America Bombed Her own Ships?....Pearl Harbour Revisited

As I posted on a thread about 6mths ago; my grandfather was a WWII vet, and told many interesting stories about the war years.
One tale that my grandfather told many times to me growing-up, was that America allowed her own ships to be bombed during WWII; giving her the 'green-light' to enter the war.
Being 10 or so years old, I only imagined that I knew what he was saying.

When I posted this comment; I was met with staunch opposition. There where many whom where at great odds with the idea presented behind this tale, if it should be fact?

Here are 4 infamous U.S. false flags for the ATS thinker:
WWI: The sinking of the Lusitiania.

World War I, 1914-1918: A U-boat torpedo hit ocean liner Lusitania near Britain and some 1200 people, including 128 Americans, on board lost their lives. Subsequent investigations revealed that the major explosions were inside the Lusitania, as it was secretly transporting 6 million pounds of artillery shells and rifle ammunition, as well as other explosives on behalf of Morgan banking corporation to help their clients, the Britain and the France. It was against US laws to transport war materials and passengers in the same ship.

WWII: Pearl Harbour; Australian Intelligence informed he U.S.military to the presence of the Japanese, 3 days before the attack.

World War 2, 1939-1945: A U-boat torpedo hit the ocean liner Athenia near Britain with some 1100 passengers, of which 311 were Americans. The sea was calm and only 118 people on board lost their lives. The ship was sunk because it behaved like a military transport, blackened out and zigzagging. This incident wasn't enough to precipitate war, and the Germans also refused to be provoked by several American acts of war. Americans confiscated German merchant ships, and Americans started to support the British with various lend-lease items, US volunteer pilots joined the RAF and some RAF pilots were trained in the US, US gave the British 50 old but usable WW1 destroyers and 20 modern torpedo boats, tanks, light bombers, fighter aircraft like P-40s and so on. American destroyers also escorted the convoys bound to Britain, and attacked German U-boats even far away from those convoys. The US did not maintain a neutral stance attitude towards the warring nations. The US naval intelligence, chief of Japan desk planned and suggested "8 insults", which should bring Japan into war with the US. President Roosevelt executed this plan immediately and also added some other insults, enraging the Japan. The most serious one was a total blockade of Japanese oil imports, as agreed between the Americans, British and the Dutch. FDR also declared an all-out embargo against the Japan and forbade them the use of Panama canal, impeding Japan's access to Venezuelan oil. The Flying Tigers volunteer air group successfully fighting the Japanese in China with some 90 fairly modern P-40Bs was another effective provocation that is not generally acknowledged by historical accounts of World War 2, most of which fail to mention any air combat action prior to 7th December 1941. But at that time the Japanese had already had lost about 100 military aircraft, mostly bombers, to the Tigers. After Pearl Harbor these squadrons were some of the the hardest-hitting ones in the US service. The attack on Pearl Harbour followed some 6 months later. Having broken the Japanese encryption codes, the Americans knew what was going to happen, when and where, but the president did not dispatch this information to Pearl Harbor. Americans even gave their friends the British 3 Magic decrypting machines which automatically opened encrypted Japanese military traffic. But this same information was not available to the commanders of Hawaii. The movement of the fleet was also visible in the very effective radio direction finding network. Japan had an alliance with Germany, and the Germans upheld their promises by declaring the war against the USA right after the Japanese declaration. Two scapegoats, the navy commander Admiral Husband Kimmel, and the army commander Lt. General Walter Short were found incompetent and demoted as they were allowed to retire. Short died 1949 and Kimmel 1958. In 1995, the US Congress re-examined this decision and endorsed it. Then in 2000 some archive information came to light and the US Senate passed a resolution stating that both hadserved in Hawaii "competently and professionally". In 1941 they were denied vital information, and even on presidential orders purposefully mislead into believing that the Japanese feet could be expected from the southwest. These commanders have yet to be rehabilited by the Pentagon.

The Vietnam War. The Tonkin Incident.

Vietnam War: "The Tonkin incident", where American destroyer Maddox was supposedly attacked twice by three North Vietnamese torpedo boats in 1964 in the Gulf of Tonkin never happened. What was happening at the time were aggressive South Vietnamese raids against the North in the same general area. Huge American presence wasn't decisive and President Nixon negotiated a "peace with honour" 1973. This war was lost, when the North Vietnam finally conquered South Vietnam 1975.

