Six Myths About Christianity

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

...however the Pharisees believed in both an 'intermediate state' and a resurrection.

If one was in a conscious intermediate state, what would be the purpose of a resurrection? To have a body to make burning in hell fire even more horrible?
Souls exist, but they are in a little box somewhere. The good ones are in a box in heaven, and bad ones are in a box in hell. That does not mean necessarily that these are functioning people, just that some sort of essence of who you are exists and is being kept by God, for future use.

Christianity has often been victim to either/or, black or white thinking.

But just because one position seems true does not mean that the opposite position is necessarily false.

The truth often resides in the dialectic tension between the apparent opposites.

I think this is the case with this issue...
...Paul clearly believed that when his flesh died that he would be with Jesus in some sense...
...and that he would be aware in this state.

Paul also clearly spoke of a resurrection of the body...
...not a resusitation but a resurrection...
...we who believe will be transformed into a transphysical body like the that of the resurrected Jesus.

Let me make it clear that this is the experience of 'believers'...
...non-believers may well be in some box or just so much road kill.

Also this understanding was not clearly known before Jesus resurrection...
...Hebrew thought was divided on whether there was a transitional state...
...SDA and JW understanding reflects this pre-resurrection confusion.

Sigismundus:

I think that, for fundamentalist Christians, Jews, and Muslims, we are still simply talking about the Abrahamic Creator deity they all have in common.

Yes, the Muslims call him Allah, but he is still the same omnipotent Creator that Abraham worshipped. The Jews have many names for him, as you've rightly pointed out, but we are still talking about the same concept: The I Am, the eternal and unfathomable Creator of the universe.

The discussion you and I are having is simply about perspective: religious/metaphysical concept vs historical developments.

"God" is just easy and humans are a tad lazy, I guess.

Thanks for the replies. Really interesting.

[edit on 19-11-2009 by Roark]

reply to post by oliveoil

I am not sure you read my replies to these 'myths'...
...I don't necessarily agree with either position.

You would have heard the story of the blind men and the elephant.

Apparent contradicting positions when combined describe the reality.

reply to post by troubleshooter

The truth often resides in the dialectic tension between the apparent opposites.

That's what was in the earlier part of your post. Then, somehow, you come up with a concluding statement that seems to be at odds with the earlier one.

Also this understanding was not clearly known before Jesus resurrection...
...Hebrew thought was divided on whether there was a transitional state...
...SDA and JW understanding reflects this pre-resurrection confusion.

So what do you mean, when it is your argument, it's ok, and if it is someone else's, it's just so much confusion? Well thanks a lot for nothing.


[edit on 19-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

The truth often resides in the dialectic tension between the apparent opposites.

That's what was in the earlier part of your post. Then, somehow, you come up with a concluding statement that seems to be at odds with the earlier one.

Also this understanding was not clearly known before Jesus resurrection...
...Hebrew thought was divided on whether there was a transitional state...
...SDA and JW understanding reflects this pre-resurrection confusion.

So what do you mean, when it is your argument, it's ok, and if it is someone else's, it's just so much confusion? Well thanks a lot for nothing.


[edit on 19-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

Here is a summary...

Hebrews believed Shoel was 'the grave'.

Gentiles believed dead = nothing until Homer's gloomy place with wraiths...
...Plato made it a desirable place for spirits separated from evil matter/flesh.

Egyptians believed in an after life for certain elite only.

Sadducees believed there was no transitional state - no resurrection
Pharisees believed there was a transitional state + resurrection

SDA's and JW's believe in death - nothing - resurrection.

RC's believe death - spirit in heaven - ambivalent about resurrection

Paul believed death - conscious state with Jesus (for believers) - resurrection (2nd Advent).

I tend to agree with Paul.

Ps the word 'confusion' was meant as an objective description not a value judgment.



[edit on 19-11-2009 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by oliveoil


The best way to get rid of Jehovah witnesses at your door stop. Is to simply make them think for themselves. Let them quote one of thier "proof" verses. Then challenge them to read the proof verse in the context of the scriptures. (ie read a paragraph instead of a sentence.) Then watch the hilarity result when you ask them to interpret thier "proof verse" based on the context surrounding the proof verse. They will get pissed at you, scared of you, and run away as fast as they can.

Make them think for themselves, and see how they run.

