For any civilization, be it human or alien, there will always be key, essential resources that based on the the degree of availability of these resources, will determine how rapidly an emerging civilization will develop technologically ... or whether in fact, that emerging civilization will instead hit a limiting developmental point and eventually stagnate technologically
Two of the most critical resources that will ultimately govern the degree of technological complexity achieved by any civilization will be the availability of processed metals as well as an oxygen based atmosphere.


1. Metals
Any technologically advanced civilization would by necessity be extremely dependent on the availability and supply of processed metals.These metals would be essential for the development of various key technologies such as electronics, access to space, transportation, communications, research, agriculture, etc.
Even though it could be envisaged that a civilization could potentially develop using alternative materials such as ceramics and plastics, these civilizations would be very restricted in the type and degree of technology that they could develop ... which in turn would place a fundamental limit on the extent to which that civilization would be able to manipulate, develop and control it's environment.

A single example of how crucial metals would be to a developing technological civilization would be the extreme difficulty of developing an efficient communications system based on electronics. Most electronic items such as circuit boards, integrated circuits, batteries, etc contain metals such as copper, silver, aluminium, and gold as an integral component of their structure and their development would not have even been possible without the availability of these processed metals. Most communication devices such as satellite dishes and transmitting/receiving antennas require a substantial amount of metal in their construction and again, without the availability of such metals, it would be difficult indeed to create the infrastructure that would be needed to setup and maintain a global electronic communication system.

One could possibly argue that an alien civilization would not necessarily have to follow the same technological development timeline as humans did and could conceivably develop an alternative system of communications that didn't depend on electronics as we know it. But the argument against such a possibility is rooted in the laws of physics and electromagnetic radiation as it is understood by us. If a radicaly different and non-metallic electronic framework was to exist, then most likely we'd also be aware of it and/or utilizing it ourselves. But the main reason we have developed our existing electronic technology is because it has evolved over time as our knowledge and understanding of physics has likewise evolved. It therefore stands to reason that an alien civilization would, in it's development, at some point in time also discover these same physical laws which would tend to drive their scientific/technological progress along similar lines to ours.


2. Oxygen based atmosphere.
We are not concerned at this point in whether or not an alien species requires oxygen for respiration as this is not relevant to this topic ... rather the availability (or lack of) atmospheric oxygen will directly impinge on the degree to which metallic bearing ore can be processed, if at all.
The majority of metals do not occur in nature in a pure state but are usually found mixed with other impurities in the form of metallic ores. Historically, the earliest and simplest methods developed for extraction of the pure metal from the ore usually involved the application of intense heat to the ore, raising it's temperature beyond the meting point of the metal in question and then collecting the resultant liquefied metal.
In earliest times, the necessary heat was primarily obtained by burning some form of combustible material such as wood, coal or oil.

But no matter what the fuel source may have been, it was completely dependent on an oxidizer which in each case, happened to be the oxygen present in the surrounding atmosphere .. without oxygen, the fuel source would not ignite, there would be no resulting source of heat and it would not have been possible to extract the metal from it's ore state.

Even if the planet does have an oxygen based atmosphere, it's also critical that the amount of freely available oxygen be of a minimum concentration to support combustion ... too low an oxygen content will have the impact of making it very difficult to initiate and maintain a flame at a high enough temperature to melt metals. A low oxygen content could be due to either lack of planetary processes that generate free oxygen i.e. photosynthesis, volcanism, etc or a surface gravity that is too low to maintain and contain a dense enough atmosphere.

Exobiology, and biology in general makes no claim that every life form must be carbon based and must be an oxygen respirer. Indications are that other lifeforms could be based on other elements such as silicon and could use other gases besides oxygen for respiration such as carbon dioxide, nitrogen, etc.
Irrespective of the gas used for respiration, only oxygen will support external combustion of a fuel source. If the alien species planet does not have an oxygen based atmosphere, then it's extremely difficult to envisage how an early developing civilization could construct the necessary pre-requisites allowing the extraction and processing of metal bearing ores based on the application of an intense heat source. Without a source of processed metals, the developing civilization will most likely stagnate technologically and almost certainly be unable to develop space-faring capabilities.

Continued next post ...

Continued from previous post ...


