Judge rules against women-only holidays

Originally posted by riley
Come of it. That is just fear mongering lies designed to get people on the anti-feminism bandwagon. "Oh no the sky is falling!!"

The fact is that 1 in 3 woman will experience sexual assault in their lifetime. That is not propoganda that is FACT and I LOVE the fact that I can now go to a female only night at the local pool where I don't have to be worried about being oggled, groped or followed home (which has actually happened to me).

So, you are stating that 33.3...% of women will experience some form of sexual assault in their lives? May I ask how you arrived at such a statistic, which cultures/countries were involved in the survey and what was the population size of those questioned. Is it sexual assault when women grope the testicles of males at night clubs? I have seen it happen first hand to friends on more than a few occasions. The females that do it just laugh it off as if that kind of behaviour is somehow wanted...

It sounds like you have hung around at some dodgy places and been surround by some drunk men. Not a good place to judge half the population now is it?

Good for you, I hope you have many other happy experiences at male-free zones. Just don't ask for help and protection when SHTF.

Worried about female only tour groups, gyms and pools? There are still elite old boys clubs that women are still not allowed to enter.. even Australia's governer general wasn't allowed into the exclusive melbourne club because she's a woman (a hotel etc. built for royalty and dignitaries). All governer generals that preceded were given instant membership based on their title but she was barred.

Yes there are and I do not agree with rules banning females from those clubs. But that does not mean I should support the banning of males from public venues. And those rules for excluding women are not based off negative, media-inspired notions that all women are potential serial-killing rapists. These women-only places are being created because the idea that only males can behave badly to females, which is utter rubbish.

"Have you spoken to any feminists lately?"

I actually have. All but one of them concluded that I have a very backwards way of thinking. They say I do not care about female rights or for the welfare of women. All I try to do it put forward the other side of the argument and I am labelled, spoken down to and not taken seriously.

EVERY single one of those who I have had discussions with have made an awkward silence when I asked if they believed Feminism was about equal rights for women, and if these equal rights have been achieved. Want to know why? Because females have the same rights as males and have had for quite a long time now! It does not really matter what your sex is, if you are determined to work hard and achieve success, you most likely will.

[edit on 18/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]

I think that ruling was exagerated. SOME divisions are common in our society, while others may seem like racism and such. One common division is by age. Adults can do things kids cant do and go places kinds cant go. Size is another division. If you are not big enough you cant ride that rollercoaster. Or be part of the basketball team... Another common division is sex. We have Men and Women toilets. Many sports are divided by sex. There is no volleyball team made of men AND women. Or soccer team.

So, I am in favor of the company trying to create a vacation package just for women. Judge overreacted in my opinion.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by henriquefd]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
So, you are stating that 33.3...% of women will experience some form of sexual assault in their lives? May I ask how you arrived at such a statistic, which cultures/countries were involved in the survey and what was the population size of those questioned.

I beg your pardon? So I am supposed to go through all countries one by one and qualify them all for you..? No I'm not jumping through hoops for you dear.. it's an average.

www.turningpointservices.org...
1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.

Is it sexual assault when women grope the testicles of males at night clubs?

If he feels it is and it was an unwelcomed advance: Yes it is.

I have seen it happen first hand to friends on more than a few occasions. The females that do it just laugh it off as if that kind of behaviour is somehow wanted...

Yes and EXACTLY the same thing happens to women.
I'm wondering.. how is that a counter argument to women being sexually assaulted? It does not invalidate what I said.

It sounds like you have hung around at some dodgy places and been surround by some drunk men. Not a good place to judge half the population now is it?

Do NOT try question my charactor and infer things about me. You are way out of line with your veiled insults. I do not hang around dodgy places nor am I surrounded by drunk men.. what you think I dance on pub tables as well..? :shk:
If you must know the last time happened at a shopping centre and a guy was stalking me while I was trying to get my groceries. I had to get a security guared to escort me to a taxi. How DARE you imply that I asked for it.