(They are literally brainwashed to believe that there is no salvation outside of the watch tower society. Their society is a theocratic government based on the will of a few "chosen" elect (governing body), and they tell the laity about Jehovah's will. Salvation only comes about by "working" their way to paradise earth. And if they dare question any of the watchtower teachings, they will be disfellowshiped, and lose any "merit" for salvation they might have achieved.

The governing body alone speaks for Jehovah's will, and the bible can not be understood unless its interpreted based on the watchtowers teachings. The tracts they pass out are the keys to understanding scripture, without that key, there will be no understanding.)

edit:
sorry forgot to add link:

en.wikipedia.org...-124



[edit on 20-11-2009 by msnevil]

reply to post by troubleshooter

SDA's and JW's believe in death - nothing - resurrection.

RC's believe death - spirit in heaven - ambivalent about resurrection

Paul believed death - conscious state with Jesus (for believers) - resurrection (2nd Advent).

I tend to agree with Paul.

Ps the word 'confusion' was meant as an objective description not a value judgment.

I happen to be SDA and I am not confused. If you have an objective comment about my mental state, go ahead and explain it to me.
Paul is a strange person and can not be judged by the same standards as the typical believer. If you can show otherwise, let me know. As far as I know, he never said, "Everything I have said about myself, applies to you, too." He seems to go out of his way to explain how he is different.

reply to post by msnevil

The governing body alone speaks for Jehovah's will, and the bible can not be understood unless its interpreted based on the watchtowers teachings.

Sounds pretty dreary.
Too bad that there a couple of ideas that they have that would be fine if it was not so wrapped up in the weirdness that discredits anyone who tries to espouse something that sounds similar to one of their tenets.

For example, the claim that the trinity is a fourth century invention. Well, the strange version of the trinity that came out of the Council of Nicea was something new, but the Trinity is something that long predated that. Instead of just pointing out the flaws of the Athanasian Creed, they ruin their argument by making ridiculous claims.


[edit on 20-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by maria_stardust

their idea of discussion is to open one of their many guides and repeat verbatim what has been written.

I couldnt agree more. This is so strange. They use their own pamphlets as the main source of information. That 144,000 thing just blows me away.


reply to post bySigismundus

Well...at least the Protestant clergy allowed their own congregations to read the Bible in the English of their day

Hence- the word Jehovah ? Sounds good to me.

Though, I was aware of how we go the name Yahweh, Jehovah always puzzled me. Thanks for the detailed histoy behind it.

reply to post by troubleshooter

I am not sure you read my replies to these 'myths'...
...I don't necessarily agree with either position.

No no no, I wasn't trying to challenge your position. I was just trying to show that they are making false accusations as to what they consider fact. Any person can research their claims as false.
Their name is not even a real name for crying out loud.

reply to post by oliveoil


I am very familiar with this issue. My husband is an acitve JW and recently gave me a copy of it but only because I asked for one. I am a new Christian and attend a non-denominational church which I love. But I am finding this all very difficult to deal with. We have been married for 15 years and he was not active at all even celebrating holidays with me and my family and in the last year and a half he lost his job twice and left one and then he started to go back little by little to the JW meetings and now he does 2 meetings a week and door to door. I don't agree with any of their teachings. We have two kids and he does not agree that they should be celebrating holidays saluting the flag(our daughter is in preschool) etc.
I don't think it is fair that the kids and myself have to stop celebrating holidays etc. Plus we agreed before we had kids that when we did have children that we would let them make their own choices when they were old enough and now he has gone back on his word because he is telling them why he does not celebrate things and tries to read them his book of bible stories. Anyhow I came across this blog and I just had to vent a little.
It's gotten to the point that I had to seek counseling because I can't accept that this is not the man I married 15 year ago. Any advice as to how to talk or show him scriptures from the bible are welcome and galdly appreciated. One more thing the last thing I want is a divorce over this so I just need advice as to how to deal with this
Thanks all

reply to post by lacolora


Cut copy and paste these questions for him

Questions that Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked.

