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Six Myths About Christianity

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posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 12:23 AM
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I used to be a Jehovah's Witness and it seems like the most logical religion to me. When you die you stay dead and you feel nothing and think nothing untill judgment day. There is no hell because the devil wouldn't punish you for sinning/being bad and god won't punish you because he is all loving.

Anyways, I'm just stating what I was taught about that. I am now an agnostic leaning towards atheist.




posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 01:20 AM
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Originally posted by paranoiaFTW
I used to be a Jehovah's Witness and it seems like the most logical religion to me. When you die you stay dead and you feel nothing and think nothing untill judgment day. There is no hell because the devil wouldn't punish you for sinning/being bad and god won't punish you because he is all loving.

Anyways, I'm just stating what I was taught about that. I am now an agnostic leaning towards atheist.

I have Seventh-day Adventist relatives and they hold the same view as JW's.

I don't have the final answers on the 'State of the Dead' yet...
...but this is were I am so far.

Consider the following reference...

"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both." Acts 23:8

The Sadducees actually did believe in angels and spirits...
...they were fundamental to the formation of their beliefs...
...what the Sadducees did not believe in was that humans become angels or spirits post-mortem.

In other words the Sadducees did not believe in an 'intermediate state' as well as not believing in a resurrection...
...however the Pharisees believed in both an 'intermediate state' and a resurrection.

I find this interesting for a couple of reasons...

1. The 'plain reading' of the surface text or even the Greek does not tell you this...
...you have to refer to info outside the NT manuscripts about the Sadducees to know.

2. The Sadducees and Parisees were in the main stream of second temple Judaism, drenched in first century Rabbinical thought but they still could not agree on the reality of an 'intermediate state' or 'resurrection'.

So what does this tell us about what the Hebrews understood their scriptures said about the 'intermediate state' issue...
...it seems there was a range of ideas much as there is now.

If there had been a clear knowledge of such things the evidence was obviously not strong enough to resolve the issue...
...using the Old Testament scriptures.

However, I do think that an open minded read of Paul and a proper understanding of Jesus resurrection can suggest a solution.

Paul was a Pharisee and it is therefore reasonable to assume that Paul also believed in an 'intermediate state'...
...and still held to this position even after coming to know the Gospel of Jesus.

This is what I hear Paul saying in the following references...

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. Philippians 1:23-24

There is certainly no sense in his words that he expected to be leaving to be in an unconscious state until the final resurrection.

I also don't detect any sense of an 'unconscious' lag in his following reference...

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:" 2 Corinthians 5:1-6

Let me make this clear...
...I don't believe these text support 'the immortality of the soul'...
...scripture tells us "God alone is immortal" 1 Tim 6:15-16...
...and that 'life and immortality are available through the Gospel' 2 Tim 1:10...

But it does clearly describes a conscious state between death and final resurrection for all who believe the Gospel.



[edit on 19-11-2009 by troubleshooter]



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 06:32 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 

...however the Pharisees believed in both an 'intermediate state' and a resurrection.
If one was in a conscious intermediate state, what would be the purpose of a resurrection? To have a body to make burning in hell fire even more horrible?
Souls exist, but they are in a little box somewhere. The good ones are in a box in heaven, and bad ones are in a box in hell. That does not mean necessarily that these are functioning people, just that some sort of essence of who you are exists and is being kept by God, for future use.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 07:28 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 


Sorry I take time replying. I only have limited access.

These so called facts just don't add up.


Myth 1 Fact 1) At death a person ceases to exist.


JW state this as fact, But in Luke 16 the Bible describes what happens when we die. The Rich man and Lazarus both died and their spirits were carried away by the angels.They were fully conscious.
1 Cor 15:54 says that all the dead,good and bad will be made immortal,after which they will either enter heaven or suffer eternal torment.


Myth 2 Fact 2) God does not punish people in hell.


Their are many verses to prove this wrong I will only give one.The rich man in Hell.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


Myth 3 Fact 3) The majority of good people will live forever on earth.


Nowhere in the Bible does does it say this.


Myth 4 Fact 4) The trinitarian dogma is a late fourth-century invention


The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7 ) Can be traced back to old Latin versions way before the fourth-century.



Myth 5 Fact 5 )Mary was the mother of the son of god not of god himself.


Jesus was God. There is overwhelming evidence to support this.
1 john 5:7 is just one example. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


Myth 6 Fact 6) God does not approve of the use of images and icons.

