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Sympothy for Pedophiles?

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posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 03:17 PM
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This may be old news to many of you - as it happened over 2 years ago - but surprisingly i just learned about it!


I did an ATS search and couldn't find any other threads covering it - so i figured what the heck, lets discuss it...maybe i'm missing out on something.

A pedophile gets busted by Dateline: "To Catch a Predator" in Texas, and instead of going into custody, he Kills himself

and now there's a huge uproar of people trying to make a name for themselves riding the back of sympathy for a pedophile.

Even a $105 million dollar lawsuit filed against Dateline.


Now here's my question. If you google around - you may see lots of people talking bad about Dateline and their show to keep internet predators from preying on children.

I think no other source of this is greater than the TCAP wiki page found here


The series has been accused of making news rather than reporting news, blurring the line between being a news organization vs. an agency of law enforcement,[4] and having its host impersonating a police officer.


Like many of you - i have watched this show many times- and every time Chris Hansen is asked "are you a cop" he says "no, im not a cop, we'll get to who i am in a minute"

He never indicates in any way shape or form that he's a cop. The sick bastard drinking the lemonade or eating the cookies only assumes that he's a cop, because they KNOW what they were intending to do - and now there's a man there standing in front of them in a suit.



Among the more prominent critics of the series has been Brian Montopoli of the CBS News Public Eye blog and formerly of the Columbia Journalism Review. Montopoli argues that although Dateline NBC leaves legal punishment up to police and prosecutors, broadcasting the suspects on national television, in the context of exposing criminal behavior, is already a form of punishment which the media has no right to inflict. Montopoli also suggests that NBC News is more concerned about ratings than actually bringing online predators to justice


This is like saying that John doe, who works at Big-Box-Toy-Store USA, and whose Christmas incentive check is based on the end of year sales figures, this is like saying that he has evil intentions because his only goal is to get a bigger incentive check, and NOT to sell more stuff for the owner.

yes, ratings are important to the dateline crew. Thats the business they are in. But catching sick pedophiles online saying explicit things to children isnt being evil. it isnt being deceiving. It's catching them in the act BEFORE they can commit the crime. How can ANYONE stand in opposition of that???


The article goes on to claim that dateline uses entrapment. They say that because the decoy sometimes initiates the talk of sex, that it's some how the "childs" fault that the man ever showed up at the house in the first place.

honestly - you've probably already talked about all of this with your friends and what not, but i'd like to discuss it a little bit with those who wouldn't mind discussing it back.

My question is - how can anyone stand up fro these guys?

Yes - "innocent until proven guilty" but i mean come on. lets get real. They have IP logs. Login names. Hell, a lot of the time, they even have pictures sent to the "child" by the pervert on the other end of the screen.

Then, to top it all off - you have the guy show up at the stage house bringing condoms and liquor.

And thats entrapment?


How far will people go to make a name for themselves?

IMO - this is too far. Pedophiles are one of the worst types of criminals. Anyone who could stand up for one who's been proven to be guilty...just absolutely amazes me.




posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 03:35 PM
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Well to be honest there is a double standard. There was a group of citizens that used this exact concept to root out police corruption. The group set up a house and ran the energy bill really high. Then they placed an anonymous phone call to the police about odd activity. The group used witnesses to say certain things to the police department about observed activity. When it was all said and done, police obtained a warrant and raided the house on suspecting drug activity.

When the police arrived they found the house full of attorney's and cameras recording their actions. What the group uncovered is how police twist witness testimony to indicate there was a crime occurring. The police added untrue statements made by the witnesses, who were in fact private investigators to obtain a warrant. The police illegally pulled records without there ever being enough evidence of a crime being committed. And this was all recorded. The police have said the investigation by citizens was illegal.

Now the show to catch a predator might be a good show, for police to be working in tandem with private parties with fake situations, going to boards that they know pedophiles may in fact be on is targeted enforcement. The only people on that show that I think should be prosecuted are those that attempt to get naked in front of the "child." In my opinion, the show doesn't go far enough to prove a crime. I would be all for this type of detective work if the show went a little further by maybe having the "child" tell the person they were gonna "do it" and ask the pervert to get naked. At that point, the police could rush in and slam the guy. To have a person standing in a kitchen drinking cool aid and say that he would have done something, when there are cameras rolling, does not go far enough in my mind. I do suspect there are people that would go to a child's house to just make sure nobody else shows up to hurt the child. Of course on the show, if you show up you are guilty. I would just like to see them take more steps towards the actual act than simply showing up.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by ExPostFacto
 



To have a person standing in a kitchen drinking cool aid and say that he would have done something, when there are cameras rolling, does not go far enough in my mind


So if a guy drives 2 hours to get to a house where a little 12 year old girl says she's home alone and wants to have sex...you see nothing wrong with that as long as the guy doesn't get naked?