1. If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards? ("They lost roughly three-quarters of the movement between 1925 and 1928, then suffered huge losses after 1975, when the end didn't come as they had implied over and over again," said Jim Penton, an ex-Witness who writes entries on Jehovah's Witnesses for the Encyclopedia Americana.)
2. If the Watchtower organization rejects others calling them "inspired" yet the Watchtower organization does call themselves "God's Spirit-directed Prophet" what is the difference? Is there such a thing as an "uninspired prophet"? See Organization claims inspiration
3. Has the Society ever taught anything scripturally incorrect? See Prophecy Blunders of the Organization
4. Might the Society be teaching anything scripturally incorrect now?
5. Since the Organization has received "new light" regarding the 1914 generation, and completely changed their view on this, does this mean that all the former Jehovah's witnesses who were disfellowshipped years ago for the same view the organization is now teaching will automatically be accepted into fellowship again? Were these Ex-Jw's in fact disfellowshipped for truth and knew things that the governing body did not? See Jw's were disfellowshipped for rejecting generation doctrine
6. Can Jehovah's Witnesses hold and discuss openly with other Jehovah's Witnesses opinions that differ from orthodox Watch Tower doctrine?
7. Can individuals read & understand the Bible alone, or do they need an organization and it's publications to do so? Click here find the answer!
8. How do you prove from the Bible that 1935 was the year for the selection to heaven stopped due to being filled? What is the difference between a Catholic appealing to "what the organization tells him" about December 25 being the date of Jesus’ birthday and a Jw’ appealing to "what the organization tells him" about the date 1935? Is it not hypocritical when you chide the "poor deluded Catholic" that his faith cannot find a Bible passage to support it, when the same goes for you and 1935?
9. How do you know that there were any vacancies, if any, in the 144,000 class if Jesus offered this to first century Christians? How can the organization know the exact number of vacancies today without any records from the first century?
10. Why are you called, "Jehovah's Witnesses" and not "Christians"? Since Jehovah's Witnesses appeal to Isa 43:12; 44:8 for scriptural support that they should be called, "Jehovah's Witnesses" then what was the "new name" prophesied in Isa 62:2? Can't be "Jehovah's Witnesses", for God already used it 20 chapters earlier. Could the new name be "Christian" after our savior "Christ"?
11. Why would the name God gave to His people not be "Christians" since Acts 11:26 says, "The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch"? Why is the name "Jehovah's Witness" found nowhere in the New Testament, if that is God's divine name for His people under the new covenant? Why would God wait almost 2000 years to suddenly start using the name "Jehovah's Witness". Does this mean that first century Christians were not known as Jehovah's Witnesses"?
12. If the name Jehovah is so important, then why is it never used in the entire Greek New Testament? If men edited out the name of God, "YHWH" when they copied the New Testament, as only the Watchtower organization claims, then how can we have any confidence in any of the New Testament? Should we discard the New Testament or the Watchtower organization as unreliable?
13. If the name "Jehovah" is so important, then why does Acts 4:12 say, "There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name [v10 Jesus Christ] under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved"? Would this not have been the logical place for God to have used the name "YHWH"?
14. What is the correct spelling of God's proper name "Yahweh" or "Jehovah"? If Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that "Yahweh" is more proper, why do they misspell it "Jehovah"? If the name of God is so important, then should you not only pronounce it correctly, but spell it correctly too? Is not spelling more important than pronunciation?
15. Since the Jehovah's Witness organization currently rejects most of the teachings of its founder Charles Taze Russell (who was president of the organization from 1879-1916), and since they also reject "Judge" Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as president from 1916 - 1942, how can we be sure that in 25 more years, Jehovah's Witnesses won't also reject the current president, Milton G. Henschel (1992 - present), as they did Russell and Rutherford?
16. What kind of confidence can anyone have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence? This represents about 53% of the time they have existed!
17. Since the Watchtower organization claims "apostolic succession" who was it that "passed the torch of God's Spirit" to C. T. Russel when he founded the organization? What was the name of this individual?
18. In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read?
19. The NWT translates the Greek word "kyrios" as "Jehovah" more than 25 times in the New Testament (Mt 3:3, Lk 2:9, Jn 1:23, Acts 21:14, Rom 12:19, Col 1:10, 1Thess 5:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rev 4:8, etc.). Why is the word "Jehovah" translated when it does not appear in the Greek text? Why is the NWT not consistent in translating kyrios (kurion) as "Jehovah" in Rom 10:9, 1Cor 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2Thess 2:1, and Rev 22:21 (see Gr-Engl Interlinear)?
20. To what was Jesus referring to by the term "this temple" in Jn 2:18- 19? See Jn 2:21.
21. If the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, why does he directly speak and refer to himself as "I" and "me" in Acts 13:2?
22. The NWT translates the Greek words "ego eimi" as "I am" every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as "I have been". What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If "ego eimi" was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?
23. In Rev 22:12-13, Jesus Christ, the one who is "coming quickly", says of himself, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end". In Rev 1:17-18, Jesus, the one who "became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever", refers to himself as the first and the last. Rev 21:6, in speaking of God, says, "...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end ...". God is also referred to as the "first" and the "last" in Isa 44:6 and Isa 48:12. How can this be since by definition of these words there can only be one first and one last?
24. Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?
25. Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".
