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Contradiction? Salvation by faith or works?

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posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by PSUSA
Well said. I know exactly what you are writing about. I disagree with you about Paul, but the rest I understand. I dont see Paul as the "prince of this world" and really don't understand the problem some have with Paul. But maybe you're right.


I kind of see 2 Pauls. There is Paul the christian Bible writer, and then there is Paul the person.

I do not in anyway make judgment on Paul the person. I am not in anyway in position to do such a thing, even with all the writings of Paul, it's still only a small percent of Paul.

For all I know, these letters written by Paul happened in a time when he was learning.

For all I know, he could have been using terminology that was specific for the person who was receiving the letter, and writing in a way that person would understand, but others wouldn't.

For all I know, Paul could have written 1000 more letters, none of which made it into the bible. 1000's of letters that could have shown him in a completely different light.

Maybe he would be terrified to know that his letters were to be used as the word of god later. Maybe he was just misunderstood some things, and then those misunderstandings were selected as a way to mislead people. We don't know.

For all I know, they could be forgeries.

I can't in anyway judge Paul the person.

But what I am talking about is what is attributed to Paul. The writings that did make it into the bible and so forth. And why those letters were selected into the bible by the politicians, and why they have been passed down through each branch of Christianity, and how in the end Paul's word win's out over what Jesus says etc.

Those letters were chosen by those politicians for a reason.

So when I say "Paul", I am more referring to the general idea of Paul, rather than the person himself.




posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 



those letters were selected into the bible by the politicians

Those letters were chosen by those politicians for a reason.


I'm just wondering who do you think selected Paul's letters, and for what reason do you think they had?



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
I get what your saying but this seems a little to vague. Paul is unsure he has the Holy Ghost.

1 Corrinthians 7:40 Paul is saying And I THINK I also have the Spirit of God.


Well, I am pretty sure that he did not because he talks about adoption and things like that. To me, that says he is not born of spirit.

Jesus talks about that event in John 14:20. He mentions that "on that day" for a reason. It's a specific event and day that you will remember, and on that day you know the father is within you.

Now I'm not saying it's not possible that someone is born of spirit by being baptized in water. But I will say that it is not the act in itself that does it.

But I can say from my experience, nothing identified itself to me as "the holy spirit". All such experiences were completely devoid of any such labels. It's not like something appears and says - I am the holy spirit, and then proceeds to read the bible to you. For me, it was just like this period of time where all I desired to understand was given to me. I only recognize it now as the "holy spirit" because I recognize it in function of what I experienced. I never "seen" anything in terms of the holy spirit with eyes or a vision.

I gained understanding about tons of things. Here are 2 posts that go into detail about creation and the father/son relationship.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So I don't exactly find fault in not knowing if something was the "holy spirit". If I hadn't read the bible and seen things like John 14:26, I'd be like - Holy Spirit? Never heard of it.

Also, there is the "kid effect". When you are a kid, and you got a new toy, it was exciting and so much fun. Over time, it became less and less fun. Well, when I first started to come into understanding, for like the first month it was extremely strong. I had so many questions and so forth, and the more I learned the more questions it brought. But now it's years later, and the questions and things are much less frequent. As such, it can feel as if it is not as "strong" as it once was because there is less to learn or the questions don't come as quick etc. I only had my vision once, and never experienced anything like it since. Not like it's an everyday thing you know? Maybe he had the same thing, and felt as if he had lost it as a result?

Don't know, just what I could see as possible explanations.



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by badmedia
 



those letters were selected into the bible by the politicians

Those letters were chosen by those politicians for a reason.


I'm just wondering who do you think selected Paul's letters, and for what reason do you think they had?


Well, they were ultimately voted on, and then kept by the church as well.

The reason it is done is because it returns the pharisees back into the seat of Moses, where as Jesus had "dethroned" them. The Romans turned to Christianity because it was picking up so much steam.

This is why I mentioned politics earlier. Things that happen are not as they seem. In politics, you want to control the information. So, what you do is embrace those things you are actually against, and then you can control the information and the way it is presented etc.

For example, take a PR nightmare. Politician guy goes out and gets a DUI. If at all possible, that Politicians PR team would want to or would try to announce the issue themselves before the DUI is announced otherwise. By doing that, it allows them to control and influence the direction of the events that come after.

