Intelligence Squared Debate - Is the Catholic Church a force for good in the World?

n October 2009, 2,500 people gathered at Westminster Central Hall for the Intelliegence Squared debate - The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.

Speaking for the motion, Archbishop John Onaiyekan and Anne Widdecombe MP. Speaking against the motion, NSS Honorary Associate Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry.

The voting gives a good idea of how it went. Before the debate, for the motion: 678. Against: 1102. Dont know: 346. This is how it changed after the debate. For: 268. Against: 1876. Dont know: 34. In other words, after hearing the speakers, the number of people in the audience who opposed the motion increased by 774.

Presented by Zeinab Badawi and broadcast November 7, 2009 on BBC World News.

Part 1/5

Hi Moo,

I am grateful most voters voted against the RC church.

I believe it is hypocritical and the cause of great suffering, as I have said in other posts.

I think all churches are misguided, even the well-meaning ones.

Originally posted by spellbound
Hi Moo,

I am grateful most voters voted against the RC church.

I believe it is hypocritical and the cause of great suffering, as I have said in other posts.

I think all churches are misguided, even the well-meaning ones.

Indeed, I totally agree, I recently watched that nutty Anne Widdicome debating the return of blasphemy laws.

When you have clowns like this in parliament there's something very wrong with society, although I bet she makes a nice trifle and I wouldn't object having a nice afternoon tea with her as she tried to convert me.

I recently be been arguing with another bunch of xtian goons at the department of eduction, christ you would not believe the amount of drivel that can come out of an old cardigans' mouth,. I'll be posting the outcome of this excursion into the religious twilight zone later as an addendum to my " Christianity I now declare war upon you" thread.

reply to post by moocowman


How's that funny sitcom or book coming on, Moo?

BUT - just because a lot of people and a lot of churches call themselves 'Christian' - please do not lump Christ in there with them. They do NOT follow the teachings of Christ.

He would be horrified - probably is.

Imo no religion in this world is a force for good. The only exception to this is buddhism. Buddism can be argued to be a religion but to those following it its a way of life and they dont consider budhism to be a religous thing but more spiritual,something other religions dont teach. They teach you to use your mind and dont docrinate you like christanity and islam does

[edit on 17-11-2009 by loner007]

reply to post by loner007


Yes, spirituality is what it is all about - not indoctrinated religions.

Star to you.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by moocowman

 

How's that funny sitcom or book coming on, Moo?

BUT - just because a lot of people and a lot of churches call themselves 'Christian' - please do not lump Christ in there with them. They do NOT follow the teachings of Christ.

He would be horrified - probably is.

Well I've been considering your your suggestion, mind you I tend to consider things erratically nevertheless you have place a thought in the corner of my swede.


I am deeply troubled by this "Followers of Christ" thing, it seems that every christian that I speak to or read claims to be this, many also claim to be "real christians" and he or she or they are not.


It is very difficult not to generalize, (something which I'm often accused of )when discussing Christianity , I've even heard xtians harping on about the fact that their not religious.


In order for me to determine what a christian is then logically I would ask "How does one become a christian?" the overwhelming response to this question has been-

"Accept Jesus as your savior/ redeemer and one and the same being as Yawhe" etc etc ,

Then comes the obvious question which is "how does one do this?"

The answers vary but ultimately revolve around studying the bibles, needless to say this heads straight into problem after problem.
So, when I speak of Christians I'm talking about people that subscribe to the idea that the bibles give a true account of events and characters contained within them.

I often ask xtians why aren't the words of the bibles jesus alone enough for you to live a decent fulfilling life, why does it make a difference whether this character was a god or not.

More often than not the replies are very strained, and make little sense.

One cannot help but observe that (to an outsider) the only differences between Christians is how they choose to cherry pick the bibles in order to fit their inability to critique.

reply to post by moocowman


OK,

Here it is.

True Christians follow the teachings of Christ (or try to - sometimes it is difficult).

But the teachings of Christ are simple.

Love your fellowman (okay - very difficult).

Be kind - easy actually.

Do not judge other people (difficult).

Love everyone (impossible).

So we are all going to fail.

