or even destitution, life is a little harder than usual and that is about it.

The reason that our countries are suffering from ‘not thriving’ is because employers are not willing to pay even the minimum wage when they can take their business overseas to the third world and exploit the human resources of those countries who’s inhabitants are not protected by labour laws or health and safety executives. By doing this, those employers are able to continue to meet the consumeristic wants of the Western masses at affordable prices. We are, in effect, the architects of our own demise, economically, as long as we insist on the lowest possible price, they will seek new groups of workers to exploit in order to keep those prices low. With our pesky employment laws, pensions and unions, not to mention sanitary working conditions, they just can’t afford to employ us anymore and have to take those jobs to India.

Hence my desire for a globalist approach to all such matters of resources, human or otherwise. If every single human being was afforded and entitled to the same rights, and those rights were protected, employers would have no incentive to relocate to India or anywhere else for that matter.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Ritzy hotels are filled with business people and investors betting on the economic future of India. And nearly three months after the terrorists’ attack that led to 188 deaths here, locals and tourists still flock to the imposing Gateway of India monument and the Taj Mahal Palace and Tower, which is open but surrounded by heavy, armed security who eye every visitor –- especially a foreign journalist shouldering a heavy black laptop bag.

Link

Right now it is India, but that will change. It is currently popular because it is ‘cheap’ it will not remain so forever. Already there is major investment to improve sanitation and housing, India is modernising. With modernisation will come free education and health care, government sponsored welfare, and very soon, those people will be demanding higher wages to support their westernised lifestyle, and organising themselves in order to change legislation to protect those rights. When that happens, the employers will move elsewhere.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
These countries are THRIVING, they have been buying billions of dollars worth of gold, and they have increased to more than doubled their spending in military...

These countries ARE MORE THAN CAPABLE to take care of the mess THEY created in their own nations, but they don't want to. Instead they blame the western world and want to put us down the drain and demand for the western world to pay them more money, and to give them more technology...

Well, yes, technically. I had previously only addressed the matter of third world and developing countries. I do not consider China to be either. And, their inability or unwillingness to ascribe to Kyoto limits is yet another reason why all such talk on the matter is a waste of time and money. If an industrial giant like China will not agree to the terms then any such agreements on the part of other nations is moot. China is thriving because of inward, western investment over the past few decades. It is a resource that has been fully tapped, it has been largely modernised, albeit in a rather totalitarian way, but it has reached it’s peak of sustainable growth. As I have stated before, industrialisation leads to deruralisation, which leads directly to land being left to go fallow and a greater dependency on imported produce.

China is stockpiling gold to ensure it’s ability to purchase imported goods and thereby support their rather excessive population in the event of war. And they are also, as your links clearly demonstrate, actively preparing for that war, gold is essential to such preparations.

Russia too is more concerned with this impending conflict, and so is India to a lesser extent. Without getting too deeply embroiled in geo-politics, my point remains that while I agree with you that there is a disparity in the agreement, I also accept that those differences are unlikely to be resolved due to matters that are far too complex to currently overcome. The agreement should be scrapped and an alternative means of controlling those companies that continue to pollute found. It is a waste of time and money to continue with a programme that is already doomed to failure and that, as you clearly demonstrate, is only going to create resentments and feelings of inequity. These officials will waste the entire budget of millions over the next few years arguing over the same points, and never in a month of Sundays is there the slightest or remotest chance that either Russia and China are going to sign up. There never was, and these people should stop spending our money on pointless exercises.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
These countries are counting on gullible people like yourself to further put the western world into a deeper depression meanwhile they make more money, meanwhile they redistribute wealth to the nations that are THRIVING at the expense of the western nations that are in an economic depression....

These countries are not counting on gullible people like myself at all. They’re not counting on support from anyone, which is why they are all busy taking care of themselves.

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