26. The Watchtower Society teaches that the 144,000 of Rev 7:4 is to be taken literally. If chapter 7 of Revelation is to be taken literally, where then does the Bible say that the 144,000 will come from? (See Rev 7:5- 8).
27. If the soul is the body, why does Jesus make a distinction between the body and the soul in Mt 10:28?
28. The NWT translates Jn 1:1 as "... and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god". How can the Word (Jesus) be "a god" if God says in Deut 32:39, "See now that I-I am he, and there are NO gods together WITH me ..."?
29. Jesus Christ is referred to as "Mighty God" in Isa 9:6 ("For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us ... And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God ..."). Jehovah is referred to as "Mighty God" in Isa 10:20-21. How can this be if there is only one God (1Cor 8:4, Isa 43:10, 44:6)?
30. If Jesus was executed on a torture stake, with both hands together over his head, why does Jn 20:25 say "...Unless I see in his hands the print of the nailS ...", indicating that there was more than one nail used for his hands?
31. Jesus uses the phrase "Truly I say to you, ..." over 50 times in the Bible. In the NWT, the comma is placed after the word "you" every time except in Lk 23:43, where the comma is placed after the word "today". Why is the comma placed after "today" instead of after "you" in this verse? If the translation of this phrase in Lk 23:43 was consistent with the translation of this phrase in all the other verses in which it appears (see concordance), and the comma was placed after the word "you", how would it read?
32. The NWT translates the Greek word "esti" as "is" in almost every instance in the New Testament (Mt 26:18, 38, Mk 14:44, Lk 22:38, etc.). See Greek-English Interlinear. Why does the NWT translate this Greek word as "means" in Mt 26:26-28, Mk 14:22-24, and Lk 22:19? Why the inconsistency in the translation of the word "esti"? If the NWT was consistent and translated the Greek word "esti" as "is" in these verses, what would these verses say?
33. In Jn 20:28, Thomas refers to Jesus in Greek as "Ho kyrios moy kai ho theos moy". This translates literally as "the Lord of me and THE God of me". Why does Jesus, in Jn 20:29, affirm Thomas for having come to this realization? If Jesus really wasn't the Lord and THE God of Thomas, why didn't Jesus correct him for making either a false assumption or a blasphemous statement?
34. If Christ will not have a visible return to earth, then how will he be seen by "ALL the tribes of the earth" (Mt 24:30) and by "EVERY eye" (Rev 1:7) when he returns?
35. If the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, how could he: Be referred to as "he" and "him" in Jn 16:7-8 and Jn 16:13-14; Bear witness - Jn 15:26; Feel hurt - Isa 63:10; Be blasphemed against - Mk 3:29; Say things - Ezek 3:24, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 21:11, Heb10:15-17, Rev 2:7; Desire - Gal 5:17; Be outraged - Heb 10:29; Search -1Cor 2:10; Comfort - Acts 9:31; Be loved - Rom 15:30 ; Be lied to and be God - Acts 5:3-4?
36. What is the meaning of Rev 14:9-11, which says, "... If anyone worships the wild beast ... he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur ... And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever ...". Where could "anyone" be "tormented ... forever and ever"?
37. Jn 1:3 says in reference to Christ, "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence". How could Christ have been a created being if ALL things came into existence through him? If Jesus was a created being, then according to Jn 1:3, Jesus would have had to create himself.
38. If the spirit of a man has no existence apart from the body, why does Stephen just before his death in Acts 7:59, pray to Jesus to "receive my spirit"? How could Jesus receive Stephen's spirit if a man's spirit ceases to exist when the body dies?
39. If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"?
40. If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a heavenly hope, and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is only ONE hope (Eph 4:4), instead of two?
41. If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death (1Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead" (1Pet 4:6)?
42. In Phil 2:9, the NWT inserts the word "other", even though it doesn't appear in the original Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). What is the reason for inserting this word? Is the word "Jehovah" a name? See Ex 6:3, Ps 83:18, and Isa 42:8. How would the verse read if the word "other" had not been inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? See Prov 30:5-6.
43. Heb 9:28, speaking of Christ, says "... and the second time he appears..." How can Christ APPEAR a second time if he will not have a visible return to earth?
44. Amos 4:11 says, "'I caused an overthrow among you people, like God's overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah. And you came to be like a log snatched out of [the] burning; but you did not come back to me,' is the utterance of Jehovah." How can Jehovah speaking in this verse refer to another person as God ("... like GOD'S overthrow of Sodom ...")?
45. In Rev 19:1, where does it say that the "great crowd" will be?
46. If Christians are persecuted for the sake of Jehovah's name, why did Christ tell the first Christians that they would be persecuted for the sake of his (Jesus') name instead of Jehovah's (Mt 24:9, Mk 13:13, Lk 21:12, 17, Jn 15:21, and Acts 9:16)?
47. In Col 1:15-17, the NWT inserts the word "other" 4 times even though it is not in the original Greek (see Gr-Engl interlinear). Why is the word "other" inserted? How would these verses read if the word "other" had not been inserted?
48. In 2Pet 1:1, the NWT inserts the word "the". Why is it inserted? How would the verse read if the word "the" was not inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? (See Prov 30:5-6).
49. In the sermon on the mount, when Jesus was addressing the "great crowd" (Lk 6:17), why did he tell them in Lk 6:22-23, "...your reward is great in heaven ..."?
50. In Mt 1:23, who is Matthew referring to here that has been given the name which means "With Us Is God"?
51. In Rev 14:13, how can the dead be "happy" and find "rest" if there is no conscious awareness after death?
52. If Jesus was executed on a torture stake, with both hands together over his head, instead of on a cross with both hands outstretched, why does Mt 27:37 say that the sign "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" was "posted above his HEAD" instead of being posted above his hands? How could it have been posted above his head if his arms were stretched out over his head?