Here is a thread I created about wolves in sheeps clothing.
Sheeps clothing = symbolism and idols.

It goes into the manipulations and so forth. How they hide behind things, and work behind the scenes to do their dirty work etc.

It was selected because it restored/legitimized power to the authorities of this world(Romans of that time).



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by pthena
 


I am very much bound to the law. Meaning, I believe the commandments must be followed. Jesus doesn't change the laws.


The problem was, nobody understood the commandments. Because they did not understand, the people were unable to determine the difference between gods law, and the laws and traditions of men. They had no clue the true spirit of things.



So it's not that Jesus gets rid of the law, or that he changes the laws. He doesn't, he clarifies and shows people what is god's law and what were the laws of men(society).
Wisdom is to take the knowledge, experiences and understandings and then make the correct choice.
As the reason why you were put on this earth in the first place was because you were capable of evil and knowing evil, the only way back out is to make the correct choice and do not do evil. You can think of it as a school
Jesus shows you the path and way to do that.

Also, I have to mention - Please be careful that I do not deceive you. I am not trying to do so by any means, however maybe I am not doing the best job explaining myself and so forth. In the end, I am of no authority and nothing I say should be accepted at all. I would rather shut up than deceive someone.

It makes me nervous and uncomfortable if people praise or thank me in any manner to be honest. All I can think is - omg, what have I done wrong? Please don't turn me into a Pharisee or let me wake up in the seat of Moses.




I'm still practicing the quote boxes, probably deleted more than I wanted to.

As free from the Law, I'm trying to figure out still the relationships between specific good rules and the general 'Love' command. I have a hard time referencing specific texts, but James wrote something about a Law that makes free. This probably isn't my best time of day either, mornings I'm more with it.
Without some rules, we may hurt out of ignorance, I want to avoid that.

You said before that you were not to have authority. I was thanking you as a brother, you can see that I have my own beliefs and theories, there isn't much I really know with certainty.

Since you have been free with your experience, maybe I should reciprocate. Back in 1973,4 Jesus appeared with another man. Like a window opening in front of me. Jesus said, "If you are mine, then I am yours. Fear not" I didn't ask who the other man was, so I don't know. Not a very detailed calling, so I've been doing the best I could. Sometimes I would give up and pretend to be an atheist or something else, but Jesus never let go and I didn't. So I know Jesus lives. I know that I need not fear. And I am his, and he is mine. I have seen many signs that God loves people. Apart from that I believe some things, think some things, and guess about others.
Like you, when I read the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels, I recognize my Lord.
Really I just was thanking you as a brother.

Peace



posted on Nov, 23 2009 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
As free from the Law, I'm trying to figure out still the relationships between specific good rules and the general 'Love' command. I have a hard time referencing specific texts, but James wrote something about a Law that makes free. This probably isn't my best time of day either, mornings I'm more with it.
Without some rules, we may hurt out of ignorance, I want to avoid that.


Free from the "written law" in that you don't need them anymore as you will have the understanding the laws themselves are based on. However, you would still be keeping the laws, just in a different way/reason.

For example: Do not kill.

Before, you did not kill because it was a commandment and written law. After Jesus, you do not kill because you understand it is wrong(based on loving one another).

So, Jesus says - think not that I have come to change the law, but to fulfill it. By fulfilling the laws, he gives understanding to people and is an example on how they too can follow. And so it is by that understanding that you do not kill, rather than the "Because I said so" method.



You said before that you were not to have authority. I was thanking you as a brother, you can see that I have my own beliefs and theories, there isn't much I really know with certainty.


It's cool, I just wanted to make sure I was being crystal clear. I won't even talk to my wife about these things, simply because she will just accept what I say and repeat it. It makes her mad, but she is better off without me telling her things as acceptance is the enemy of understanding. Here I don't really have to worry about it as much, to everyone here I am just someone on a forum etc. But not making myself into any kind of authority is that important to me. I would soon keep my mouth shut than to knowingly allow it to happen.



Since you have been free with your experience, maybe I should reciprocate. Back in 1973,4 Jesus appeared with another man. Like a window opening in front of me. Jesus said, "If you are mine, then I am yours. Fear not" I didn't ask who the other man was, so I don't know. Not a very detailed calling, so I've been doing the best I could. Sometimes I would give up and pretend to be an atheist or something else, but Jesus never let go and I didn't. So I know Jesus lives. I know that I need not fear. And I am his, and he is mine. I have seen many signs that God loves people. Apart from that I believe some things, think some things, and guess about others.
Like you, when I read the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels, I recognize my Lord.


