Will my country ever cease its racism against our indigenous people?

Originally posted by SpinifexPrincess
Despite what the left-wing do-gooders of this country ( & other countries ) think, the Australian Aboriginals are looked after very well by the tax-payer, thank you very much.

Do they wish to be looked after, or do they, in fact, wish to be able to conduct their lives in dignity and enter into society on an equal footing while maintaining their identity as a people?

Have you asked?

And tell me, please, what in your opinion is the opposite analogy to a 'left-wing do-gooder?

Recieving stolen goods is still a crime, he had a stolen freddo frog in his possession, he was charged. Today its a stolen Freddo, tomorrow its a stolen car, whether he stole them or was in possession of the stolen property, the fact is it was STOLEN.

The boy was known to the police for some time for past crimes, lets get some perspective here yourself!

reply to post by SpinifexPrincess


I can assure you, that I have persective. Had my child been arrested and taken out of school for this I would have pretty much taken down the WA police force department invlolved, and got the resignation of the officer. You may think its ok to throw a child in a adult slammer, I do not.
I would also reprimand my child for eating a lolly someone nicked.

Point is, I know with my white kid this arrest would never have happened up:




[edit on 25-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

reply to post by SpinifexPrincess



Perspective? A CHILD ends up in an adult jail for 10 hours because someone gave him a stolen piece of candy? Maybe we should just have his hands cut off. Then let's see him accept a piece of candy that may without his knowledge have been stolen.

You better by God make sure any kids you have see a receipt prior to accepting a stick of gum from a friend. Damn stolen goods traffickers.

Originally posted by Caleb.K

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Caleb.K
The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

Actually, after WW2, West Germany paid 450 million marks to the World Jewish Congress in compensation for Jewish slave labour during the Nazi regime.
Just sayin'...

What about to the rest of the world? did they give us free housing? Do we remind them constantly that they started the war? Do the jews still hate the germans for what some nut cases did half a century ago? NO!

I know it's getting beyond the price of a candy bar, but further to the point of maligned people, reparations, and the German experience, this came up the other day...never mind the Holocaust, they're still paying off WW1:

Germany still paying off £50million in reparations following World War One
www.dailymail.co.uk...

[edit on 7-12-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

reply to post by zazzafrazz


You picked a rather tame story to showcase the problem my friend...
Let my throw out a more personal one...

Back in the late 1980's I was stationed with a good friend, he was Black Foot... anyway one day word came that his youngest sister, nine years old at the time, had been brutally raped by some young white men from town. his sister was in the hospital. when those men were done with that little girl they drove her out to the boonies where they dumped her little broken bleeding body in a ditch. She was one smart little girl too... if she hadn't played dead they might have made sure of the fact before leaving.

With her leg broken she had to drag herself nearly a mile to the highway. it was hours in near freezing temps before anyone drove down that back road. She would lose four toes to frost bite...

When the tribe got the details of this horrendous crime they went to the town and demanded justice be done. "Sorry it happened on tribal land. we cant do anything to those boys"! "Well hand them over and we'll deal with them"! "Sorry, you don't have an extradition treaty. But don't worry we'll give those boys a strong talking too"! Yeah right... white boys raping a Red girl wasn't a crime to them. just boys being boys and it wasn't like they did that to a white girl right?

IF your wondering how that story ends lets just say one of the three would have himself a tragic accident. the other two were quickly whisked away into hiding by there families least the same tragedy befall them too.

Sadly her story was not the first nor the last of its kind. today when things like this happen the FBI get involved. rarely will the trial be held by a tribal court. most often charges are plead down to something lesser.

Right now the group I work with "Parents of Murdered Children" is assisting a Dine, (Navajo) woman deal with the murder of her son. after two years there are no suspects/ but they don't really try very hard. not just because he's red but there are so many murders if some evidence doesn't present itself right away it gets put in the cold case files.

Oh no I could give you a hundred better stories to detail the abuse and neglect we Native people endure at the hands of our own government. you dont have to look hard or far to find them either...