53. In Lk 4:12, the NWT translates "kyrios" (Gr-lord) as "Jehovah", which makes the verse read "... 'You shall not put Jehovah your God to the test.'" See Gr-Engl Interlinear. Why is kyrios translated as "Jehovah" in this verse? Was the devil, in Lk 4:9-11, putting Jehovah to the test or JESUS to the test?
54. The Bible says that ONLY God is our savior (Hos 13:4, Isa 43:11,45:21, etc.). How can it be then, that the Bible repeatedly says that Jesus Christ is our savior (Lk 2:11, Phil 3:20, Tit 2:13, 3:6, 2Pet 1:1, 2:20, 3:18, etc.)?
55. Referring to Isa 14:9-17, if there is no conscious awareness after death, how could Sheol "... become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in..." (v.9), how could the souls in Sheol "... speak up and say to you..." (v.10-11), how could the souls in Sheol when "...seeing you will gaze even at you; they will give close examination even to you, [saying,] 'Is this the man'..." (v. 16-17), and how would you be aware that this was happening?
56. Heb 3:1 refers to "holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling". In Mk 3:35, Jesus says, "Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother ...". Therefore, according to the Bible, whoever does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if the Watchtower Society teaches that only 144,000 people go to heaven?
57. Heb 11:16, in speaking about some of the faithful people of the Old Testament (Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc.) says, "But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven..." and, "... their God for he has made a city ready for them." The footnote on the word "city" refers to HEAVENLY Jerusalem of Heb 12:22 and Rev 21:2. How can this be since according to the teachings of the Watchtower Society, the only people who will go to heaven are the 144,000 spirit anointed who have been chosen from people who lived after Christ died?
58. Rev 20:10 says, "And the Devil ... the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Where will the devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet be "tormented day and night forever and ever"?
59. In Lk 24:36-39 and in Jn 20:26-27, Jesus showed his disciples the wounds in his body as proof of his resurrection. If Jesus' body had been destroyed by God after he died, how could Jesus show the disciples his body which had the wounds in his hands, feet, and side and claim that he is not just a spirit, "because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have" (Lk 24:39)?
60. If Christ was created by God and was the wisdom of God (Prov 8:1-4, 12, 22-31), then before Jesus would have been created, God would have had to have been without wisdom. How is it possible that God could have ever been without wisdom?
61. Rev 7:11 says that "before the throne" is in heaven where "all the angels were standing". Rev 14:2-3 says "And I heard a sound out of heaven ... And they were singing as if a new song before the throne ...". Rev 7:9 says, "... look, a great crowd ... standing before the throne...". Rev 7:14-15 says, "...There are the ones that come out of the great tribulation ... That is why they are before the throne of God ...". Therefore, if "before the throne " means in heaven (Rev 7:11, 14:2-3), and the "great crowd" is "before the throne" (Rev 7:9, 7:14-15), where does that mean that the great crowd will be?
62. If Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, how can Mt 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus could return with himself?
63. In Lk 20:37-38, how could Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob be "all living to him (God)", since they all died hundreds of years before Jesus said this?
64. If the soul dies when the body dies, how could the "souls" of Rev 6:9- 11, who were of those who had been "slaughtered" (i.e., killed), cry out "with a loud voice, saying: 'Until when Sovereign Lord ..."?
65. In Mt 28:19, Jesus tells his disciples to baptize "people of all the nations ...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit". Why would the disciples be instructed to baptize in the name of anybody or anything who was not God? Do Jehovah's Witnesses follow the command of Jesus and baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit"?
66. If the human soul IS the person, how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1Kings 17:21)?
67. The Watchtower Society teaches that the earth will never be destroyed or depopulated. How can it be, then, that God says in Isa 51:6, "... the earth itself will wear out, and its inhabitants will die like a mere gnat ...", and that Jesus says in Mt 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away...", and that John says in Rev 21:1 that he saw "... a new heaven and a NEW earth, for the former heaven and the FORMER earth had passed away, and the sea is no more."?
68. Referring to Lk 12:4-5, what would be left of a person after they were killed that could be thrown into Gehenna?
69. Who or what does the spirit of Christ (Phil 1:19, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9) refer to? In Gal 4:6, how is it possible that the spirit of Christ could come into our hearts? How is it possible that the spirit of CHRIST could reside in someone? If what the Watchtower Society teaches is true, how could Paul make this statement if Christ was a spirit person residing in heaven?
70. In Jn 8:56, Jesus says, "Abraham your father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced". Since Abraham died hundreds of years before Jesus said this, how could Jesus say that Abraham "saw it and rejoiced", if there is no conscious awareness after death?
71. In Jn 6:51, Jesus says that a person must eat "of this bread" in order to "live forever", and that "the bread that I give IS my flesh". In Jn 6:63, Jesus says "... Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." In Jn 6:54-55, Jesus says, "He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life..." and "... for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." Do you partake of the flesh of Christ , as Jesus commanded, in order to have life in yourself and in order to live forever?
72. Every true Christian would agree that we should follow the commands of God. In Mk 9:7, God the Father commands us to listen to Jesus. Do you follow this command and listen to Jesus? After all, Jesus died for your personal sins (1Jn 2:2, 1Pet 2:24). Jesus tells us to go directly to him (Mt 11:28-30), and the Father commanded us to listen to Jesus. Why? Because JESUS gives us everlasting life (Jn 10:28), and so that JESUS will enter our house and be with us and give us the right to sit on his throne (Rev 3:20- 21). Do you pray to Jesus as Paul and the early Christians did (1Cor 1:2)? Do you partake of the flesh of Christ as Jesus commanded (Jn 6:51)? If not, then are you following the command of the Father who said "Listen to him"?
www.bible.ca...