And of coarse, the one we all know of here on ATS as a day to day discussion-9/11.

The discussion is ours, yet the references I have given can be seen with many other examples, in entirity with the link for the article:



Respect goes out to all servicemen/woman; that have unselfishly given their lives to a higher ideal of preserving their values and homelands; unfortunately the New World Order has long been perpetuated ( Look at the U.S. dollar bill)- the lie runs deep, its time we all woke-up.

[edit on 11/16/2009 by KRISKALI777]

The problem lies in the way you are labelling the perpetrators. A small faction of people who live in the USA or were born there does not constitute saying things like "America bombed her own ships". An unfortunate habit in modern times is to blame and shame the USA for everything the bad elements in her government and/or intelligence agencies based in the country have done. The real bad guys are TPTB and they have no genuine allegiance to any nation, only those that help serve their agenda.

[edit on 16/11/2009 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by KRISKALI777


To think that a country would bomb its own ships is just like thinking a country would bomb its own towers.

Unfortunately, I think this did happen, in both cases. Always listen to trusted people who have been there.

In both cases, it is utterly appalling.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


O.K then; would it be safe to say then that individuals enlisted within the 'American' military, where American?
I am not really sure what problem you have with this statement?
Is it because I refer to America as a female entity?
Whether you have a problem with this assumption; which I have provided cross-reference, or whether you find this an insult to service people (then please see my conclusive comment!).
I am sure it will be no problem in giving you more resources from 'academics' spheres (if this is what you rely upon).
I will reiterate my point; service people mean well, but are duped by their Govts. Some do it as an extreme job; nothing more. Either way, the living service people have my utmost respect- the fallen 'LEST WE FORGET'!!!!
We all see the lie everyday on news broadcasts and various media; some of us live with the fact we have lost loved ones to the lie.

Maybe I should have said America ALLOWED her own ships to be bombed; a bit like letting your baby play on a busy road.

[edit on 11/16/2009 by KRISKALI777]

reply to post by spellbound


How ya doin' Spell?
Yeah well; timed implosions, explosions, eye witness accounts, angular sawed steel trusses, blah, blah, blah.......do I really need to go on???
Anyone on these boards that doesn't have a little more knowledge about 9/11 than the average brainwashed 'null', should do a bit of thread-archive reading; or simply just wait- it doesn't take long before a new and juicy 9/11 thread springs up!
As for the the other examples sited; ie: the Lusitania, Tonkin Incident etc. there is a miriad of material available.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Hi Kris,

I am great - how are you?

The sad fact is that humans have been betraying humans since the beginning, and continue to do so.

Never trust a person you don't know - trust an animal (who hopefully is not going to eat you).

reply to post by spellbound


No I don't trust people I don't know, let alone many that I do know.
Its a shame we can't trust the leaders we elect.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by KRISKALI777

 

To think that a country would bomb its own ships is just like thinking a country would bomb its own towers.

Unfortunately, I think this did happen, in both cases. Always listen to trusted people who have been there.

In both cases, it is utterly appalling.

the biggest part of the tragedy of 9/11 (for me) is losing my delusional view that "most" people are basically good. at least in terms of the power structure (worldwide) i think most people are not basically good, and I still wonder how people are able to forgive/forget gov't and organized religion #fails yet have a hard time forgiving acquaintances and family

From what I know, on february 7 1932, the US navy did exercises off the coast of Pearl Harbor where two US aircrafts carriers mounted attacks on Pearl Harbor at dawn... The defense never detected the planes, many warships were destroyed...The name of the exercise was Grand Joint Exercise 4. The EXACT scenario that happened in 1942.

The defense was caught napping. No opposition was there. When the US planes were in the air, the attack was over... then they went back on the ground, then a new attack came in...

The whole exercise was a total failure. Of course it was brushed aside, saying that it would be impossible in real life, the planes would never be able to reach their objectives and that the attackers would face severe losses.... that didn't matter to the kamikazes...