I just cannot grasp that. Im not trying to chastise you - i just don't see how one can give such a giant leap of faith...such a benefit to the pedophile.

There's no reason for that person to have shown up to a house, 2 hours away, thinking there's a 12 year old girl...boy...whatever, home alone, who wants to have sex.

Especially when the chat logs prove that the "child" wanted to have sex...and the adult obliged.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by Snarf
 


I think what ExPostFacto is saying, actually catch these people with their pants down. Literally. I'm not saying the intent is not there when they get busted prior to 'doing' anything, but getting the perp to drop trousers is as close as you can get to actually molesting a child.

This guy either committed suicide because he was guilty or the guilt & embarrassment of THINKING of doing such a heinous act and the public knowing was too much to bear. It's also possible the guy had been molested as a youngster and can't live with the idea of continuing the cycle of torment.

I'm not disagreeing with you. If he's there, then he's thought about going through with it. But being caught with your pants at your ankles is harder to dispute in court.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by Snarf
 


It doesn't go far enough to establish that the person would have actually engaged in the criminal act. I can't tell you how many people I have seen make a threat against another person, in proximity to that other person. And then they walk away, nothing happens and it remains just a threat. That is not to say there was a crime of threatening someone, just that it didn't constitute an action which would constitute a crime.

What To catch a predator focuses on are inchoate crimes. Crimes that do not require an action to prove the crime would have been committed. If a person takes all the necessary steps to commit a crime and there is little doubt they would have committed the crime then a person can be convicted of that crime. That said, I think the show of to catch a predator could take it one step further to meet my satisfaction of showing the link, by somehow having the person undress themselves, or put a condom on or something to link them showing up at a child's house with the intention to commit a criminal act.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by Snarf
 


It's a weird thing that I have mixed feelings on.

On the one hand, there is no child. Ergo there is no victim. No victim, no crime, as far as I figure.

On the other hand, I have no doubt that these people caught would be happily diddling said kid if it were real.

But again, there's no actual victim.

In the end, the big problem is the fact that the show is presented as entertainment. Cop shows like, well, COPS, at least follow cops as they respond to calls, and doesn't set up a stage with actors and sad trombone music. And when you know there are people sitting at home, popcorn in their laps, getting stiff over watching some dude have his life ruined over a crime that has no actual victim... it's just weird.

And were there ever any women trolled up on this program?



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:13 PM
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Fox is right. There was no child, so no sex could have been committed. To persuade him to come over is entrapment.
On the other hand he no doubt would have done it sooner or later when the opportunity arises.

For him to have killed himself he would have been hiding a lot of shame from the incident, since everyone saw his face and he was conned from the start. That part is to me sad.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto
I would be all for this type of detective work if the show went a little further by maybe having the "child" tell the person they were gonna "do it" and ask the pervert to get naked.

That has happened before. I remember at least one guy that was actually naked, waiting for the "child" to come out.

But what it boils down to is intent. If you drive several hours and bring things such as condoms, alcohol, etc., then you are "intending" on doing things with the "child" you were talking to online. It doesn't matter if there was a real child there or not. It's what the perp was intending to do.

"To Catch a Predator" is an excellent program and there should be more houses set up by law enforcement everywhere in the country to catch these people. Because of shows like TCAP, people are starting to get the message that if you prey on a child, you will be caught.





[edit on 18-11-2009 by _BoneZ_]



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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You know, we keep calling these people "sick", but we treat them as evil. True, what they do is evil. But if they're sick, then they deserve our sympathy. That's how you treat sick people - with sympathy, not scorn. If I've got the flu, no one kicks me or tries to set me up to prove I've got it. They say, "take aspirin, drink fluids, and get the hell away from me" (or whatever).

OK, so if these pedophiles are sick, then they deserve our compassion. That does *NOT* mean we most allow them to prey on children. That does NOT mean we must allow them to go unpunished. All it means is that we should recognize their illness and treat them accordingly.

