The History of the World According to the Ancient Vedic Scriptures

reply to post by serbsta


It seems fair to say, you are set in your opinion..., as am I.

Agree to disagree!

That is what debate and discussion is all about. Sharing viewpoints, along with respect for eachothers input.

Many thanks for the conversation. I am sure we will have some views that will meet in the future.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane

It seems fair to say, you are set in your opinion..., as am I.

Agree to disagree!

I can live with that.

Originally posted by Shane

Many thanks for the conversation. I am sure we will have some views that will meet in the future.

Looking forward to it.

Originally posted by Shane
Look at the Dogan of Africa. They knew and had rituals based on the Orbit of a Celestial Body which MODERN MAN had no idea about until the late 2000 Century. How?

Turns out that this stuff about the Dogon is not true.

Harte

I have not been posting here as of late, but on reading this thread, I was compelled to repost. This kind of topic is right up my alley, as my primary research is into Vedic stuff. A very good topic indeed Electric.

Some points I want to make, which are rather minor to be honest, but still essential.

On the theory that the 311,040,000,000,000 years of Brahma's lifetime is actually not year, but seconds. This is an interesting observation, but it is definitely false. The Hindu calender does actually specify years and not seconds for Brahma's lifetime, and this can be known for definite, because the Hindu calender also deals with seconds. It goes from very minute timeframes of a millionoth of a second which measure the life time of an atom to very massive timeframes of trillions of years to measure the life time of the cosmos.

The fact that this number neatly corresponds to seconds is because the numbers are mathematically derived, and hence we can find the number 311,040,000,000,000 occurring on smaller scales. Hinduism is particularly fond of mapping out the cosmos from the microcosm to the macrocosm and drawing relationships between them. This theme can be found across Hinduism.

The other point that I want to make is that the Hindu calender is not a Vedic text, but a post-vedic text. The time period of the cosmic cycles are of relatively recent origin, going to Puranic texts of which the earliest can be dated after the common era. The Puranas have been edited continueously from the earliest Puranas to the 16th century CE and beyond, so the Hindu calender could not reliably be dated as Vedic. It is entirely possible that the calender did exist in Vedic times, and was passed down in an oral tradition, but no evidence to support this hypothesis exists. This is why the Puranas cannot be validly dated to Vedic times. They are according to the evidence definitely post-vedic texts.

Some writers tend to use the term "Vedic" as an umbrella term for all Hindu literature. This is technically an incorrect use of the term, as not all Hindu writings were written in the Vedic era(conservatively dated by Western historians around 1000BCE; cf: Indian dating dates the Vedas to 6000BCE and beyond) The only true texts which correspond with the Vedic times are the Vedas, which consist of a wide corpus of texts known as the Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads.

This is followed by the class of texts known colletively as Smriti, which consists of Itihas(Mahabharata, Ramayana) and the Shastras(Scientific and law texts)

Up until this point Hinduism evolves within an Indian context only.After the common era, we have the Puranas which seem to be syncretic texts which combine various Indian and non-Indian traditions. Much later we have the class of texts known as the Tantras or Agamas, most of which are written in the South Indian non-vedic language of Tamil. It is during this period of after the common era, that Hinduism evolves its more polytheistic and mythological and devotional character. In Vedic times, Hinduism is a more spiritual and philosophical religion and post-vedic times it become more mythological and devotional. Although some scholars will assert that in very early Vedic times Hinduism was purely ritualistic, shamanic and polytheistic, this point is highly debatable and based only on Western translations of the Rig Veda and prejudiced interpretations. Indian translations, on the other hand, show that even the early Vedics were spiritual and philosophical through and through, and Western translations are based on faulty reading methods and improper understanding and application of Sanskrit grammar.

Regarding evidence for advanced technological civilisations. The best evidence I find, and I have argued this before on ATS, is the textual evidence itself which suggests a level of advancement of philosophical and scientific thought which is impossible for primitive people. The Vedics were not strangers to ideas like energy-fields, multidimensional and holographic universes, computing, atoms, microbes, genetics and quarks etc, and this is evinced on reading the scientific texts in the Sanskrit tradition where they are explicitly mentioned. The greatest evidence is the Sanskrit language itself, which still is the most advanced language on the planet, even ahead of formal computer languages.

The mytho-hisotrical texts are actually weaker evidence, because although they mention many things which seem fantastic for ancient people like flying vehicles, weapons of mass destruction, these can be explained as imagination. But the explicit mentions of things like microbes and atoms etc, cannot be explained as imagination. It suggests real scientific knowledge.

[edit on 1-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by Harte


Well, nice to hear from you my friend.

Since you offered, I thought I would share some links for review.

theshancreekgang.nstemp.com...
www.crystalinks.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

I beleive what you seem to accept as dismissive arguements are discussed in the Wiki Link.