[edit on 7-12-2009 by DaddyBare]

reply to post by DaddyBare


Yeah I hear ya, its like the truck driver on the Nullabor Plains who drove into a pair of hitch hiking Aborigines. The first went through the wind shield and second got sent flying into the bushes, when the police arrived they booked the first Aborigine for Breaking and Enter and the second for leaving the scene of the crime.

reply to post by alien


Full credit... good to see that the issues of personal accountability, self reflection and education have not been overlooked by some.
My race, ancestry and nationality are irrelevant for current purposes and my opinions on what goes on within the current "inhabitants" of New Zealand is another storey all together but from what i have seen there is a tendency for "colonisation" (or the llike) to be blamed for the over representation in all the wrong types of statistics.
I have many Maori friends and have nothing but respect for the culture and beliefs but... INDIVIDUALS need to be accountable for their own actions and individuals need to be aware of how their actions affect those around them, particularly the young and easily influenced.
No racial debates here... just wanted to state that i respectfully take my hat of the voice of Maori reason.

reply to post by zazzafrazz


Makes me wonder if the kid was Caucasian the Police would had gone in a different direction.......

Originally posted by zazzafrazz

A 12-year-old boy will fight charges that he received a chocolate Freddo frog allegedly stolen from a supermarket in regional Western Australia.

A lawyer for the boy, who appeared in Northam Children's Court on Monday, said he would plead not guilty to the two charges of receiving, which carry similar penalties to those of theft.

The boy is alleged to have received the chocolate from a friend who had stolen it from a supermarket and to have received a novelty sign stolen from another store..

news.ninemsn.com.au...

So our law enforcement deems it fit to arrest a child and incacerate him in prison cell for receiving a 70 CENT CHOCOLATE, that he did not steal himself.
The charge is receiving stolen goods.
The concept that teaching a child a 'lesson' by mentally and physically frightening him to this level is horrendous, all for a 70 cent chocolate.
I am 100% sure had this boy been not aboriginal, and from a middle class family, this would not have happened, and had it, there would be people in the streets marching by now.

He said when arrested, he had been apprehended at school and imprisoned for several hours in a holding cell at the local police station. "The conditions in those cells are appalling and completely ill-equipped to hold young children," he said.

There has been a Royal Commission set up to investigate the disproportionate number of indigenous Australians that have died in jail compared to other ethnicities. So we spend millions on investigative commissions to see why our indigenous brethren are dying in jails, and yet we allow a 12 year old child to be thrown in jail for a chocolate?

[edit on 16-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

Have you seen the new Government commercial aimed at Aborigionies?

Abo lady (i'm not being racist by saying that - i jsut cant spell for crap and tis a short version) sitting infront of a camera. Telling us about how her father did this and did that, and how they have the choice to "change to break the cycle"

To me that's trying to stereotype all abo's as a certain group.....



Another thing is it's not just a 1way street on this topic. They can be a bit... over the top... with some fo their "requests" to us. IE Lake Eyre. Currently noone is allowed to sail/swim in it - the only time it's full (once every 20 years) because they consider it their Sacred Land.

That's nice and all - but what's the frigging point of having all that land with noone allowed to use it - and it's not getting used currently. There's nothing specail about the land ecosystem wise- its not acting as a nature reserve to anything other than Seagulls. Why the big deal about sailing a boat? As long as the people out there are civil - and respect the enviroment (like you're expected to everywhere else anyway)

It's a combination of Stereotyping and Ego that have these people where they are today.
From the word go they're bought up being told we lost this we lost that they took this away we cant get a job why would you bother just get centrelink - we're nothing and goign to get nowhere.

Because of this mentality they grow up with that ideal. They 100% believe the government owes them stuff for their hard lives and why they havent achieved anything, so they'll settle for silly little things that make them think they're being compensated.



Back to the topic of the child - no way in hell should he have been jailed. Some other kid stole it right? How could the kid had of known it was stolen? For all he knew he was just eating a choccie a mate gave him which could have been from his lunchbox!