Originally posted by Seiko
I had a very strange conversation with some jehovah witnesses regarding whether women should be preachers.

We didn't have the same understanding of the bible, but we all used the same one. I never heard them say the bible was not the word of God.

'

That's the one thing I disagree with most with some "Christians" who carry around this idea that women are second class citizens and God doesn't treat them equally.

I don't see anything wrong with a woman spiritual leader. Some "Christians" would say that it is wrong. We all have different talents. What I understand from the bible is this:

1. Treat people equally and fairly.
2. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
3. While no one is good enough nor will they ever be good enough to get into heaven by their deeds, we are all redeemed through the covenant with Jesus Christ.

reply to post by lacolora
It could be that he is depressed and thinks God is punishing him for straying away from his faith. Going door to door could be a way of getting right with God.
My advice would be to have him tell your children that what he makes as statements of belief are his own opinions and that they are not being forced to accept them. He might get better if he feels more secure. Probably getting defensive towards him would make him more insecure. You might want to claim your right of equal time, as in, every time he teaches the kids some JW stuff, give them the version that makes sense to you, and rely on them to eventually figure it out on their own. So instead of getting into an argument with him, just do some of your own teaching. If you present the positive aspects of Christianity, they will see the dreariness of his version and will make the right choice.

the OP visit by the three ladies...who were exposing the real Christianity...
are only partially correct, here's another point that receives little discussion or knowedge in the community of the faithful
(except perhaps the Jesuits and individually enlightened clergy...)



metahistory.org...