Of course accepting one side or another is totally upto the one's point of view. I see the narative in one manner, while you see it in your own manner.

But despite this, It would be a treat if you offered links to confirm your assertions with.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by win 52

According to science....monkeys can't build cities.

I'd like to read that paper.

Can I find it at Google Scholar, or did you just make that up like most of the stuff in every post you write?

Harte
[edit on 11/24/2009 by Harte]

Care to share a link to constructions made by monkeys Harte?

Never seen then, I'm really curious to see what they are capable of.

Originally posted by Harte

Turns out that this stuff about the Dogon is not true.

Harte

Which parts exactly, and who says this?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Regarding evidence for advanced technological civilisations. The best evidence I find, and I have argued this before on ATS, is the textual evidence itself which suggests a level of advancement of philosophical and scientific thought which is impossible for primitive people.

Thanks for the insightful post. You make a solid point right there.

Originally posted by thomas_

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by win 52

According to science....monkeys can't build cities.

I'd like to read that paper.

Harte

Care to share a link to constructions made by monkeys Harte?

Never seen then, I'm really curious to see what they are capable of.

Of course I have none. Also of course, I didn't claim that "According to science, monkeys can build cities."

If science has weighed in on this issue, I would be interested in reading the published work, as (apparently) would you.

Originally posted by Shane
reply to post by Harte

 

Well, nice to hear from you my friend.

Thank you, Shane. Same to you.

Of course accepting one side or another is totally upto the one's point of view. I see the narative in one manner, while you see it in your own manner.

In other words, you believe in spite of the fact that there is no reason to believe.

That's fine with me. As you said, it's a point of view. One which I hold to be supremely illogical.

As for links, Bad Astronomy okay for you (and the others?)

It's a little more info than the wiki page.

Harte

reply to post by serbsta

I think there is a failing to communicate the degree of precision that is attributed to these structures and in particular the Great Pyramid of Cheops. Let me see if I can remember all of this.


The specific angles of the descending and ascending shafts and how true these angles and shaft dimensions remain throughout their length.
The degree of level of the base of the pyramid even though the granite rock that it is built upon has a mound in the center. There is said to be a 1/4 inch difference of level throughout the entire base and this could easily be the result of thousands of years of seismic activity.
The ratio of base to height of the structure and the dimensions of the chambers inside, including the 'sarcophagus', that show knowledge of the circumference of a circle (Pi), the golden ratio (Phi), known weights and measures that are still used today, three of the lengths of an Earth year (Tropical, Sidereal and Anomalistic), alignment connection to some stars and to the cardinal points of our compass exacting a 'true' North alignment. The intentional alignment to some of the stars is controversial but all the rest has been measured and recorded.
I also find it very interesting that this pyramid is a scaled down model of the area of Earth's Northern hemisphere (These builders have squared the circle and cubed the sphere!!). This idea shows the measurements of Earth's Longitude, Latitude and the circumference of the equator.

I fail to see how these connections can be arbitrary on our part or that they are somehow merely coincidental. The understanding of the implications of these measurements is what I feel we should strive towards not their dismissal and suppression.

This is just some of the stuff that I remember, I know there is much more, and all of this was done by people that were "supposed" to be ignorant pagan worshipers. The knowledge that these structures contain was put into them at a time before our modern understanding of the same by thousands of years. I believe that we have not even uncovered half of the knowledge that is contained within these ancient ruins.

Here are links to some of my sources.
Secrets of the Great Pyramids, by Peter Tompkins
The Great Pyramid: Observatory, Tomb and Temple, By Richard Anthony Proctor
The Origin Map, By Thomas G. Brophy

Prelude to the Pyramids, Ken Klien Production (25 min Video)

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
On the theory that the 311,040,000,000,000 years of Brahma's lifetime is actually not year, but seconds. This is an interesting observation, but it is definitely false. The Hindu calender does actually specify years and not seconds for Brahma's lifetime, and this can be known for definite, because the Hindu calender also deals with seconds.

It would be simple to assume that this is a miss-translation from years to seconds but if what you state is true then this becomes very interesting indeed, perhaps even beyond imagination (at least my imagination). This means that our current measure of 'Seconds' is a scaled commensurate to the measure of billions of years.
My imagination is telling me that these could be the measurements of Solar oscillations, inter-galactic motions and galactic rotations.

ADD; If this is true then this means that a derivative of Earth's rotation (second) is commensurate to the rotation of our galaxy. Since the origin of the 360 degree circle (1 year), 60 minutes and 60 seconds, 12 hours on a clock (circle) and 12 months per year (again a circle) and the motions of our galaxy that are all directly linked together from an unknown source that dates back beyond recorded history is completely mind blowing.

The understanding of the celestial motions that we make trough the cosmos is something I have spent much time on with enthusiasm and to see this connection from ancient knowledge of unknown origin is truly intriguing.