It's just as well as you totally discredit yourself blaming victims.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

I beg your pardon? So I am supposed to go through all countries one by one and qualify them all for you..? No I'm not jumping through hoops for you dear.. it's an average.

No need to jump through hoops, just provide some credible information to back up your claim that 33% of women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Last time I checked, there were hundreds of cultures, ethnicities, legal systems, systems of Government. The definition of "sexual assault" is likely to be very different among different cultures. So your statistic is general and unlikely to be very accurate.

How is sexual assault defined in Saudi Arabia? How is it defined in New Zealand? How is it defined in Zimbabwe? Is there a universal definition?

Yes and EXACTLY the same thing happens to women.
I'm wondering.. how is that a counter argument to women being sexually assaulted? It does not invalidate what I said.

What this does show is that you have an extreme bias against men. You are making it seem that sexual assault can only occur at the hands of men against women. I do not deny that most victims of sexual assaults are women at the hands of men. The problem is in society's view of acceptable behaviour towards men is not acceptable behaviour towards women. Do you think the female that grabbed my friend's testicles would be charged in a court? What about if my male friend had grabbed the female's breast? Do you not see how by your definition both of these are actually sexual assault, but are not recognised as such by society?

Do NOT try question my charactor and infer things about me. You are way out of line with your veiled insults. I do not hang around dodgy places nor am I surrounded by drunk men.. what you think I dance on pub tables as well..? :shk:

The only person making "veiled insults" is you. I am not judging you personally. I am trying to have a debate with you about the Feminist movement and its systematic destruction of Western civilisation.

If you must know the last time happened at a shopping centre and a guy was stalking me while I was trying to get my groceries. I had to get a security guared to escort me to a taxi. How DARE you imply that I asked for it.

I am sorry to hear this happened. It is unfortunate this occurred while you were shopping. I did not imply that you asked for it. THIS is a classic technique out of the Feminist manual. You create a straw-man argument based on the idea that I implied something that I actually did not. This detracts from the argument and derails the thread. Then YOU can just label me as the guy "who blames the victim".

It's just as well as you totally discredit yourself blaming victims

I am merely questioning the context of these types of situations. There is no point in hearing one side of an argument and making definitive conclusions based on it. Prevention is a much better tool than cure.

[edit on 20/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
I am sorry to hear this happened. It is unfortunate this occurred while you were shopping. I did not imply that you asked for it. THIS is a classic technique out of the Feminist manual.

You are lieing. You accused me of:

It sounds like you have hung around at some dodgy places and been surround by some drunk men. Not a good place to judge half the population now is it?

NOTHING I said would gave the impression that I hung around dodgy places or drunk men. You made a blatent attack on my personal and sexual charactor implying that I am "easy" and a possibly a drunk and that may have led to my negative experiences with some men. Much the same way a lawyer would accuse a rape victim of being a slut.

I am not going to bother debating with someone who takes such cheap shots.. worse still someone who makes veiled accusations then is too cowardly to admit to them and THEN has the audacity to say I'm playing some feminists handbook. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by riley]

Well riley, if that is how it must be, then so be it. It was not my intention to pass judgement on you or to attack your character. Unfortunately, this issue seems to strike a very strong emotional chord with you and I can see in your answers that you are not considering it with reason and logic, but rather emotion and distrust. That is fine, that is your right.

Just like you feel others have no right to judge you, you have no right to judge others. You don't know me or my history and experiences. You do not know the research I have done, the people I have spoken to, the situations I have and continue to go through.

If it helps you sleep better at night and makes you feel at peace, just call me a liar and continue to believe the fairytale that Feminism is about equal rights for women.


[edit on 20/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Well riley, if that is how it must be, then so be it. It was not my intention to pass judgement on you or to attack your character. Unfortunately, this issue seems to strike a very strong emotional chord with you and I can see in your answers that you are not considering it with reason and logic, but rather emotion and distrust. That is fine, that is your right.