Wasson and Company

~The Entheogenic Theory of Religion~

Wasson and Company is a section of Psychonautics dedicated to research and evaluation on the controversial topic of the entheogenic theory of religion: that is, the claim that the religious experience of the human species originated in altered states induced by the ingestion of sacred medicine plants such as the amanita muscaria mushroom or other psychoactive fungi. [...]

here's a qualifier:

First objection: I draw a strong distinction between religious experience and religion as such, i.e., dogma, hierarchy, institution, ritual and regalia. I reject the claim (expounded by Benny Shannon) that authoritarian religious dogmas such as the Ten Commandments could have been derived from visionary states induced by sacred plants. Consistent with this stance, I reject the notion that genuine visionary revelations given by plant-teachers became corrupted or co-opted into dogmatism and blind beliefs. I insist that the corruption of paternal/authoritarian religion was present from its inception, a calculated and deliberate strategy for behavioral control

Page still being developed...and i mean a short, 15 paragraph 'page'


~!~

Originally posted by paranoiaFTW
I used to be a Jehovah's Witness and it seems like the most logical religion to me. When you die you stay dead and you feel nothing and think nothing untill judgment day. There is no hell because the devil wouldn't punish you for sinning/being bad and god won't punish you because he is all loving.

Anyways, I'm just stating what I was taught about that. I am now an agnostic leaning towards atheist.

I have Seventh-day Adventist relatives and they hold the same view as JW's.

You've been misinformed. The dead are asleep (as per the Bible). On what is called the Judgment Day the wicked will be raised back to life to be shown why they were not saved and then (as per the Bible, Rev. 20:9) God will rain down fire out of heaven destroying all the wicked and Satan and his angels.

i agree with your six myths......it is ridickilus that they have their own translated bible but what big differnence is their between the bible and thiers?

reply to post by hill 10
Not that much, anymore, but quite a bit, back in the day, when it first came out. The KJV was mainly based on the translation of Erasmus, who reinvented the art of collecting the old Greek texts and doing new translations, instead of taking the word of the old translators of the Dark Ages, who really didn't know what they were doing.
The JW bible was based on the collected texts of Westcott and Hort, who tossed out what Erasmus thought were good and reliable versions of the Greek texts, and brought together whatever they thought would serve their own purpose, which was mainly to wreck Christianity as they knew it.
Apparently the leadership of the JW religion had something in common with Westcott and Hort, and adopted their version, being in agreement that Jesus' status should be taken down a notch.

I know I'm just being an a-hole here but in a bit of a crappy mood so...

They say they are "Jehova's Witnesses" yet they aren't even spelling Jehova correctly. It should be Yehova at least but it has always, for thousands of years, been spelled YHVH, the tetragrammaton. If they truly followed the god they claim to they wouldn't even speak the name, this is why most Bibles don't mention "Jehova" but say "God" "lord" etc.

I always find it funny that many of the most "devoutly religious" people are the ones being the most blindly led to their own destruction because they're leaders have taught them that knowledge is sinful.

The OP claims to have felt sadness on behalf of the old ladies upon their exit, but I feel sadness for all three of you. What we have here is three people conducting a rant of silliness amongst themselves as to whose meaning of the Bible is more correct. If you all had done your homework, you would know already that the Bible is nothing more than the greatest collection of astrological, astronomical stories of all time. It is simply stories based on astrology, plain and simple. To add insult to injury to those today who are still fooled by this, it was the intentions of the authorities at the time to hide the secret study of the heavens from the commoners by placing in the Bible that such study was evil and not to be practiced. The study of the heavens, sun, moon, stars, etc was replaced with people and a combination of other faiths and beliefs at the time to produce the religions of today. The wool was pulled over your heads so bad, that being "owned" is an absolute understatement for sure. Please do your homework, as this foolishness has to come to an end already. This is pure astrology, and you would know this if you truly searched your religious roots. I have done my homework that's why I know you haven't done yours yet.