Some writers tend to use the term "Vedic" as an umbrella term for all Hindu literature. This is technically an incorrect use of the term,

I'm glad you pointed this out because I found it difficult to categorize the origin of the knowledge from these writings and this sums it up for me nicely. Now I better understand my difficulty.

Regarding evidence for advanced technological civilisations. The best evidence I find, and I have argued this before on ATS, is the textual evidence itself which suggests a level of advancement of philosophical and scientific thought which is impossible for primitive people.

This is a great point and one that has been overlooked yet cannot be denied. In fact it seems that this is too blatant and thus is the reason given for why it is overlooked and ignored. The same happens with the structures found around the world that were built, the sophistication and level of advanced knowledge that was put into the construction of these structures is "too" obvious and therefore dismissed as evidence. To me this is a slap in the face to those that believe these ancient civilizations were inferior to us today (The evidence is blatantly obvious but still it cannot be seen by those that refuse to look at it).

[edit on 12/2/2009 by Devino]

It would be simple to assume that this is a miss-translation from years to seconds but if what you state is true then this becomes very interesting indeed, perhaps even beyond imagination (at least my imagination). This means that our current measure of 'Seconds' is a scaled commensurate to the measure of billions of years.
My imagination is telling me that these could be the measurements of Solar oscillations, inter-galactic motions and galactic rotations.

ADD; If this is true then this means that a derivative of Earth's rotation (second) is commensurate to the rotation of our galaxy. Since the origin of the 360 degree circle (1 year), 60 minutes and 60 seconds, 12 hours on a clock (circle) and 12 months per year (again a circle) and the motions of our galaxy that are all directly linked together from an unknown source that dates back beyond recorded history is completely mind blowing.

The understanding of the celestial motions that we make trough the cosmos is something I have spent much time on with enthusiasm and to see this connection from ancient knowledge of unknown origin is truly intriguing.

It is definitely possible that the Hindu calender is measuring cosmic cycles like galactic rotations and solar oscillations. It is already unambigious that the lifetime of Brahma corresponds to the lifetime of the entire cosmos of 311,040,000,000,000 years, so there is a clue there the Hindu calender is measuring something cosmic. The other clue is, the Hindu calender explicitly mentions "Divya-yugas(cosmic cycles) as opposed to ordinary yugas. The timeframes correspond roughtly in the same magnitude to the age of the planet(4.32 billion years) which will exist for another 4.32 billion years for a total of 8.64 billion years and then the planet will die. The 4.32 billion years of our planet is known as the day phase, the remaining 4.32 billion years is known as the night-phase of the planet, which can rougly be interpreted to mean the dying phase. In the day phase of 4.32 billion years there will be 14 Manvantaras(age of man) each one lasts for 306,720,000 years. This interesingly corresponds to roughly the time it takes for the sun to cycle around the galactic centre, if this is indeed what a manvantara is measuring, then modern calculations are slightly off wrt to Hindu calculations for this cycle. It is also curious that the lifetime of the dinosaurs roughly corresponds to approx 300 million years. This fits in perfectly with the Hindu calender theory that each Manvantara is populated by a different race, which is destroyed at the end of the cycle.

There are also sub-cycles within a Manvantara, which may refer to more terrestrial events. Each Manvatara is divided in 71 caturyugas(quadrant cycles) of 4.32 million years each, which comprise a set of a golden, silver, bronze and iron age. It is likely these can also be correated to astronomical cycles, but my knowledge of astronomy is too limited to draw parallels.

It really is very curious why the Hindu calender deals with such large and minute numbers, as it is clear it is not measuring just human events and the certainty with which they assign these numbers does suggest they are derving these numbers through some calculations on some data, that now seems to be lost. There is another curious reference found in the commentary of 10th century commentaor on a Rig Veda hymn, where the commentator randomly includes a comment on the "speed of the sun" given in classical units, which corresponds with great accuracy to the modern value of the speed of light. There is a good paper online that discusses this by Subhah Kak(Google Subhash Kak, speed of light in the Vedas) Again, if it is true, then it suggests some older data from which the commentator was citing, which again appears to be lost. It could very well be of Vedic origin.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
I wonder if the key to how the universe works itself is the cycle we measure as "time" and there are parralel dimensions when we speed time up or slow it down. Sort of like the shutter speed on a camera.

very, very close my friend.

AWESOME thread, starred and flagged and working on ready everyone's posts.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by win 52

According to science....monkeys can't build cities.

I'd like to read that paper.

Can I find it at Google Scholar, or did you just make that up like most of the stuff in every post you write?

Harte


[edit on 11/24/2009 by Harte]

Do you have any information that proves otherwise, or do you think there will be a study on the cities monkeys have built?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
There are also sub-cycles within a Manvantara, which may refer to more terrestrial events. Each Manvatara is divided in 71 caturyugas(quadrant cycles) of 4.32 million years each, which comprise a set of a golden, silver, bronze and iron age. It is likely these can also be correated to astronomical cycles, but my knowledge of astronomy is too limited to draw parallels.