So we can now see from the above how any developing technological civilization (human or alien) is profoundly dependent on 2 essential requirements: a source of metal ... and an atmosphere that will support combustion to initially allow the extraction of the metal from its ore and also allowing further processing of the extracted metal into other forms.
Here on Earth, we know that we have achieved our current level of technology by progressing in a logical and ordered manner with each new level being reached only after having achieved a previously, lower level of technology. There has been no sudden jumps from stone age technology to say, industrial steam powered technology; or of jumps from bronze age technology to say, electronics. Technological progress has been continuous but at the same time completely dependent on what was achieved previously ... so there is no reason to suppose that alien civilizations would be markedly different and making huge leaps between technological levels without any intermediary steps.
At some point of the alien civilizations development and for further technological progress to take place, it would be absolutely essential that they develop the capability to extract and manipulate metals.


Given the above, it may be safe to assume that if planets with suitable oxygen based atmospheres are in the minority, then highly advanced technological alien civilizations may be prove to be a rare occurrence. And if these planets are also lacking in metal resources, then such civilizations may turn out to be incredibly rare.


One could therefore draw the following 3 logical conclusions:

- that highly advanced technological alien civilizations will ONLY develop on planets with an oxygen based atmosphere and substantial metallic deposits

- without these 2 key items, all other developing alien civilizations will only reach a minimum level of technological capability before eventually stagnating.

- due to having vast reserves of the 2 necessary key items, humankind may be one of the very few (if not the only) technologically advanced civilizations within the galaxy.

Just out of curiousity ... and because I can't think of any easy method ...

Assume that you're an alien specie living on a planet with a nitrogen atmosphere. You have abundant metallic ore reserves and can get to it ... but how would you smelt the ore to recover the metal ? Bear in mind that you're at the stage of technology comparable to humans just leaving the stone age and beginning to enter the iron age ... so your available technology is very limited.

What about Roswell? With the amount of credible witnesses, I'd say they had found some pretty outstanding evidence of an alien civilisation.

Keep your eyes to the sky!

Originally posted by Whine Flu
What about Roswell? With the amount of credible witnesses, I'd say they had found some pretty outstanding evidence of an alien civilisation.

Keep your eyes to the sky!

So... could we conclude that if the Roswell incident actually does involve highly technologically advanced aliens ... that they're from an oxygen based planet because they have the obvious capability to process metals ?

Originally posted by tauristercus
Continued from previous post ...

So we can now see from the above how any developing technological civilization (human or alien) is profoundly dependent on 2 essential requirements: a source of metal ... and an atmosphere that will support combustion to initially allow the extraction of the metal from its ore and also allowing further processing of the extracted metal into other forms.

You are making a lot of assumptions here. One, that the aliens must use metal as we know it for their tools, craft etc. Two, that in order to process these metals they need an atmosphere that will let them process the metals in the same manner that is known to Humans.

It is entirely possible that aliens do not need metal at all but rather use organic based materials for their tools and crafts.

It is also entirely possible that if they did use metal they would have some other means to process it that it not known to us.

That's your whole argument right there. You must not assume that they are like us or do things the same way humans would do them or that their science is like ours. They may have understanding of physics that is so beyond ours that it makes everything we know, child's play.


[edit on 18-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

[edit on 18-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

[edit on 18-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

You know, it never occurred to me that something as simple as the ability to process metals could make or break a civilizations technological progress.
So if an alien civilization had access to metal ore but had a NONE oxygen atmosphere or had an oxygen type atmosphere but MINIMAL access to metal ore, in both cases their civilizations wouldn't progress very far technologically.

As for how to extract metal from ore without available oxygen ... I'm stumped !

S&F

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by tauristercus
Continued from previous post ...

So we can now see from the above how any developing technological civilization (human or alien) is profoundly dependent on 2 essential requirements: a source of metal ... and an atmosphere that will support combustion to initially allow the extraction of the metal from its ore and also allowing further processing of the extracted metal into other forms.

You are making a lot of assumptions here. One, that the aliens must use metal as we know it for their tools, craft etc. Two, that in order to process these metals they need an atmosphere that will let them process the metals in the same manner that is known to Humans.