IMO the japanese generals knew what they were doing, they studied US military exercises... And from other documents I read, from declassified Soviet Union intelligence documents, Japan started planning to invade China back in 1931-1932...

So me thinks, during this period, they sure acknowledged the fact that sooner or later the US would enter the war... and they tried to find ways to counter that... In 1932, with this US exercise, the Japanese generals found the perfect scenario for their attack...they did not have to think about it, the pentagon had thought of it for them.

reply to post by KRISKALI777

America Bombed Her own Ships?....Pearl Harbour Revisited

I guess I have heard this theory offered for as long as I could read. It has been my opinion that much of it is pointless conjecture that has been fueled by what are now ancient political axes to grind.

First, my bonafides include my father who fought under MacArthur in the Pacific theater and second, my brother's father who was a B-17 pilot and died in March of 1944 over Germany. We both grew up with this war being a major piece of our family legacy. There is definitely a familiarity factor.

Immediately prior to the US entering the war, our military was just getting a good start in reinventing itself. Leading up to this point in time, our army was a laughable collection of units that trained using wooden machine guns and trucks that carried signs that said 'Tank'.

The Army Air Corps (which preceded the Air Force) were flying good aircraft but still, no match for the high performance planes being fielded by either Germany or Japan.

The US Navy was probably the only one of the services that had been maintained but they too suffered from torpedoes that didn't work, star shells that didn't illuminate and the ridiculous notion that the Japanese were poor of sight and ignorant of mind.

These were all very entrenched practices and beliefs. The very thought of Japan being capable of doing such a fine job at destroying our fleet was laughed at before it was even considered.

Now, bearing in mind this condition that our armed forces were in... and the general mind set that simply had no grasp of reality, I personally have no problem believing that Japan pulled the Pearl Harbor attacks off without any internal conspiracy in Washington.

Moreover, it is an insult, I think, to the Imperial Japanese Navy to suggest that they were not capable or somehow, only succeeded because we turned to look the other way.

They were, for a brief moment in time; their time, the undisputed masters of the seas and the Orient... but not masters of their fate after Pearl Harbor.

But like all conspiracy theories, this one that includes a four-term president and a New Deal that went against the grain of business as usual, survives so long as their are those who will embrace what has been handed down through the years.

Thanks for the topic... and sorry about the extended reply

Edit: Typos

[edit on 16-11-2009 by redoubt]

A close friend of mine had told me a story backing up what your grandfather stated. A friend of his was in California working as a reporter. A month prior to the bombing he was asked to go to Hawaii for a big story but was not told what it was.

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by KRISKALI777

 

America Bombed Her own Ships?....Pearl Harbour Revisited

I guess I have heard this theory offered for as long as I could read. It has been my opinion that much of it is pointless conjecture that has been fueled by what are now ancient political axes to grind.

First, my bonafides include my father who fought under MacArthur in the Pacific theater and second, my brother's father who was a B-17 pilot and died in March of 1944 over Germany. We both grew up with this war being a major piece of our family legacy. There is definitely a familiarity factor.

Immediately prior to the US entering the war, our military was just getting a good start in reinventing itself. Leading up to this point in time, our army was a laughable collection of units that trained using wooden machine guns and trucks that carried signs that said 'Tank'.

The Army Air Corps (which preceded the Air Force) were flying good aircraft but still, no match for the high performance planes being fielded by either Germany or Japan.

The US Navy was probably the only one of the services that had been maintained but they too suffered from torpedoes that didn't work, star shells that didn't illuminate and the ridiculous notion that the Japanese were poor of sight and ignorant of mind.

These were all very entrenched practices and beliefs. The very thought of Japan being capable of doing such a fine job at destroying our fleet was laughed at before it was even considered.

Now, bearing in mind this condition that our armed forces were in... and the general mind set that simply had no grasp of reality, I personally have no problem believing that Japan pulled the Pearl Harbor attacks off without any internal conspiracy in Washington.

Moreover, it is an insult, I think, to the Imperial Japanese Navy to suggest that they were not capable or somehow, only succeeded because we turned to look the other way.

They were, for a brief moment in time; their time, the undisputed masters of the seas and the Orient... but not masters of their fate after Pearl Harbor.