I've never meet Jesus. When I think of Jesus, I think more in terms of "the truth, the way and the life". Meaning, he represents those things so well they are basically interchangeable to me.

To me, it doesn't even matter if he is real or whatever. You could flat out prove to me that the entire story of Jesus was made up, and I would not change in my opinion at all. To me, either way whoever wrote the story would have had to have known the father, as I know that is where the understanding itself comes from.

And for that reason, I have no trouble believing he exists and such. Because if someone understood enough to write the story, there is no reason why someone couldn't have understood enough to actually do it.

But I've never meet "Jesus", only the father that is within. I did once have a dream in which as I was waking up, what I thought was "Jesus" immediately as I woke up was standing with a bunch of people waving good bye to me. Problem is, I don't remember anything before that part in the dream. But for some reason, as I woke up I had this feeling/knowing that it was Jesus. Could have just been a random dream, I don't know. Nothing in the manner you speak of though.



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by badmedia

First attempt at multiple quote boxes. I probably cut out something about laws. So laws provide a sort of structure to keep us from doing things we would be sorry for later. Like a child before experience has been gained enough to set limits for herself. Later, good limits are internalized, become natural. I think that's what you meant. I didn't think to keep that part of quote before I cut it out. I'm still trying to get quote boxes down.


Originally posted by badmedia
It's cool, I just wanted to make sure I was being crystal clear. I won't even talk to my wife about these things, simply because she will just accept what I say and repeat it. It makes her mad, but she is better off without me telling her things as acceptance is the enemy of understanding. Here I don't really have to worry about it as much, to everyone here I am just someone on a forum etc. But not making myself into any kind of authority is that important to me. I would soon keep my mouth shut than to knowingly allow it to happen.

I read a paper recently by a professor in TN, about how individuality is being suppressed through media manipulation. The result is broken personalities conforming to behavior patterns without being able to stop because their personalities had been that broken.

You wrote once that you found the Father because you were shocked and amazed by how evil/insane things seemed to be. When I try to understand today's politicians and media people, it seems obvious that not much rational thought is involved in what they are saying. They seem to be broken. I'm glad the Father found you. He helps you keep your self. And He refused to take your free will, even when you offered. The Father is protecting your individual self from being lost or broken in this increasingly insane world. Of course you don't want to be any part of breaking some one else's self. That would be bad.

Jesus said often that he was learning from the Father and doing the things he saw the Father doing. He even cast out unclean spirits from people so that they could have their minds back under their own control.

There's probably something you could say to your wife without being authoritative about it. The Father loves your wife too, and wants her self protected too. It's a nutso world, we got to help each other through it.


I've never meet Jesus. When I think of Jesus, I think more in terms of "the truth, the way and the life". Meaning, he represents those things so well they are basically interchangeable to me.

To me, it doesn't even matter if he is real or whatever. You could flat out prove to me that the entire story of Jesus was made up, and I would not change in my opinion at all. To me, either way whoever wrote the story would have had to have known the father, as I know that is where the understanding itself comes from.

I never met the Father. But I believe in Him through knowing Jesus. Jesus said something about sheep knowing his voice, and to know one is to know the other. And we're the same flock after all. Some day I will see the Father and you will see Yeshua the son of man.

Stay safe and sane out there.


[edit on 24-11-2009 by pthena]

[edit on 24-11-2009 by pthena]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by pthena
First attempt at multiple quote boxes. I probably cut out something about laws. So laws provide a sort of structure to keep us from doing things we would be sorry for later. Like a child before experience has been gained enough to set limits for herself. Later, good limits are internalized, become natural. I think that's what you meant. I didn't think to keep that part of quote before I cut it out. I'm still trying to get quote boxes down.


I had not thought of it in that kind of a manner/expression, but yes I can see it being looked at that way.



I read a paper recently by a professor in TN, about how individuality is being suppressed through media manipulation. The result is broken personalities conforming to behavior patterns without being able to stop because their personalities had been that broken.


This is the war on god. The war on god is a war on consciousness/individual. To try and turn people into robots, witout free will and individuality and so forth. This is the reason people are hated, because of their free will. Things without free will bring them power, but that with free will doesn't and so must be manipulated into it.