It is entirely possible that aliens do not need metal at all but rather use organic based materials for their tools and crafts.

It is also entirely possible that if they did use metal they would have some other means to process it that it not known to us.

That's your whole argument right there. You must not assume that they are like us or do things the same way humans would do them or that their science is like ours. They may have understanding of physics that is so beyond ours that it makes everything we know, child's play.



[edit on 18-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

You beat me to it. This is what I was going to say after reading the OP.

I believe your post answers the OPs question completely. Thanks-tree

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by tauristercus

You are making a lot of assumptions here. One, that the aliens must use metal as we know it for their tools, craft etc. Two, that in order to process these metals they need an atmosphere that will let them process the metals in the same manner that is known to Humans.

Not really ... the assumption tauristercus seems to be making (and one that I'm beginning to agree with) is that at some point early in their technological development (comparable to that of humans going from stone age technology to iron age technology), that an alien civilization will also discover resources within the environment that could be potentially useful to them.
At some point in our history, someone discovered (accidentally ?) that intense heat will extract metal from a rock ... one assumes that if metallic ores exist on alien planets, that the inhabitants will at some point try to extract the metal content ... but without oxygen in the atmosphere, there's no easy/simple way to do that.

It is entirely possible that aliens do not need metal at all but rather use organic based materials for their tools and crafts.

Fine, I'll concede that possibility.
But how much more difficult must it then be to create the equivalent of radio or tv transmitter/receivers using organics for their initial forays into using the electromagnetic spectrum. How much more difficult would it be to generate kilowatts/megawatts of organic based radio-frequency energy for global communication ? How would they radiate the energy without the equivalent of a metallic antenna radiator ?
The physics behind it all would be so radical and yet we have an incredibly good understanding of how radio waves behave and are generated and there is nothing organic that even remotely approaches what you're suggesting.
Also bear in mind that like human technology, there would have been a comparative technological ladder that the aliens would have had to climb.

And how would a non-metal based technology even launch itself into space ? You'd still need to generate sufficient lift force to escape gravity. What would they use in their early experimental stages for fuel ? You'd assume they'd start of crudely as we did with chemical fuels ... where and how would they extract the necessary oxidizers (oxygen).

There's just NO WAY an advanced technology could function without metals ... sooner or later some device or other just wouldn't be possible without metal being involved. Could they even make the equivalent of an internal combustion engine with it's very high temps ? But then again, no air ... so an internal combustion engine would be useless to them.

It is also entirely possible that if they did use metal they would have some other means to process it that it not known to us.

If there was any other efficient, simple and reliable method available to extract metals from ore that a low tech civilization could use ... you can bet that we'd have discovered it ourselves a long time ago.


In the end, a civilization that can't use metals is ultimately technologically self limiting.



[edit on 18-11-2009 by vita eternus]

[edit on 18-11-2009 by vita eternus]

It is likely they reached a point where they virtualized their existence into a "matrix". Once that happened there became nothing physical to contact us.

First off, kudos for thinking outside the box with actual thought. A rarity in a place which seems to regard thinking outside the box as being able to come up with the most contrary and convoluted idea imaginable - then claiming conspiracy when the facts don't fit.

I don't have much time to fully respond at the moment, but just on initial impression I'd say that perhaps an oxygen based atmosphere isn't a necessity for civilizations to discover the process of refining ores as easily as we had. There's not enough information to even make a decent speculation - but differences in evolutionary histories could produce unforeseen innovations which lead to equal levels of technological sophistication over greater/shorter intervals and in a different order. Imagine how different our history of discovery may have been were humans a vegetarian only species - with societies and psychologies which favored herds over tribes, or altruistic cooperation more and territorial alpha male/matriarch female led social groups. Even discounting possible evolutionary and tribal influences on our psychology, humanity has often been driven to discovery by hardships. Necessity is the mother of invention, as the idiom goes. And our wars and conquests, terrible as they may be, have gone a long way towards driving invention by creating necessity - as well as opportunity.