Years ago, people with tuberculosis were quarantined. They were kept out of the public, forced to live in sanitariums in order to keep them from spreading their disease. No one hated these people. No one wanted to put them in jail. They were just sick, represented a threat to the community, and had to be kept away from the community.

Why can't we do something like that with the pedophiles? Take them out of circulation, not as criminals, but as the sick people they are, put them into "sanitariums" of a sort so as to keep them from hurting anyone else. The evidence suggests that predatory pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. OK, so keep these people off the streets, in communities, but stop treating them like criminals.

Or, if you don't like that, then stop calling them "sick". You don't kick sick people. If you insist on kicking these people, then just call them bad, not sick.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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If it wasn't the little fake girl at dateline, it would have been a real one sooner or later. I got picked up for drinking years ago and spent a weekend in the pokie waiting for monday so I could sober up and go home. I spent the weekend with someone who was in there for selling powdered milk to an undercover officer and passing it off as heroin.

read that again....

in jail... for selling powdered milk ...to and undercover cop......


I don't care if Hansen gets a nice big check for this. He deserves it. I have seen everyone of those episodes. I have seen guys come back and get busted twice. I have seen a rabbi show up to have sex with a 12 year old boy. I mean, wtf? If entrapment is necessary to catch some 50 pervert, so be it. I would rather that, than read about him in the paper the next day for having a girl he kidnapped living in his backyard... oh wait... that really happened....

You go Chris Hansen. Lock up the perv!



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by Snarf
 





IMO - this is too far. Pedophiles are one of the worst types of criminals. Anyone who could stand up for one who's been proven to be guilty...just absolutely amazes me

Make no mistake I hate the vermon pedophile. That said I do not believe
you have to break the law to catch criminals. I see this is going on more and more and in reality it's just an easy and fun way for the cops
to make themselves look like they are really doing a great job.
To me it's horse crap. The Cops are out their soliciting and it's not ok.
The cops are making the average citizen the enemy and I want to know why.
You can tell btw they are ready to kill at a peaceful demonstration in Pittsburg. What the hell are they doing .
We have cops on this site that frankly make themselves look like cowards because they won't speak to the questions they are put to.
I'm sorry for the rant.
I guess they think they're going to have same claim in this really neat microchipped world their making possible.
Better go make my next thread now .whoo.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by spliff4020
I would rather that, than read about him in the paper the next day for having a girl he kidnapped living in his backyard... oh wait... that really happened....

You go Chris Hansen. Lock up the perv!

My sentiments exactly! NBC may be getting the ratings for that program, but they're also locking up people that could harm your children.

You can cry foul all you want, but when one of them harms your child, it's a whole different ball game.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 04:47 PM
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First and foremost, this is small disclaimer.

I have NO sympathy for anybody who has, or has intended to harm a child in such a way, invited or not, they should know better and if caught, thrown in jail or worse.

That being said, it's not intrapment. A crime has been commited when these people are caught with Hansen. The crime is soliciting sex to a minor or attempting to do so.

Let's remember they are baited by somebody posing as a child and the people who actually show up are intending to have sex or sexual activity with whoever it was they thought was on the other side.

I'd rather have them caught before than after. Now grant it Dateline is a TV show and ratings are everything in TV. The police working in tandem with private organizations is usually something I would frown upon, but when it comes to getting these people off the streets and into rehabilitation, whatever orm it may be, I am quite happy with that.

~Keeper



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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The strange thing about the case presented, is that the man never went to the house.

"men accused of having explicit online chats with people they think are underage children go to a house to meet them, where TV cameras, host Chris Hansen and police await."

Yes, he talked to a child in an undecent nature in a chat room.
Yes, he may have agreed to go to the house to meet the kid.

But he never showed up. When he did not go to the house, the cameras and police went to his. I guess seeing the police and camera crew, he decided that he was going to kill himself instead of being seen on tv for something like this.

Without trying to assume or speculate about a situation I do not know about .. It is possible that this man would have never taken action against a child. It's possible that he found pleasure in just talking about it. Like a man that calls in to phone sex.

I am in NO WAY trying to make excuses for these people and what their intentions may or may not be with these children.

I think the show went too far by going to this mans house. They knew that if he did not show up at the house, then he could not have been charged with any crime.

Prio to Dateline creating this show, I can't remember at any time of ever hearing about a case of pedophilia where an adult met and solicited/seduced an underage child into having sex and then carrying out the act.
This could be from me not being in the habit of searching for pedophile stories instead of a lack of these stories.