You wrote once that you found the Father because you were shocked and amazed by how evil/insane things seemed to be. When I try to understand today's politicians and media people, it seems obvious that not much rational thought is involved in what they are saying. They seem to be broken. I'm glad the Father found you. He helps you keep your self. And He refused to take your free will, even when you offered. The Father is protecting your individual self from being lost or broken in this increasingly insane world. Of course you don't want to be any part of breaking some one else's self. That would be bad.


The furthest I have ever been able to go is to where the only things in existance were me and the father. I could not go any further than that, because "I" would cease to exist. Our "I" and our individuality is actually only possible due to our limited perception/knowledge. If I had gone further and seen the "whole of god", then that limited perception and knowledge would be lost and "I" would cease to exist. 1 day I will do that, but the journey back and the experience is the point of the individuality(soul) in the first place and is something we all do/will do. All things of the father will eventually return to the father, and the physical will "pass away".



Jesus said often that he was learning from the Father and doing the things he saw the Father doing. He even cast out unclean spirits from people so that they could have their minds back under their own control.


This is done with understanding via the holy spirit. When others are given the ability to "forgive sins" with the holy spirit, that is what it means. Through the understanding one can show another the errors of their ways, so that they can fix their mistakes(repent for sins).

I don't know about all of them, but I know for sure that atleast 1 example of jesus "curing the blind" is in terms of showing that person understanding rather than physical sight. Others seemed more physical in nature in their description, but many times the "blind" are those without understanding, unable to "see" the truth because of it.



There's probably something you could say to your wife without being authoritative about it. The Father loves your wife too, and wants her self protected too. It's a nutso world, we got to help each other through it.


I don't worry about her too much. I did not find the father because I trusted what people told me, I found the father because I did not trust what people told me. As I did not not trust men, I sought and found.

She actually learns this way, and I know she does because she has said things that only come from understanding. And then I know for sure she has learned it, not repeating it because she thinks I'm usually right about things. I don't do it to punish her or because I don't care etc. She knows some things etc, but I don't discuss them with her in detail.



I never met the Father. But I believe in Him through knowing Jesus. Jesus said something about sheep knowing his voice, and to know one is to know the other. And we're the same flock after all. Some day I will see the Father and you will see Yeshua the son of man.


The father is within you, just as he is within Jesus. Make no mistake about that. If not for the father within a person, they would have no consciousness, no understanding, no intelligence, no observer and they would not be aware at all. It is only because the father is within you that you have these things to begin with.

If you go deep enough "within", then you will see that what is really "you" is the father, and the "You" of this reality is a son. ALL are sons and daughters of god(Psalm 82, John 14:20).

What makes Jesus "special" is the amount of understanding he had of these things, and the willpower to follow it so well and such. He is so open and such in his expressions, that you can see the father within him.

Jesus is supposed to be the norm, and 1 day will be. In his time and even currently he is the exception to the rule, instead of the rule. 1 day it will be the rule, and all will know as he did when the truth is revealed to men.



[edit on 11/24/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by badmedia


Originally posted by badmedia


The furthest I have ever been able to go is to where the only things in existance were me and the father. I could not go any further than that, because "I" would cease to exist. Our "I" and our individuality is actually only possible due to our limited perception/knowledge. If I had gone further and seen the "whole of god", then that limited perception and knowledge would be lost and "I" would cease to exist. 1 day I will do that, but the journey back and the experience is the point of the individuality(soul) in the first place and is something we all do/will do. All things of the father will eventually return to the father, and the physical will "pass away".

I had an experience back in '96 that sounds similar.
I was profoundly depressed and fell into bed, not caring whether I ever got up again. After a few days I felt myself to be as an onion and the layers were peeling away. I was fairly thin by the time I realized that each layer was an experience of my life. That my self is made of my experiences, thoughts, feelings, actions, and words. When I was almost nothing, I saw at the core a bright shining grain of sand, maybe diamond chip. I felt that it was beyond experience, but that I myself am the onion and I live in the layers. And yes, to get closer to the core would be to lose my self, my life. So of course I wrapped back up and rolled out of bed.



The father is within you, just as he is within Jesus. Make no mistake about that. If not for the father within a person, they would have no consciousness, no understanding, no intelligence, no observer and they would not be aware at all. It is only because the father is within you that you have these things to begin with.