These were Gods laws to the Israelites, However, the new covenant supersedes the old.
I don't find anything wrong in lets say a cross and what it represents.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 08:27 AM
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hmm... From what iv heard from varying different denominations of christianity its seems staringly obvious that it is ALL myth. Yet people will always believe the story, because they want to, more than anything.

Can i just ask one question to anyone who has the answer? Why would jesus' death mean that our sins are forgiven?
God sends his 'son' to earth to teach us, and we horribly murder him... Why would this please God? So much so that he decides to forgive hereditry sin that has been in place since, near enough, the dawn of the world... It makes no sense at all.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by alpha-erectus
Can i just ask one question to anyone who has the answer? Why would jesus' death mean that our sins are forgiven?
God sends his 'son' to earth to teach us, and we horribly murder him... Why would this please God? So much so that he decides to forgive hereditry sin that has been in place since, near enough, the dawn of the world... It makes no sense at all.
At a minimum, it was God dying by proxy. God can not die himself, so His son does, as a man. The son is very dear to God and He loves him as Himself. Satan believes that he has the right to be treated at least equally with the son. Satan sinned and is being held for trial, which will result in his death. The humans of this planet, with Satan's help, have also sinned. Satan stands as the accuser of the people, not allowing for their sins to be forgotten. This is seen by Satan as a way to show how he is not alone in his rebellion. Satan would argue that if people are forgiven, then so should he. God had already stated His intention to do so. This caused Satan to further object by claiming that if it was God's own son who was on trial, God would be forced to have to bend the rules enough for him to get off without punishment. God, in the person of the son, took on the guilt of the people, and then was killed, not just by the hand of the soldiers, but by heavenly justice. God allowing this to happen is enough evidence to insure the defeat of Satan and breaks his power for making demands.
The conclusion of all this is coming, with the actions to soon happen, that will take the guilt that Jesus transferred from us to himself, and put it on the person who is the originator of sin, Satan. That will be the final end to sin and death and hell.


[edit on 19-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 10:54 AM
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I never have problems with JW's, I just say I believe Jesus is the Son of God incarnate and they say, "Have a nice day..."



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by paranoiaFTW
I used to be a Jehovah's Witness and it seems like the most logical religion to me. When you die you stay dead and you feel nothing and think nothing untill judgment day. There is no hell because the devil wouldn't punish you for sinning/being bad and god won't punish you because he is all loving.

Anyways, I'm just stating what I was taught about that. I am now an agnostic leaning towards atheist.



You should never make a decision based on any religion no matter how good it may seem. base it on what Jesus said and decide on that because if you can't find it in your heart to love and to forgive people than Christianity is not for you. God asks of man but three important things, maybe four. Love and forgive others. Be sorry for doing wrong when you know you did. And accept what Jesus did for you on the cross so that you can live and not have to account for all the wrong you were sorry for anyway. That's the Christian life.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


Myth 2 Fact 2) God does not punish people in hell.

Their are many verses to prove this wrong I will only give one.The rich man in Hell.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
The torment was mental, knowing there was an impassable gulf between him and where he wanted to be.
The parable seems to actually disprove the existence of the place because there is no practical reason for it, seeing how it did not help the rich man, or his family members who he would have liked to have warned. The point of the story being that people are going to do whatever they are going to do, regardless of what lies on the other side of death.


[edit on 19-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


That sounds like quite an ecounter oliveoil. I could remember a couple very good encounters with the watchtower people. You have to hand it to them for taking the time to try to save people though. Even if what they believe is far from the truth.

They came to my house one time and told me all about how the world as we know it is about to end and that we can look forward to a heaven right here on earth. I asked them about the 144,000 thing and they tried to weasel around it. I then used scripture to see what effect it had on these people.


Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


They promptly retreated. Use a memorized passage of scripture next time. Remember when Jesus was tempted in the desert? He used scripture for every answer. It works. If they seem excited by the possibilities that your passage inspires then continue talking with them. If they retreat, you know what's up.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 12:19 PM
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Hi Groupies---

Why does everyone on this thread use the term GOD the whole time, as if there were only one? If by GOD you mean YHWH then say "Yahweh, the clan god of post-Exilic Yisro'el" --

Saying GOD and meaning ALWAYS 'the post-Exilic clan god of Yisro'el" all the time would be like American Republicans referring to THE PRESIDENT and ALWAYS referring to Abraham Lincoln ONLY and every time, (since he was the first 'Republican party' president (as opposed to the Democrat-Republican party of the earlier 19th century...)