But like all conspiracy theories, this one that includes a four-term president and a New Deal that went against the grain of business as usual, survives so long as their are those who will embrace what has been handed down through the years.

Thanks for the topic... and sorry about the extended reply

Edit: Typos

[edit on 16-11-2009 by redoubt]

i read ATS for post like this. unbiased, wise, and actual. you have my respect.

as for the topic, i know of someone on here who will give you link after link and call it an argument. he will claim to have everyone debunked by using material directly from govt sites( like NASA). then idiots will thank him, but idiots think alike. expect him, and laugh at him, secretly of course.

Growing up in the fifties my best friend’s father used to tell us his “war stories”. In 1941 he was in the army on Oahu assigned to perimeter protection of navy ships in Pearl Harbor. The weekend of December 5,6 and 7 he was supposed to have leave as the navy was taking the fleet out for maneuvers. After the Aircraft Carriers left earlier that week. the navy delayed the rest of the fleet in harbor until after the weekend to give the crews a little extra R&R in port. Walt’s leave was cancelled and he was sitting in a rowboat just off the bow of one of the ships (I have forgotten the name of the boat) on Sunday morning when the first wave of bombers came in.

Until his dying day he insisted the navy thought the only ships in the 7th fleet worth keeping were the carriers. The rest were worth more as scarp than as fighting machines. He always figured FDR wanted in and this was a nice “pawn sacrifice” to jump start the game.

The only person Walt had a lower opinion of than FDR was MacArthur “That cowardly dog who abandoned his men under fire shouting ‘I’ll be back’ over his shoulder as he ran for cover”.

The United States bombed it's own ships? What pray is your evidence of this? Or that they allowed Japan, for some unfathomable reason, or reasons; to do so?

Really? Do you realize that the Pearl Harbour attack is one of the most looked at events of the Second World War? I personally own half a dozen works that research the event, from both sides of the Pacific. How many govt. officials would have had to be in the know? Military officers of impeccable character would have had to have known. Long time officers had careers destroyed that day, they would have had to have been in the "know"...

I think maybe you need to go back and take a longer look at this...

True there was some evidence that the Japanese were up to something...that much was known... Intelligence officers "knew" something was coming down the road at them...they didn't know where, or when. Suspicions? Oh, yes...lots of them. Hawaii, the Philippines, even California and Panama.

Remember, America was just beginning to shrug off a bout with isolationism and still recovering from the Great Depression. The mindset of the military and their civilian overseers was still very much peace at almost any price... Japan had been at war in China for several years already, and were vastly more ready for war than were their American counterparts...

On one side, you've got a country still reeling from the Great Depression though recovering; with a military that is still a generation behind the best the world has to offer militarily (though blind to that in regard to Japan). On the other, you've got a nation rabidly imperialistic who is fighting a war in mainland Asia against China, and preparing to head south into Indochina and Micronesia, with Australia ripe for the plucking (in their eyes), as well.

With this in mind, Japan knows that to do this, all they need do is delay the US Navy long enough to conquer the areas wanted, then sit back behind "the ribbon defense" of atolls and island fortresses.

How to do it, though?

The Brits, oddly enough, showed how to do it, in 1940 with an attack on Taranto against several Italian battleships. They used two aircraft carriers and succeeded in sinking and damaging four modern Italian battleships.

Yamamoto, commander of the Imperial Japanese Navy, saw this and had a brainstorm...

Six aircraft carriers, several hundred aircraft... viola, no US navy...

When the smoke had cleared, the US battleline had been savaged. It's Pacific airforce virtually eradicated...and many sailors and airmen, soldiers and marines killed...

Had the powers that be in Washington known before hand of an attack on Pearl Harbour, would they not have been better served by warning the commanders on the scene in time to defend themselves? The war would still have started... An unsuccessful attack is still causus belli, every bit as much as a successful one...

They knew, yet they didn't know... Too many trees kept them from seeing the forest, if you will...

Oddly how history parallels, isn't it? Much the same thing occured in the runup to the Trade Center attack.

Too much information, not enough skilled readers to interpret the info...

reply to post by KRISKALI777



I do tend to agree, that we allowed ourselves to be brought into both World Wars, That is a proven historical fact. I am still up in the air about the Gulf of Tonkin, being that we were still there.

