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The biggest question regarding technologically advanced life in other portions of the universe isn't a question of oxygen or metals - Oxygen is iffy, and any world that can sustain life is going to be metal-rich - but rather whether that world has the selection pressures that could give rise to a species that can do something with the resources of its planet.
Originally posted by Whine Flu
What about Roswell? With the amount of credible witnesses, I'd say they had found some pretty outstanding evidence of an alien civilisation.
Keep your eyes to the sky!
Originally posted by tauristercus
Continued from previous post ...
So we can now see from the above how any developing technological civilization (human or alien) is profoundly dependent on 2 essential requirements: a source of metal ... and an atmosphere that will support combustion to initially allow the extraction of the metal from its ore and also allowing further processing of the extracted metal into other forms.
Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Originally posted by tauristercus
Continued from previous post ...
So we can now see from the above how any developing technological civilization (human or alien) is profoundly dependent on 2 essential requirements: a source of metal ... and an atmosphere that will support combustion to initially allow the extraction of the metal from its ore and also allowing further processing of the extracted metal into other forms.
You are making a lot of assumptions here. One, that the aliens must use metal as we know it for their tools, craft etc. Two, that in order to process these metals they need an atmosphere that will let them process the metals in the same manner that is known to Humans.
It is entirely possible that aliens do not need metal at all but rather use organic based materials for their tools and crafts.
It is also entirely possible that if they did use metal they would have some other means to process it that it not known to us.
That's your whole argument right there. You must not assume that they are like us or do things the same way humans would do them or that their science is like ours. They may have understanding of physics that is so beyond ours that it makes everything we know, child's play.
[edit on 18-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]
Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Originally posted by tauristercus
You are making a lot of assumptions here. One, that the aliens must use metal as we know it for their tools, craft etc. Two, that in order to process these metals they need an atmosphere that will let them process the metals in the same manner that is known to Humans.
It is entirely possible that aliens do not need metal at all but rather use organic based materials for their tools and crafts.
It is also entirely possible that if they did use metal they would have some other means to process it that it not known to us.
Originally posted by vita eternus
Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Originally posted by tauristercus
You are making a lot of assumptions here. One, that the aliens must use metal as we know it for their tools, craft etc. Two, that in order to process these metals they need an atmosphere that will let them process the metals in the same manner that is known to Humans.
Not really ... the assumption tauristercus seems to be making (and one that I'm beginning to agree with) is that at some point early in their technological development (comparable to that of humans going from stone age technology to iron age technology), that an alien civilization will also discover resources within the environment that could be potentially useful to them.
At some point in our history, someone discovered (accidentally ?) that intense heat will extract metal from a rock ...
one assumes that if metallic ores exist on alien planets, that the inhabitants will at some point try to extract the metal content ... but without oxygen in the atmosphere, there's no easy/simple way to do that.
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Again the physics may be different. There is just no easy way that we can understand how they could do it. But that does not mean it may not be possible.
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It is entirely possible that aliens do not need metal at all but rather use organic based materials for their tools and crafts.
Fine, I'll concede that possibility.
But how much more difficult must it then be to create the equivalent of radio or tv transmitter/receivers using organics for their initial forays into using the electromagnetic spectrum. How much more difficult would it be to generate kilowatts/megawatts of organic based radio-frequency energy for global communication ? How would they radiate the energy without the equivalent of a metallic antenna radiator ?
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No Need to make such devices. They use telepathy
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The physics behind it all would be so radical and yet we have an incredibly good understanding of how radio waves behave and are generated and there is nothing organic that even remotely approaches what you're suggesting.
Also bear in mind that like human technology, there would have been a comparative technological ladder that the aliens would have had to climb.
And how would a non-metal based technology even launch itself into space ?
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This one is easy. Same way birds fly. Their craft could be living animals that have a symbiotic relationship with them
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You'd still need to generate sufficient lift force to escape gravity. What would they use in their early experimental stages for fuel ? You'd assume they'd start of crudely as we did with chemical fuels ... where and how would they extract the necessary oxidizers (oxygen).
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No I wouldn't assume anything of the sort
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There's just NO WAY an advanced technology could function without metals ... sooner or later some device or other just wouldn't be possible without metal being involved. Could they even make the equivalent of an internal combustion engine with it's very high temps ? But then again, no air ... so an internal combustion engine would be useless to them.
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Now you are making assumptions about what defines an advanced civilization. They could be so very highly advanced that they have no need for such machinery.
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It is also entirely possible that if they did use metal they would have some other means to process it that it not known to us.
If there was any other efficient, simple and reliable method available to extract metals from ore that a low tech civilization could use ... you can bet that we'd have discovered it ourselves a long time ago.
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I disagree. Who knows what shaped our evolutionary history. Perhaps if one thing in the past could have been different, our discoveries could have taken a completely different path.
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In the end, a civilization that can't use metals is ultimately technologically self limiting.
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Whats your definition of technology? Are you sure it is the same definition for all aliens?
Again, you are still thinking of aliens in terms of the known world you can relate to. Who knows what kind of alien beings may be out there. There may be beings who don't even need spaceships to travel the stars. They may be from some place in this universe that has elements and atomic structures undreamed of to us. They may feed off the destructive energy of stars and use Black Holes as a means of shortcut to other galaxies.. not to mention other dimensions.
The point is in universe where physics as we know it is turned upside down, Anything Becomes Possible.
tauristercus first statement may still hold true;
"For any civilization, be it human or alien, there will always be key, essential resources that based on the the degree of availability of these resources, will determine how rapidly an emerging civilization will develop technologically"
But then he goes on to name the resources: metals and an oxygen atmosphere.
I am simply pointing out that the assumptions about aliens needing those two resources can be false.
[edit on 18-11-2009 by vita eternus]
[edit on 18-11-2009 by vita eternus]
The point is in universe where physics as we know it is turned upside down, Anything Becomes Possible.
Originally posted by Lasheic
I don't have much time to fully respond at the moment ...
... I'd say that perhaps an oxygen based atmosphere isn't a necessity for civilizations to discover the process of refining ores as easily as we had.
What if a form of rubber, and later plastics, were developed prior to metal? What of other sources of heat necessary, such as chemical reactions or geothermal methods as an alternate source of thermal energy?