But back to the original issue - humanity currently utilizes several technologies who's materials are dependent on refinement or manufacture in atmospheres which our planet does not create naturally. If technological evolution followed a much different path than human technological evolution did - what is there to suggest that the manufacture of synthetic materials would be prohibited prior to the manufacture/sequestration of oxygen for artificial environments allowing for the discovery and refinement of ores? What if a form of rubber, and later plastics, were developed prior to metal? What of other sources of heat necessary, such as chemical reactions or geothermal methods as an alternate source of thermal energy?

Perhaps I'm way off base... but it's all speculation anyhow. We think we lucked out by harnessing the utility of metal early on thanks to our atmosphere - but there may be more optimal configurations of advancement which aren't obvious to us looking back at our own fairly exponential advancements. While you do bring up a valid point, I am also reminded of the feats of ancient man which science and technology have trouble equally replicating or exceeding - using tools our ancestors had no access to. From massive stone architecture to the music of Stradivarius violins... our ancestors were every bit as smart as us, but were able to improvise and utilize materials and methods to their advantage out of a necessity we no longer have thanks to those tools.

Originally posted by vita eternus

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by tauristercus

You are making a lot of assumptions here. One, that the aliens must use metal as we know it for their tools, craft etc. Two, that in order to process these metals they need an atmosphere that will let them process the metals in the same manner that is known to Humans.

Not really ... the assumption tauristercus seems to be making (and one that I'm beginning to agree with) is that at some point early in their technological development (comparable to that of humans going from stone age technology to iron age technology), that an alien civilization will also discover resources within the environment that could be potentially useful to them.
At some point in our history, someone discovered (accidentally ?) that intense heat will extract metal from a rock ...

one assumes that if metallic ores exist on alien planets, that the inhabitants will at some point try to extract the metal content ... but without oxygen in the atmosphere, there's no easy/simple way to do that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again the physics may be different. There is just no easy way that we can understand how they could do it. But that does not mean it may not be possible.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is entirely possible that aliens do not need metal at all but rather use organic based materials for their tools and crafts.

Fine, I'll concede that possibility.
But how much more difficult must it then be to create the equivalent of radio or tv transmitter/receivers using organics for their initial forays into using the electromagnetic spectrum. How much more difficult would it be to generate kilowatts/megawatts of organic based radio-frequency energy for global communication ? How would they radiate the energy without the equivalent of a metallic antenna radiator ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No Need to make such devices. They use telepathy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The physics behind it all would be so radical and yet we have an incredibly good understanding of how radio waves behave and are generated and there is nothing organic that even remotely approaches what you're suggesting.
Also bear in mind that like human technology, there would have been a comparative technological ladder that the aliens would have had to climb.

And how would a non-metal based technology even launch itself into space ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This one is easy. Same way birds fly. Their craft could be living animals that have a symbiotic relationship with them
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You'd still need to generate sufficient lift force to escape gravity. What would they use in their early experimental stages for fuel ? You'd assume they'd start of crudely as we did with chemical fuels ... where and how would they extract the necessary oxidizers (oxygen).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No I wouldn't assume anything of the sort
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's just NO WAY an advanced technology could function without metals ... sooner or later some device or other just wouldn't be possible without metal being involved. Could they even make the equivalent of an internal combustion engine with it's very high temps ? But then again, no air ... so an internal combustion engine would be useless to them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now you are making assumptions about what defines an advanced civilization. They could be so very highly advanced that they have no need for such machinery.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is also entirely possible that if they did use metal they would have some other means to process it that it not known to us.

If there was any other efficient, simple and reliable method available to extract metals from ore that a low tech civilization could use ... you can bet that we'd have discovered it ourselves a long time ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I disagree. Who knows what shaped our evolutionary history. Perhaps if one thing in the past could have been different, our discoveries could have taken a completely different path.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the end, a civilization that can't use metals is ultimately technologically self limiting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whats your definition of technology? Are you sure it is the same definition for all aliens?

Again, you are still thinking of aliens in terms of the known world you can relate to. Who knows what kind of alien beings may be out there. There may be beings who don't even need spaceships to travel the stars. They may be from some place in this universe that has elements and atomic structures undreamed of to us. They may feed off the destructive energy of stars and use Black Holes as a means of shortcut to other galaxies.. not to mention other dimensions.