If that was the Father within me, then I really should wait until I'm through with life to meet Him closer. In the meantime I try to be like Jesus. He has authority over me.

Once, in my foolishness, I thought, "If he is my brother, then I'm as good as he is." That foolishness didn't last long. He's so much older and wiser. I'm just a kid learning how to ride a bike. I believe he will always be above and ahead of me now and forever.

For now, all I can do is help other people, mostly with charity, because that's not hard to do at all. I think I've helped in other ways too.

God loves people, not religion. Peace
[edit on 11/24/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


Originally posted by jmdewey60

I normally just read Hebrews as an authoritative book on how to put the Old Covenant into proper context in light of the accomplishments and ongoing work of Jesus as the Christ. In my own mind, there is a personality behind the book that I feel as a presence, who is speaking the words, but it doesn't say, "I am Paul", for some reason. I think that whoever it is, is speaking with the same authority of Paul.


My whole theory of Hebrews written by Paul fell apart as soon as I read Hebrews. This is obviously not Paul. From an introduction in a study bible I have it's probably a homily, as in a sermon. So I read it as such.

I found it quite startlingly that there seemed to not be shock, dismay, or disappointment displayed from the author. After all, as most scholars date it between A.D. 70-80. It's obvious audience would be Greek speaking Jewish Christians, and Jerusalem had just been destroyed with the temple!
Obviously it must have been no surprise, they were prepared for it. From which we may deduce that the warnings from the prophet Yeshua were available to them, either as written or word of mouth, along with some account of his actions and words. That would be part of the source material for the sermon, along with a Septuigent variation of the Old Testament including Leviticus obviously and Jeremiah.

The persecution mentioned seems to be some sort of local city police harassment, as opposed to an empire wide persecution. Members would be arrested randomly and locked up for a period of time. I'm guessing the city where the congregation, probably more than one sharing a circuit preacher, was far enough away from Jerusalem and Rome so as to avoid the nastier forms of repressive martial law, since the siege of Jerusalem was in progress or was recent history.

It's obvious also that part of the doctrinal framework shared by the congregation included recognizing the obsolete nature of Jerusalem temple worship, with attention directed toward a heavenly, not made with human hands temple. This teaching was already in place even before the destruction of Jerusalem temple.

This was truly an amazing sect/denomination/school of Greek speaking Jewish Christians, which I am afraid has been lost to us in history due to the subsequent depredations first of the empire and then the empire church. Shame on the empire church that squelched so many viewpoints for the sake of uniformity. What we have left is this sermon.

It's not Paul. The preacher does not quite clench the deal, so to speak, the way Paul could.

Probably what you are most interested in is what Jesus did for the Jews which would seem above and beyond what he did for the Gentiles. Now this is really something I haven't really thought on deeply even though the Elijah Message mentions it. You pushed me though, and I think that Gentiles just might not be able to appreciate it.

According to this sermon the one who was sent by God to be the High Priest forever, actually did offer himself up as a sacrifice, and thereby entered the heavenly temple as high priest. And he did it for no better reason than that those who are Bar Mitzvah could consider him high priest. Even though to us not under the Law, it seems unnecessary, and actually appalling(it's appalling to me), yet he did it. That's how much he loves those under the law.

I don't think I should think on this, or try to teach it, maybe someone else can. Maybe someone must. Appropriate person to appropriate person.
That's not me though. Paul hinted (I really think he should have left it alone if he wasn't going to explain it completely. And even James the Lord's brother left it alone. To me it is appalling, but if he did it to save, I guess that's how much he loves. I think this is what you were looking for.



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by pthena
This is a continuation of my previous post.
This touches on an essential Christian doctrine. The sin-sacrifice of Jesus as taught by Paul is absolutely not necessary for any not under the law. Paul did not quite explain it fully, that's the flaw. In all other ways he did his duty flawlessly. I disagree with him in other minor ways, but this is really too much.

I am not a Christian for the major reason I will not say, "He died for my sins." That's too much. He did for a few, those who could not be free of the Law without it. Human sacrifice is and always shall be an abomination. The Messiah became an abomination for the sake of those he could save thereby. He loves that much, that's why he was crying with such deep groans.

When I hear Christians saying with joy, "He died for me." Shouldn't they rather mourn? Shouldn't they be weeping and wailing? Shouldn't they rather find a way for that not to be necessary? I would rather die for myself, than to have my Lord die. I found a way because I wanted it enough.