However the Mexican war is also shown to be one were the American Government allowed to be dragged into a war but this time it was by Southern Democrats, who wanted to expand Slave states.

The Spanish American War was stupidity, not a false flag as you would say. The USS Maine, blow up because of the way the shells and powder were stored, not because of Spanish or American interference. Stupidity started that war..

9-11 was not a false flag, it was a terrorist attack that the Feds knew was going to happen. To the extent of what they knew, is still in the air. I feel they knew how and the who, but not the when.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Knowing a WWII vet/ Pearl Harbor Survivor, He said there was talk of an attack at any moment by the Japs.

Why didn't they prepare.

Larry Demlow (Spelling on his last night might be off, I'll find the real spelling and give his full name here, He passed away just this past year, was a great man, and an even greater American!)

reply to post by seagull


I agree with you for the most part except this, before the attack our carrier fleet was out to sea on a training exercise.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was one of sure luck and stupidity on Americas part. We had just started to install Radar, two privates seen the massive blimps known as the Jap air force coming in, the reported it but it was shrugged off. This lead to a almost divesting blow on our pacific Fleet. Round two of the attack was fought off with not as much damage.

The japs did catch us with our pants down, but our carriers were out to sea, so that attack was not successful in my eyes. Now if they would have done it earlier and caught our carrier fleet the war in the pacific would have gone differently .

It is of my opinion that the US Government wanted a war with Japan, maybe not Germany but they wanted one with Japan. Hitler made a mistake by declaring war against us, if he had not and allowed the Japs to face us WWII, would have ended with Hitler owning Europe and large amounts of Africa, and the Middle East. The US would have ended up owning Australia, Japan, and Much of the pacific.

I would also like to point out the eventual Hitler would have came for America, But I think America would have taking over Canada, Mexico and all of South America. This is a stretch but if you recall there was still a part of America that wanted Latin America, and Canada. Some Americans were still pissed that we diddnt out right take Mexico over after the US/Mexican War... That’s my take on it.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


It was, and it wasn't, the carriers as you correctly pointed out were, most fortunately, out to sea; training and ferrying aircraft to several outer islands bases...

...and the Japanese missed what should have been their prime target, the Oil Farm... Had that been destroyed? The war's first few months would have been waged from San Diego, and would have been a longer slog because of it.

I was typing off the cuff here a little bit... ...and sometimes the memory isn't what I'd like it to be.... Thanks for reminding me of the aircraft carriers not being there...I'd actually forgotten them *banging head on desk*...

This is also in the movie Zeitgeist.

There is also Zeitgeist - Addendum which I havent seen but will see tonight.


[edit on 16-11-2009 by Copernicus]

reply to post by SirPatrickHenry


There were several war warnings issued, all in November '41 I believe, by the War Dept. General Short, and Admiral Kimmel, were directed to take all actions they deemed necessary to protect the Islands... They did so. But you can't keep soldiers and sailors, especially in peacetime, on alert indefinitely.

A peacetime mindset, and bad timing on the war warnings, and viola, you've the makings of a disaster... But as poedxsoldiervet rightly pointed out, it could have, and should have, been much worse.

Think about this, if you will...

The war warning is spot on target, Dec. 7th. The Pacific Fleet sorties to fight the oncoming Kido Butai, north of the Hawaiian Islands, led by the pride of the Pacific Fleet, the Battleship USS Arizona...

They are in deep water, facing modern fleet carriers, 6 of 'em, carrying the most modern lethal fighter in the world at the time...the A6M md. 0 fighter, and two attack planes fully as capable as anything the US had. The US? 3 modern carriers, Lexington, Enterprise, and Saratoga...with Grumman F4F wildcat fighters, which while certainly capable aircraft, were really no match for the Zero... An attack bomber in the Douglas SBD Dauntless, arguably the best dive bomber in the world, and last and least, the Douglas TBD Devastator, easily the worst aircraft the US navy has ever been saddled with...

Experianced pilots flying the best aircraft in the world, four hundred plus of them... versus much less experianced pilots flying aircraft that are at best a generation behind...

The fight would not have been good for the United States Navy... IMHO. As bad as it was, Pearl Harbour was a blessing in disguise.