I would like to ask you what your thoughts are on Sri Yukteswar's-, "The Holy Science", and in particular to the four descending and same ascending ages of man. I believe that this connects the four ages to the astrological wheel of the zodiac and Earth's precession of the equinoxes. This is said, by Sri Yukteswar, to be a 24,000 year cycle that effects the level of human consciousness. We are told that currently Earth's precession is on a 25,920 year cycle but this could be different due to an elliptical motion (i.e. Kepler's Law). I feel that there is knowledge to be gained here but some of these numbers are off and thus I cannot make sense of it.

reply to post by Devino


Well bear in my mind my knowledge on astronomy and astrology is very limited, so my opinion on Sri Yuketswar's theory on the Yugas is based on my limited understanding. I recently read a very good book on 2012, which discussed the various calenders from different culture. There is a section discussing the Hindu yuga system, Sri Yuketsar's theory and the refutation of his theory of by Michael Cremo. In the end, I agreed more with Michael Cremo than I did Yuketwsar.

Yuketwsar claims that the traditional Hindu calender of assigning vast numbers for the ages to be based on wrong calculations somewhere along the way, and these wrong calculations were perpetuated. He argues actually the ancient astronomical tradition knew about the precession of the Equionox and the cycles actually represented ascending and descending cycles of the equinox. He then proceeds to arbitarily define when Kali yuga ended and we started the descending cycle, by corresponding it to the Western age of reason.

Cremo argues that Yuketswar has no evidence to suggest that the Hindu calender is in error and is suppose to be based on the precession of the equinox. Accounting for precession of the equinox is not required in Vedic astronomy, because it is sideral system, which means it measures the constellations based on their original positions. It appears Yuketsar is simply uneasy with the vast numbers, and decideds to arbitarily shorten them to make the next golden age come sooner. Many new-age interpreters of the Hindu Yuga system are guilty of the same, as they try to make its golden age correspond to the Mayan 2012, when actually according to the Hindu system the iron age still has another 427,000 years to go before the Golden age restarts. However, it is possible that the precession of the equinox cycle can be incorporated into the Yuga system as a smaller cycle.

The Hindu calender does not seem that focussed on human events, but more on celestial(divya) events. So it would make sense why it measures with such vast scales. If Yuketswar's theory is correct that the Yuga system is meauring the revolution of our solar system around the central sun, then his figure of 24,000 years cannot be correct, as modern scientific estimates say it is about 250 million years. However, the traditional Hindu calender would be more closer because it estimates one manvantra to be just over 300 million years.

I found this today and it reminded me of our conversation: www.mahanbharat.net...

Time is measured with the help of of 4 Mandala's: Chandra, Pruthvi, Surya, and Parmeshthi. Each Mandala denotes the time required for a revolution around its parent.

•Chandra Mandala: is revolution of the Moon around the Earth. Time it measures is a Month.
•Pruthvi Mandala: is revolution of the Earth around the Sun. Time it measures is a Year.
•Surya Mandala: is revolution of the Sun around the Centre of the Milky Way. Time it measures is a Manvantar. @300 million years (by modern sciences this figure is @250 million years)
•Parmeshthi Mandala: is revolution of the Milky Way around Brahmanda (Universe?) Time it measures is a Kalpa 8.7 billion years.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by PhotonEffect


Actually, it should be common knowledge by now (but sadly isn't), that the Great Pyramid was in fact created from man made concrete. The person who discovered this is a Nobel winning scientist, and he wrote a brilliant book on the subject. His thesis has since been independently verifed through both scanning microscopes and by re-creating the process. The change between the old way of building pyramids and the new way (quarrying) is linked to a fundamental change in the Egyptians religious understanding of how man was created.

I encourage everyone to look into this. Human kind created this concrete, and designed that amazing structure with the materials availible (it took know how, not high tech). And as the stones were actually cast in place, it explains all manner of their miraculous smoothness and tight fittedness. The theory is really air tight, yet it upset the historians so much that they literally walked out as he was speaking when he first presented his theory. And every few years someone else comes up w/ yet another stupid ramp theory, when the answer has been known since the 1970's. A sad commentary on how we deal with knowledge...

These sites should get you started. His book is very worth the read as well, there really is no question how they were made.... www.geopolymer.org...
www.timesonline.co.uk...

My God all I can say is excellent. Just a great study. SnF Thank you for posting so much information on this very interesting subject.

This should keep me out of trouble a while.

My first thought was Mel Brooks but it quickly vanished as I started to read the thread.

Good job.

Fascinating thread.

Bookmarking for further review and bumping in case anyone else is interested.