It's quite simple, "God forgives whoever He wants to. No one has to die!"

If Christianity is this hard for me to accept, think of how hard twisted and distorted Christianity is!

I saw a documentary once about torture methods used during the Inquisition. These monsters tortured people to death to convert them to the Lord they claimed to worship, the one who "was tortured to death to save them." It struck me then that they did not worship the "tortured to death Lord" They worshiped the torture and death.

It should not be too difficult at all to any rational mind that worship of torture and death is an abomination that causes devastation. It's plain insane, and it's happening right now. You can turn on a television and see bogus/fake Christians making hit lists publicly over the airwaves. Right there in view of the whole world is the anti-christ saying which people, which tribes, which religions should be attacked and devastated with great military might.

Is that following Jesus? Absolutely Not! Christians should know this. If a Christian can't tell the difference between Christ and anti-christ then they just might be part of the anti-christ.

That's what I have to say. And so I have spoken



[edit on 24-11-2009 by pthena]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 

Probably what you are most interested in is what Jesus did for the Jews which would seem above and beyond what he did for the Gentiles. Now this is really something I haven't really thought on deeply even though the Elijah Message mentions it. You pushed me though, and I think that Gentiles just might not be able to appreciate it.
That might be, that gentiles in general do not appreciate it. Depends on how you look at it, I guess.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them.
Apparently there is something built into the law that foretold the life and work of Jesus. For all I know, there could be more in the Law than the Prophets, that was being fulfilled. I, being a gentile, can look at the general situation, as an objective observer, and gain, maybe not so much an appreciation, as in a feeling, but an appreciation as in a certain degree of insight into the divine mind who would have thought up all this, the system of law and sin and forgiveness, on a bigger scale.
Being a Seventh-day Adventist tends to make me take that kind of point of view. To me, the reason why God allows bad things to happen to good people, meaning that this world has been allowed to continue in its sinful state, is because there is a bigger issue in the question of law and sin and forgiveness, that involves the controversy between and Satan. Maybe that is an intellectual crutch but without it, I see no reason for the life we are living.


[edit on 24-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


It's ignorance that is what you are looking for there in deeper reason. Ignorance is the fuel of "evil". As long as people are ignorant, then evil will rule. The only cure to ignorance is knowledge, understanding and wisdom, which is why those things are considered more valuable than gold.

The only way one can understand the difference between hot and cold is if they experience both. Then based on those experiences, you are able to understand the difference between them. Good and evil work in this same manner(genesis).

As we have already eaten from the tree of knowledge, there is no real turning back. The only way possible for you to turn back would be to lose all memory of this life, and go back to a moment before the tree of knowledge was taken from. However, as something lead you to eat from the tree of knowledge in the first place - that issue will still raise it's head again, because the lesson has not been learned. IE: There was a reason why you ate from the tree to begin with, and it would happen again.

That reason was ignorance, and to go back that ignorance still exists. So there is no way around it at this point. We have to overcome our ignorances, and go in the way of understanding.

Once we understand good and evil, then we can make the correct choice to good(wisdom). And then the issue is resolved.

Same thing with sin, and the reason/purpose for repenting for your sin(fixing your mistakes). The moment you truly repent you are automatically forgiven by the father. It is the ultimate form of atonement. As you have truly repented for that sin, then you will no longer do it in the future. That is a bit of wisdom gained by you, and as it won't happen anymore - the issue is resolved.

However, if you continue to do the mistake, then you have not truly repented. You are not really sorry for your mistake, you are sorry for the consequences. Take a man who cheats on his wife and gets caught. He says he is sorry, won't do it again and so forth. But he does it again. He is not sorry he done it, he is sorry he got caught. As he will continue to make the mistake, the issue is not resolved.