Is it really SO HARD to use Yahweh (or even YHWH) when referring to a specific GOD? Using GOD the way it is bandied about on these threads seems to indicate that only the clan god of the Jews exists, and no other gods (or people !) count.

Just as other people exist on this planet, other gods also are worshipped on this planet...

Using 'YHWH / Yahweh' helps clarify the issue a bit, at least for me..unless I am missing something...!!



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 

Hey Sig,
Every time I use Yahweh I feel that It may or may not be the correct name that people want to refer to.
Most people on ATS use the word Jehovah.
Is Jehovah even a word?
I guess the reason I use the term God is because I don't want to offend anyone and by doing so I'm probably offending Yahweh himself.

But I mean well.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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Hi Oliveil--

Well, when speaking about the clan god of the bible (a post exilic primarily Yahwistic set of documents), I see no harm in referring to that specific clan god of the Jews as 'YHWH' .

Jehovah was a fake construct of JHVH as consonants and the VOWELS of EDONAI ('my Lord')

JHVH - consonants of YHWH
eoa - vowels of edonai

J + e + H + o + V + a+ H = a composite (=fake) name.

which was used to remind the Russian Masoretes in the 10th centiry AD (who added the vowels to their own un-vowelled-unpointed version of the hebrew scriptures which came to be known as the Masoretic text i.e. the MT) to speak outoud the pronunciation: EDONAI : whenever they came across YHWH in their pointed Text, since YHWH as Yahweh was forbidden for all except the High priest ever to utter outloud (to protect YHWH being used in magic spells after the exile, apparently)

I don't think the Jehovah-witnesses understand the hisory of the name. The Greek LXX Septuaginta (which used vowells in the Greek version of BCE 200) pronounced the name something like 'Yahwuh' owing to the fact that Greek letters do not always conform neatly to Hebrew letters or pronunciation.

It's the problem inherent in translating any one language into another accurately---one of the thorniest issues for Christians whose alleged founder spoke 1st century Galilean Aramaic, but whose words placed into his mouth in the canonical council approved 4 Greek gospels are 1st century Koine Greek---one full step removed from the original language and historical setting, alas !

[edit on 19-11-2009 by Sigismundus]



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


The Jehovah Witnesses defend this name by quoting these King James verses

Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exodus 17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:

Judges 6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

If Jehovah is not a real name, why is it in my Bible?



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 01:22 PM
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[

[edit on 19-11-2009 by oliveoil]



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 01:34 PM
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I have studied with JW in the past, and I can only say that the experience was disconcerting at best. It is nearly impossible to discuss theological issues with them because their idea of discussion is to open one of their many guides and repeat verbatim what has been written. Heaven forbid a person attempt to expand or even question a certain stance. If you do, you're gently nudged to the official appropriate passage and urged not to stray from the dictum.

As far as these alleged myths go, JW don't tend to sweat the small stuff because they firmly believe they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for a chosen few among their elders. The faithful JW are the meek that will inherit the Earth at the end of time. And, yes, they are certain as to when the end will come, even if they have to push the date back a time or three.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 04:20 PM
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Hi Oliveil--

There were VERY good reasons why 17th century Protestants in England decided against naming the clan god of Israel as YAHWEH.

For one thing, before we get going, the KJV King James Bible (which was re-printed with hundreds of print-corrections more than 4 times in the first few years of its existence) ONLY used the pointed vowelled Masoretic text of the OT as a source for their English translation bible text for the OT (they did not use the RomanC Catholic version of the OT called the Latin Vulgate which was a translation of the Greek OT LXX Septaginta by Jerome, which is based on the LXX-Hebrew Unpointed Vorglag underlay (which was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran in 1946) which is at least 1,000 years older than the Leningrad Codex of the MT) and this Masoretic text is the version that uses the vowels of EDONAI underneath their Hebrew unpointed unvowelled consonantal versioin of their text.

The LXX greek for Exodus chapter three clearly says 'Yahwuh' not Jehovah as the Masoretic symbolically-fake pointing of YHWH has it.

Most of the time, the KJV opts to read:

THE LORD every time it comes to a passage using YHWH

And the KJV used 'GOD' every time it comes to a passage using the word ELOHIM.

When it came to a passsage that read 'YHWH ELOHIM' in the Hebrew MT (for example in the D strand of the Torah, or in the book of Jeremiah, which were written by the school of Baruch in c. BCE 530) the KJV panel translated the phrase in 17th century English as THE LORD GOD.