Playing the "just an emotional female" card? Nice try.

You actually SAID that is sounds like I hang around dodgy places and drunk men. Own your own bad behaviour and stop blaming others for it.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by riley]

I have taken the discussion off topic and engaged in a range of other issues not entirely related to this thread.

If you want to discuss the issue of whether women-only holidays should be permitted or not, please let us discuss its implications.

Originally posted by riley
Playing the "just an emotional female" card? Nice try.

You actually SAID that is sounds like I hang around dodgy places and drunk men. Own your own bad behaviour and stop blaming others for it.

Fyi, not only women are emotional. I was not aware there was even a "just an emotional female" card in existence. I thought the current demand for the "race card" had used up most of the resources available.

Let me explain to you what has happened. In your original post, you stated this:

That is not propoganda that is FACT and I LOVE the fact that I can now go to a female only night at the local pool where I don't have to be worried about being oggled, groped or followed home.

That statement is what had me asking if you hang around dodgy places. None of the Pool places near me have men doing those things. None. I have never witnessed any of those things happen in the times I have gone there myself.

So, I was assuming because you did experience those things that you were most likely around drunk players and was questioning if maybe you should look at who you have a night out with and where you go.

I did not assume or imply that you were "one of those girls" like you are trying to make out now.

After you told me that it happened at a supermarket, I realised that these things didn't just happen at pool centres.

Now you are trying to make me feel bad by suggesting that I tried to label you in a negative manner to excuse the behaviour that you experienced. And the thread has been derailed.

[edit on 20/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by WishForWings
What is really wrong with this?

It's just an extended hens night really, I don't see sexism.

I'm a man, I know what men are like.

I personally can't blame those women, if they want to go in a women only tour group then who the hell cares?

It's safer, they feel more comfortable and in the end they'll probably have more fun.

lol!



I think its a great idea! Nothing more relaxing than sunbaking naked at the beach with no blokes around to perve & ruin the day! lol!

As for the supermarket, & anywhere else we'd wanna be, how nice not to have your man standing around inside the clothing shop looking bored, while your trying to spend up big on the VISA!!

Girl only holidays...............BRING IT ON!!


And what's the conspiracy in this, anyways????

reply to post by Dark Ghost


LoL. first you say you want to get back to dicussing the topic.. yet now you reply to me yet again. YOU further derailed the thread by saying it sounds like I hang around dodgy places and drunk men. "Dodgy place" means a place with a criminal element. You basically tried to paint me as a drunken slut or a whore. There was no mistaking what you meant.. you weren't that subtle about it.

I do NOT appreciate such attacks on my charactor.. nor to I appreciate your continued attempt to make me fold via unsolicitered U2U email or your attempts to backtrack and make out like I took you out of context. I was NOT in the wrong and I will NOT apologise for taking offense no matter how many times you demand it. You WERE offensive and I'm not going to pretend you weren't.

AGAIN:

NOWHERE did I even suggest I go to pubs or hang around drunk men.. that was a conclusion YOU leapt to; no doubt fuelled by your own bigotries. I did NOT take you out of context.

Now leave me alone and DROP IT.. I am not going to suddenly pretend you were in the right so stop stamping your feet.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by riley]

The irony that those groups that forced inclusionary policies down the throat of society demand exclusionary activities does not escape me. However, is it not time that we recognize the common sense reality that birds of a feather like to flock together and that the basic right to do so should be protected?

I'm torn.

OP, I understand your point. I even agree with the principal you are relaying. You are right; equality for women shouldn't be at the cost of the rights of men. And certainly not all men, or even a majority of men, act in boorish, unpleasant ways.

But there is another side to this argument, and one I feel very qualified to speak to. I survived a violent assault. The result? I've worked very hard to overcome an inherent distrust and fear of men. For a long time I feared being alone anywhere with a man....even men I knew. Even now, years later, I still get nervous around strangers.