There is another side to this story that people don't seem to focus on. What about the underage kids that are looking for and welcoming a sexual encounter with an adult? There should be focus on these individuals as well, because they are the ones that will more than likely grow up and carry on with this cycle as they become the adult that is looking to have sex with a kid.

There's a good chance that the kids that are looking for sex have already been exposed to it as a victim and their ideas and attitudes about it are going to be damaged.

If there's any hope for stopping this kind of behaviour, the cycle has to be broken and that break needs to happen at the adolescent stage when it is beginning to develop and not at the mature stage where it already has.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 06:05 PM
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Adults have adult responsibilities.

This behaviour is criminal.

I have an idea. If you think you might be ashamed to be seen doing what you are doing to the point you would kill yourself, THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T DO IT.

Good ridance.

[edit on 2009/11/18 by Aeons]



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 06:06 PM
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Let me put this simply. I have no sympathy for pedophiles. Take this case that has been in the news lately of the 5 year old girl from South Carolina named Shaniya.

Her own mother forced her into child prostitution. Some one raped her and them it seems kid napped her and now she is dead! It is so disgusting and absolutely heart wrenching.

How can anyone do such horrible things to a child? how can anybody cause such pain to a child?

After hear stories like this wear a child spent their whole life suffering, being raped only to have her lie ended so soon by a murderous pedophile? No I have zero sympathy for these creeps.

None what so ever and I do not understand how anybody could have sympathy for a person who treats another human being ( especially a child) This way.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 06:10 PM
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She was probably murdered to end the possibility of her being found in the possession of someone and therefore bringing much media to a pedophile ring.

Her death and kidnapping should open up more charges than what is currently on the docket. It should be opening up a pandora's box of pedophiles, whom she was in transit too.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
How can anyone do such horrible things to a child? how can anybody cause such pain to a child?

I constantly ask myself these same questions whenever I see these stories in the news. And there are too many of these stories.

There's absolutely no reason what-so-ever that a child has to suffer or be killed, ever, and especially by pedophiles. It sickens me and angers me every time I think about it.



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by chiron613
Or, if you don't like that, then stop calling them "sick". You don't kick sick people. If you insist on kicking these people, then just call them bad, not sick.


Whilst what you say makes sense, you could apply the same reasoning to most criminals. They are all 'sick' - a faulty product of their environment and upbringing.

So where do we draw the line between sick enough for a sanitarium and not so sick that jail is the answer? Isn't jail the said 'sanitarium' for people that are 'sick'?

Whilst we have moderate treatment against pedophillia it will continue. The easy answer is to stop all pedophiles replicating and passing on their evil to their children and others whether genetic or memetic. The pedophiles 'human rights' should be suspended in favour of childrens human rights for the good of society.

I have often wondered why the laws against pedophillia are so lax (speaking from the UK). All I can think of is that with estimates of 1 in 10 males and 1 in 40 women being this way that TPTB worry about the impact on the economy of losing this many from the workforce and having to incarcerate these sort of numbers.

The most logical answer is extermination, as young as possilbe. I would be first in the queue with my bacon slicer, pliers and blowtorch to assist in this.


[edit on 18/11/2009 by LightFantastic]



posted on Nov, 18 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by chiron613
You know, we keep calling these people "sick", but we treat them as evil. True, what they do is evil. But if they're sick, then they deserve our sympathy. That's how you treat sick people - with sympathy, not scorn.
OK, so if these pedophiles are sick, then they deserve our compassion.


Do pedophiles exercise sympathy and compassion for their prey? No. They need to be treated with therapy and medication. Maybe even castration, albeit extreme and a violation of human rights.


Why can't we do something like that with the pedophiles? Take them out of circulation, not as criminals, but as the sick people they are, put them into "sanitariums" of a sort so as to keep them from hurting anyone else. The evidence suggests that predatory pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. OK, so keep these people off the streets, in communities, but stop treating them like criminals.


We already do this. It's called prison. Their actions are criminal because they know it's wrong (otherwise they wouldn't hide it) and they act on their impulses. It's like saying a person who is psychotic and seduces person X and then kills them shouldn't be treated like a criminal because they are sick. These people cannot be rehabilitated either. Where do we put them? Prison.

The other major problem with this suggestion is that numerous pedophiles aren't even caught because of the shame the victim feels prevents them from reporting it.



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