[edit on 11/24/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 
I am looking for ignorance?
Well if you think everything in the Bible is just made up stories to justify what some priests were already doing for some obscure reason.
I don't think that was the position that Jesus took. Was Jesus seeking ignorance by paying attention to the scriptures? I don't think so. Jesus was on a mission and it had to do with the Old Testament. I don't remember Jesus saying anything like, "I have come to this world to tell you the answer lies within". There is an external God and Jesus made a way for our communion with that God, and it was according to a plan that was made in heaven before he was born. This same plan was in place even earlier than that and predates Moses, who reflects that plan in his law.
I don't know about all that eating from the tree of knowledge business because I was not there and I never made any sort of choice about it. Is this some way to explain life? That we decided to have a crappy existence for the reason of later appreciating a good life sometime in the future? That makes no sense to me. All the little spirits who want to be born in the universe somewhere are all lined up and God asks. "Who wants to go to the Evil Planet?" All the volunteers get sent here for the purpose of attaining some sort of special enlightenment? That's kind of a strange way of looking at it, that we are accommodated in our willful desire to be disobedient?



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
The post previously here has been removed by the author.
I am sorry.
Inappropriate venue.
Inappropriate speaker.
Inappropriate audience.
inconsistent message.
I am obviously not prepared to deal with some subjects.


[edit on 25-11-2009 by pthena]

[edit on 25-11-2009 by pthena]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by badmedia
 
I am looking for ignorance?
Well if you think everything in the Bible is just made up stories to justify what some priests were already doing for some obscure reason.
I don't think that was the position that Jesus took. Was Jesus seeking ignorance by paying attention to the scriptures? I don't think so. Jesus was on a mission and it had to do with the Old Testament. I don't remember Jesus saying anything like, "I have come to this world to tell you the answer lies within". There is an external God and Jesus made a way for our communion with that God, and it was according to a plan that was made in heaven before he was born. This same plan was in place even earlier than that and predates Moses, who reflects that plan in his law.
I don't know about all that eating from the tree of knowledge business because I was not there and I never made any sort of choice about it. Is this some way to explain life? That we decided to have a crappy existence for the reason of later appreciating a good life sometime in the future? That makes no sense to me. All the little spirits who want to be born in the universe somewhere are all lined up and God asks. "Who wants to go to the Evil Planet?" All the volunteers get sent here for the purpose of attaining some sort of special enlightenment? That's kind of a strange way of looking at it, that we are accommodated in our willful desire to be disobedient?


What I meant was ignorance was the answer/reason to what you said, the "why" it is that way. I was not calling you ignorant or saying you were literally searching for ignorance, but that ignorance is the reason there is the system of law, sin and forgiveness on the bigger scale.

The system is in response to that ignorance, and the "cure". As we fix our ignorance and gain wisdom(repenting for sins like I said), then we are forgiven.

And yes, Jesus does say the answers lie within. So much so that he even says - you already know. He also talks of the father being within, the kingdom of heaven being within and the holy spirit teaching. In the OT, rather than Jesus being that which guides people, it was wisdom and understanding.

You have taken from the tree of knowledge, else you wouldn't be here. Are you not capable of doing both good and evil? Are you not capable of knowing both? Are you removed from the garden? Are you separated from the tree of life, and the life in the universe? Yes, and so you obviously have taken from that tree.

Did you choose some crappy life? Well I don't know the answer to that question directly. But if you want to go by the bible, it says you were tricked into it. You agreed to something else other than a crappy life, not realizing that the crappy life was part of it. When we make choices, there are things that go along with it that aren't exactly obvious. This is a form of manipulation.

Take a political question. Any issue you want. For every issue, there is actually 2 questions. The first question is always kept silent, and if you should so happen to mention it, you will be labeled a kook. The first question is simply - should this be a job of the government. But that is kept silent, and instead the debate is focused on what should be done. People unknowingly said "Yes" to giving them the power, and once that power is gained those who gained it can just change it later to whatever they really want. First they wanted to gain the power over the issue, which is done with that little trick.

See how it's done? It's not like it says - oh you are going to eat it, be miserable and wish you had never done it and then you did it. It was instead presented only as what the end result would be. Same thing with politics and many things. Presented in the best way possible.

So, in the garden in genesis. It is presented as gaining knowledge of good and evil and to be like god. Sounds good. What isn't mentioned however is that in order to gain that understanding, it means you will have to be subjected to it and experience - thus the trick.

I think people are confused about genesis, and think it means that knowledge and such is bad. It's not as I have showed you with proverbs and such. We are already here, now we need that knowledge so we can make the correct choice and not be deceived.

The father is within. What you see as separation or externally is the individuality of the soul. From the point of the the individual, then you have the separation and so it is in that manner "external". However, if you are to see the bigger picture, and go beyond that individuality/soul then you find the father is within.