The point is in universe where physics as we know it is turned upside down, Anything Becomes Possible.

tauristercus first statement may still hold true;

"For any civilization, be it human or alien, there will always be key, essential resources that based on the the degree of availability of these resources, will determine how rapidly an emerging civilization will develop technologically"

But then he goes on to name the resources: metals and an oxygen atmosphere.

I am simply pointing out that the assumptions about aliens needing those two resources can be false.





[edit on 18-11-2009 by vita eternus]

[edit on 18-11-2009 by vita eternus]

[edit on 18-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

[edit on 18-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

Originally posted by Lasheic

I don't have much time to fully respond at the moment ...

For someone with not much time, you still managed to do a very good job of responding and providing many interesting and thoughtful points ... very much appreciated

... I'd say that perhaps an oxygen based atmosphere isn't a necessity for civilizations to discover the process of refining ores as easily as we had.

That had actually crossed my mind when I was creating this thread and actually gave me pause for thought.

But you have to bear in mind that the level of technology that I'm assigning to these hypothetical alien civilizations is one comparable to that which we humans had roughly towards the end of the stone age and just as we were starting to notice metals in the form of iron i.e. the Iron age.
At this point we had the most rudimentary technology, mostly based on very simple mechanical tools such as the wheel, plow, lever, etc and attempting to smelt and refine iron bearing ore was pushing our technological brilliance to the limit for those times.

With the alien species, I'm assuming that they also would go through a similar analogous upward learning curve as they make the transition from their equivalent version of the stone age and begin their 1st steps towards technological experimentation and growth. After all, no civilization appears suddenly fully developed technologically. Their successes will always be built on earlier and simpler technological innovations ... and this implies that no matter whether human or alien, there will be a continuous developmental path beginning with virtually no technology to speak of at one extreme, and culminating in a highly advanced technological civilization at the other extreme.

This implies that they would have similar problems that needed to be solved, just as we humans did ... the need to provide shelter, sustenance, protection, transportation, etc, etc.
As an example, if these aliens were mobile, then initially one would expect that to get from point A to point B that they'd do the equivalent of human "walking" ... but as their needs increased, at some point they would experiment with various alternative forms of superior locomotion. When it comes to solving a technical problem, usually similar solutions are devised and most times, the simplest solution that works is the way to go.
If these aliens had to transport goods/materials/food/whatever between 2 points, no matter how different their thought processes may be compared to us, physics will always be physics, and if one of their early geniuses came up with the idea of a simple box to carry the goods in, you can bet that it wouldn't take long to decide that attaching a circular wheel works a heck of a lot better than say, a square or triangular shaped "wheel".
Similar technical problems will eventuate similar technical solutions.

Anyway, I've digressed from your original comment that perhaps an oxygen based atmosphere may not be necessary to enable ore refinement.
And I would agree with you if we were talking about an already sufficiently advanced technological society that had the knowledge and resources to experiment and try alternative exotic techniques.
But recall again ... we're discussing an alien species just emerging from their equivalent of the stone age and at the limit as to what they can do from a technological perspective.
We humans luckily discovered fire in time to be able to apply it to ore and extract metal from it. If that hadn't worked for some reason, we'd essentially remain stuck in the stone age as we'd have NO other alternative means to heat ore sufficiently past the metals melting point.
Sure, we may have over the centuries progressed a slight bit more technologically, but it's almost guaranteed the society we have today would not exist ... no cars, trains, planes, tv's, communications, computers, mobile phones, etc, etc.

Without metals, our technological growth would have been enormously crippled.
And the only reason the budding Iron age societies were able to successfully extract metal was because they could fairly easily, generate a high temperature heat source and this method worked ONLY because of the presence of oxygen as an oxidizing agent, in the atmosphere.

What if a form of rubber, and later plastics, were developed prior to metal? What of other sources of heat necessary, such as chemical reactions or geothermal methods as an alternate source of thermal energy?

Again, we're talking about the most basic of societies on the 1st rung of the technological ladder.
Sure, they may have the organic equivalent of rubber and just may have been able to synthesize a form of plastic ... but I'm thinking that such a technology would be hard to arrive at if you had no prior access to metals.
After all, we manufacture plastics but look at all the infrastructure that is dependent on metals that needs to be in place before hand.

The simple answer is that they will come when they are ready.

Full stop.