I'm more conscious in the years since of just how vulnerable women can be. I'm also aware of how unpleasant and stressful it can be for women like me to try and travel or enjoy ourselves on vacation. Not because there are men ready to pounce everywhere we go.....but because we are so fearful and distrustful that we can't relax enough to enjoy the vacation. For women in these situations, a travel group for women-only would be a godsend.

I don't think the travel agent intended this group to be exclusionary to men because she believed men were evil, or not to be trusted. I think she saw a market for women who feel vulnerable, and thought to take advantage of that.

I, for one, would have used such a service in years past. Even now, though I've worked through a lot of my issues and fears, I would still feel more comfortable in such an environment.

That's just my take on things. Thanks for the interesting read, and the very legitimate points you bring up. I really appreciate hearing differing viewpoints.

Keep smiling,
smyleegrl

I don't see any problem with having a "women only" vacation. Or a "men only" vacation. Maybe men want to be assured of not having predatory women (cougars, etc) in their group. They just want to go out, be with the boys and do some old fashioned grunting and scratching... Or maybe they want to relax without being concerned with women in their group playing games and messing with their minds... as some women do...

As RockPuck said, there are men-only fraternities, women-only sororities. As long as men have equal access to the same thing, I don't see a problem. This is being taken too far. I disagree with this judge.

Originally posted by riley

LoL. first you say you want to get back to dicussing the topic.. yet now you reply to me yet again. YOU further derailed the thread by saying it sounds like I hang around dodgy places and drunk men. "Dodgy place" means a place with a criminal element. You basically tried to paint me as a drunken slut or a whore. There was no mistaking what you meant.. you weren't that subtle about it.

I don't know where you get your definition of dodgy, but when I use it I am NOT referring to any "criminal element". I did no such thing, you are just being dramatic. If I wanted to call you anything I would come out and say it. You may be a "strong, independent woman" but that does not automatically give you the moral high ground, and I am not afraid of you.

I do NOT appreciate such attacks on my charactor.. nor to I appreciate your continued attempt to make me fold via unsolicitered U2U email or your attempts to backtrack and make out like I took you out of context. I was NOT in the wrong and I will NOT apologise for taking offense no matter how many times you demand it. You WERE offensive and I'm not going to pretend you weren't.

There have been no attacks on your character, only self-created fantasies where you can take joy in playing the victim. The more you reply with these ridiculous diatribes, the more respect you will lose.

Unsolicited? Grow up. Anyone can send a message to anybody else on the forum, it is perfectly acceptable. All I was trying to do was make peace with you in private. I even apologised if anything I said did happen to offend you, which was much more than I needed to do.

AGAIN:

NOWHERE did I even suggest I go to pubs or hang around drunk men.. that was a conclusion YOU leapt to; no doubt fuelled by your own bigotries. I did NOT take you out of context.

Now leave me alone and DROP IT.. I am not going to suddenly pretend you were in the right so stop stamping your feet.

So, I must just stand back and not reply to your lies and accusations about me? How about you leave the thread and stop trying to derail the topic with your dreamed-up fantasies of victim hood.

Your replies on this thread and to my U2Us show me more about your true character than any assumptions ever could.

[edit on 21/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Ok guys please get of the topic of each other and stick to the topic at hand,
****Judge rules against women-only holidays ****


Any Post that are not related will be Off Topic'd from this point on,


Asala
Super Moderator,

yeah i've always had a problem with those Womens gyms that have popped up. Women only. yeah while i understand the concept and can accept that its a gym for women and they might fel more comfy going to a gym that only has members of the same sex. it's still blatant sexism. yes.

The thing is i heard a court case where there was a mens club and a woman wanted to join and so they went to court over it and the court ruled in favour of the woman getting let into the mens club.

Then all these womens only gyms start popping up and some male d00d wants to join, but is refused. Goes to court. Ruled in the favour of the womens gym. Man cant join.

It's blatant discrimination and double standards.