But THE LORD GOD never occurs in the hebrew text: It says: YHWH-ELOHIM.

All of these words (LORD, GOD, THE LORD GOD) are fake constructs when brought into 17th century English - fake but of course useful for the Protestant clergy who NEVER EVER wanted ANY of their flock to name the actual name of the god of Israel other than to call him LORD or GOD (as if there was ONLY ONE !)

Kind of sneaky of them NOT to explain to their poor ignorant flocks (of sheeple) that they were worshipping a middle eastern clan god with a funny name (Yah-weh)..so using THE LORD and GOD and THE LORD GOD sounded soooooo Universal and appealing (by comparison) ...don't forget they also depended on large numbers of believers (as did the state who wanted more sheeple NOT to question anything about the status quo if possible) who were unquestioningly filling their offering plates every week (along with state subsidies, of course !) to keep them in business just like the Catholic Bank...er Church... does to this day.

Well...at least the Protestant clergy allowed their own congregations to read the Bible in the English of their day, unlike the Roman Catholic clergy who did not allow THEIR parishoners to read the Bible in English or any modern language translations for themselves etc.)

Clear as mud?



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 04:44 PM
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The Jehovah's Witnesses are an aberration from mainstream Christianity, and differ on some utterly fundamental articles of faith. They have even changed the text of the Bible to support their differing doctrine.

They certainly do not speak for Christianity as a whole.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by Sigismundus
Hi Groupies---

Why does everyone on this thread use the term GOD the whole time, as if there were only one? If by GOD you mean YHWH then say "Yahweh, the clan god of post-Exilic Yisro'el" --

Saying GOD and meaning ALWAYS 'the post-Exilic clan god of Yisro'el" all the time would be like American Republicans referring to THE PRESIDENT and ALWAYS referring to Abraham Lincoln ONLY and every time, (since he was the first 'Republican party' president (as opposed to the Democrat-Republican party of the earlier 19th century...)

Is it really SO HARD to use Yahweh (or even YHWH) when referring to a specific GOD? Using GOD the way it is bandied about on these threads seems to indicate that only the clan god of the Jews exists, and no other gods (or people !) count.

Just as other people exist on this planet, other gods also are worshipped on this planet...

Using 'YHWH / Yahweh' helps clarify the issue a bit, at least for me..unless I am missing something...!!



Well YHWH is also the creator god of the Christians, and he is also the Abrahamic deity that Islam claims as its omnipotent Lord.

So that's 3 of the largest religions on earth covered.

Buddhists tend not to discuss "God" per se, from a personal perspective. And the Hindus will usually refer to a god by name. So that's them covered.

I think it's safe to say that most people on these forums (a lot of whom come from traditionally Christian, Jewish or Muslim countries or backgrounds) know who we're talking about when we refer to "God"...

I do understand your point, though.



posted on Nov, 19 2009 @ 05:12 PM
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Hi Roark--

So what you're saying is...basically...when the Americans have IN GOD WE TRUST stamped on their money what they REALLY mean is :

IN YAHWEH THE CLAN GOD OF ISRAEL WE TRUST

in other words, wink wink, we all know that it's YHWH the god of the jews the Americans (and Christians worldwide) actulaly worship , we 'just don't want to say it very loudly...'

Interestingly the KORAN uses the name: ALLAH : and not YHWH to refer to the omnipotent male deity the Muslims worship, derivative no doubt from the same root that brought us the different names of the Canaanite gods found in the bible, viz. EL, EL ELYON, EL-SHADDAI, ELOAH, and ELOHIM that were all translated, well...GOD. e.g. GOD, GOD ALMIGHTY, THE MOST HIGH GOD, etc. when originally these were ALL separate clan gods with separate priesthoods before the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions of Eretz Yisro'el.

When you dig down into the weeds of the various Hebrew Bibles, you find all sorts of different Canaanite clan gods that (over time) sort of got all mashed together into one big fat clan god (YHWH) after the Babylonian Exile (BCE 587 - 531) at a time when even the infamous 'wife of YHWH' (Asherah) got thrown out on her fertile can and variously demonised by all those Yahwistic editors who left the texts dring the time of Ezra the scribe (using a brand new aleph-bet too !) stripped of their originally separate origins...

Still...Christians today should (IMHO) be taught a little about the roots of the actual clan god they are actually praying to when they do go down on their knees...

Unless I am really missing something !





[edit on 19-11-2009 by Sigismundus]



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