Cheers!

reply to post by loner007

The only exception to this is buddhism. Buddism can be argued to be a religion but to those following it its a way of life and they dont consider budhism to be a religous thing but more spiritual

Could not this jesus (the one talked about in the gopsels) be considered to be doing the same thing, whether he was a real person or not?

It would appear that, it is only when this character is deified that the problems arise. It is quite interesting that there are similarities between the teachings of this jesus and Buddhism, which would perhaps give credence to the claims of the individual actually spending time in Tibet.

I feel the confusion/problems that surround the gospels appear to be caused by the later writers desperate attempts to make this character a god.

Perhaps if this was not done we may have passed down to us today a far greater volume and more accurate description of these teachings.

reply to post by spellbound

Love everyone (impossible)

Why so ? We are born in this state so why is it impossible ?

This has to be the most natural state of being, it's hard work trying to hate people, to quite honest the best I've managed yet is to be really mightily so pissed off that I could kick a gnu, and I'm an atheist.

I do so have problems with this hate thing, which I have been accused of time and again on ATS. Hm that is a weird one Spellbound the impossibility of of loving everyone.

reply to post by moocowman


OK,

Do you love everyone?

If you do, you are perfect, which no-one in the world is, so, no, you do not.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by moocowman

 

OK,

Do you love everyone?

If you do, you are perfect, which no-one in the world is, so, no, you do not.

What exactly is perfect ?

How do you define love ?

If someone falls down and you help pick them up do you do it out of love or hate ?

reply to post by moocowman


If you pick someone up it is not love, it is kindness - another one of Jesus's things.

I could turn you to Jesus couldn't I? I just have this feeling that I could.

reply to post by spellbound

If you pick someone up it is not love, it is kindness - another one of Jesus's things.

Kindness is an action is it not ? The impetus behind kindness is compassion and compassion is love = love in action .

I could turn you to Jesus couldn't I? I just have this feeling that I could.

Why on earth would you wish to do that ?

reply to post by moocowman


I too believe Jesus taught buddhism. During his missing years 16 to 30 i think it was Jesus was said to be learning from a place in or near Tibet. In tibet u can find strinkingly similarities like the prayer beads catholics use and they contain exactly the same number of beads. In fact there is one place that has records of someone from Israel visiting that place 2000yrs ago





[edit on 17-11-2009 by loner007]

reply to post by loner007


Yes - that makes a lot of sense -Jesus taught gentle and kind and so does Buddhism.

Originally posted by loner007
reply to post by moocowman

 

I too believe Jesus taught buddhism. During his missing years 16 to 30 i think it was Jesus was said to be learning from a place in or near Tibet. In tibet u canfind strinkingly similarities like the prayer beads catholics use and they contain exactly the same number of beads. In fact there is one place that has records of someone from Israel visiting that place 2000yrs ago



[edit on 17-11-2009 by loner007]

How about this for a scenario ?

Jesus a practicing Jew of Egyptian descent re instigating the Egyptian Resurrection cult of his forebears and claiming the throne ao Aketaten, goes into exile in Tibet and comes back with buddhist teachings.

I haven't figured out the chronology but there could be something there ImHO

reply to post by moocowman


Because I want to make more people aware of Jesus.

Or if you do not believe in Jesus, to follow His principles.

If the world did what Jesus said we would not have wars or any other suffering.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by moocowman

 

If you pick someone up it is not love, it is kindness - another one of Jesus's things.

I could turn you to Jesus couldn't I? I just have this feeling that I could.

Now there's a challenge! why dont you try, I's sure Moocowman would be up for it.

reply to post by spellbound


Does one have to follow Jesus to live by the priciples he reputedly taught ? I know that I do, altough I neither believe in him, nor in any other superior being. I am an atheist. As John Lennon said, My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I was raised a christian (and you will obviously say that it was not the "right" christian branch). In christianity, the only love I felt was that of self-mutilation, self-hate, and constant remorse. When I started questioning and stopped believing, it set me free, and allowed me to love.

Jesus is irrelevant. As is his message. Many others have carried a similar message and they were not christian, nor did they pretend to be the child of god. They just had a brain. You suldn't have to follow any belief or any man to be a decent human being. Decieving people with myths is not a good way to get humanity to act better.

[edit on 17-11-2009 by Ismail]