Like the father is within you, and the father is within me. When we look at each other as separate individuals - we are external of each other. You are you, and I am me. But when you get into spirit and such, then that separation is understood to not be real. That is something you just kind of find on your own, or you might prefer to say - on god's time/choice.

Makes it somewhat difficult to talk about these things, it depends on which perspective we are looking through for the external/within thing.



[edit on 11/24/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 10:34 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 

Give this message to all your church leaders. Wake up and get on the ball.
Wake up? Well thanks for the advice. I don't have any sort of influence on the leadership of anything and I don't take any orders from any kind of leadership.
Thanks for the history lesson.
I agree that what everyone in America needs to wake up to is that we are being deceived by people in positions of authority concerning foreign policy about the nature of the war that the taxpayer money is paying for.
That being said, I don't see the book of Revelation giving Christians a mandate to politically fight the beast. The message is for the people of the earth to worship the One who created the earth.
I am a little ignorant, apparently, about the message of Elijah. Malachi talks about remembering the law given to Moses.



posted on Nov, 24 2009 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 
You can think whatever you want and it doesn't bother me, really. Everything you say seems on the surface to be perfectly reasonable. If it works for you then more power to you. You have a nice thing for yourself.
It could be that somehow I missed out on my opportunity for enlightenment. I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly. I don't see myself having some sort of choice about anything. I feel like I am set on a pair of tracks and sent on down the hill, with no way to stop and no way to turn to the right or the left. I do what I was born to do, and that is just me.
All that dreariness aside, God can still have a purpose. Lets say I am naturally sarcastic and critical of people to the point of almost being at a sadistic level. All of a sudden someone pops up in my face for no apparent reason and has some sort of story to tell. She thinks God has shown her that she was doing the right thing to be devoting her time to pursue, in her own mind, some sort of justice, "for the good of humanity". God had caused her to meet a man who would help her in her pursuit, so she must be "doing the right thing, right?" Well, no. God just sent me to tell you that you are wasting your time and will never see a day in court to present your case. What? but I put all this time and work into all this. Take everything you found while researching for your case and write a good article to post on a web site that is concerned with this particular issue.
If you can follow all that. That's what happened today, and maybe my particular personality was appropriate for the situation. Well, I am not about to drastically change my personality, and that might not be my mission in life, to somehow become someone else. All that sort of stuff seems like futile ambition, when we can deal with who we are and figure out who we are can actually be of some sort of use.
Abby Hoffman was about the most obnoxious person I have ever heard being interviewed, back when he was alive. But it could be that the evil being perpetrated in Viet Nam justified that sort of personality to tell the government they were wrong, in the way they deserved.


[edit on 24-11-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 02:36 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60



I don't see the book of Revelation giving Christians a mandate to politically fight the beast. The message is for the people of the earth to worship the One who created the earth.


Yes, you are correct. The message is not to the beast but to the people dwelling on the earth. I presume too much to tell any one else what their message is or should be. I have no servants after all



posted on Nov, 25 2009 @ 05:32 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 
Don't worry about that. It might take me a while to understand whatever it is that you are thinking needs to be proclaimed. Something about freedom, I think. Or something about the law according to Mohammad. Maybe he had to fix some of those people who were falsely worshipping idols, and that would turn them to the god of Abraham.

The Lord found him in a desolate land, in an empty wasteland where animals howl. He continually guarded him and taught him; he continually protected him like the pupil of his eye.
He may have thought he was Abraham. Instead of God finding Abraham, Muhammad found God? Maybe you can see my problem here. That doesn't mean I can not be persuaded, just that enigmatic one liners don't do much for me. I may be a bit cynical, and forgive my insolence. Thick ears, and all that. Being a prophet has never been much fun, oops, except for the blessed be his name with all the wives. (forgive me for I know not what I write) Remember the two prophets lying in the streets of Babylon, they had a miserable time of it. It could be that the more of a prophet one is, the worse you get for your trouble, Jesus being a case in point. The way I look at it, the closer one is to the prophet, the more difficult it is to understand him. The people who were witness to Jesus preaching got no more out of the experience than we do by reading the Gospels, if it was otherwise, it just would not be fair, right? So God caused them to not understand, if that makes any sense. So if you were able to somehow go back in time to listen to Jesus do a sermon, you would end up standing there saying to yourself, "What the hell did he just say?"



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