The racism has to stop - but it has to stop on both sides before anything will change.

Originally posted by TigaHawk
...Lake Eyre. Currently noone is allowed to sail/swim in it - the only time it's full (once every 20 years) because they consider it their Sacred Land.
That's nice and all - but what's the frigging point of having all that land with noone allowed to use it .

Well, if it's their Sacred Land...then it's not up to you to decide, or even judge, is it?

In one of my roles, I have stewardship over certain objects considered sacred by First Nations. They ask for them to be treated in a certain manner...so I do. No big deal, and not up to me to judge. They don't seem to judge our Christian ritual cannibalism and such.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

I have to respectfully point out that you are blinded to the message that he puts forth in his statement by some (partially ego driven) form of empathy that is obviously derived from whatever your "roles" entail.
The man is simply stating the obvious fact that the situation with Austarlian aboriginals is not helped by the fact that a large percentage are actually brought up by their parents to think that they are not worthy of making something of their lives and will spend it dependant on welfare etc... this is an undeniable fact and if you knew anything about the actual reasons for this you would not be so quick to put your 2 cents worth in.
"Christian ritual cannibilism"... PLEASE !!! many people throughout the ages have practiced cannibalism, why would you single out christians for doing the same ? and why would you refer to this as "our" christain ritual cannibalism, who exactly do you refer to when you say "our"... I guess that the answer to this is for your self reflection alone.
Most indigenous peoples (which the Australian aboriginals undeniably are) are a very proud people who stick staunchly to their beliefs and cultures, the problem that this man quite rightly points out is that pride quite often morphs into stubborness and bitterness and whether those feelings/character traits are justified or not - they do get in the way of resolutions to the relevant issues today.
Unlike their neighbours across the ditch in N.Z. the Australian aboriginals do have a genuine grievance to take up with the current democratic govenment, they are the indigenous people and they were treated extremely poorly BUT !!! just how long do you hold someone accountable for their great, great grandfathers actions ???
I firmly believe that their should be settlements reached and land given back (it might be bit much to ask to dismantle whole cities to do this but i believe that their is plenty of it still around to hand out once the government has paid out current land owners to return whatever is deemed by both parties to be reasonable).
However, you cannot expect to have the proverbial cake and eat it too... you now have your land back - either go back to your old ways of surviving off the land (eating huhu grubs and plant roots etc) or do something with it to make a living off and pay your way in a modern day society that like it or not is here to stay - NOBODY has a god given or born right to welfare payments !!! and using them to finance alcohol and drug addiction is not a career to be endorsed by parents or anybody else for that matter !!!
The problem with this is that probably 1 percent would be prepared to go back to the old ways of living off the land (ironic as this is what they seem so unshakingly keen to protect) and roughly the same percentage would be prepared to work the land to pay their own way in todays society... the reality is that if that was the case then they would either be already living off the land or have jobs as we speak.
What these situations unfortunatley create is an environment where racism is not necesarily condoned (more tolerated) if its directed towards a group of people that you have some form of historical grievance with, the simple fact of the matter is that racism is not ok PERIOD ! and if you want to lead a lifestyle that fits socities stereotypes then dont complain if you personally get lumped into that basket... this is not racism, this is a statement (or point) of fact.
The issues are the same world wide in many countries... regardless of history and how people ended up where they are today - you cannot change the past and each individual within evrey race and creed needs to look at themselves, be accountable for their own actions and live a daily self sufficient existance.
If you choose not to live in the bush or desert etc and want to lead a civilised existance with a house, running water and power, drive a car etc then you have to abide by the laws, get a job, pay your taxes and put food on the table for yourself and your family that you purchase with the money you earned through finding employment and so on.
All these theories on colonisation being the cause for a certain race of people being over represented in all the wrong statistics is merely a weak and pathetic excuse for the above mentioned racism and lack of personal accountability to rear its ugly head.
In summary - While you may be correct in the way you have chosen to word you reply (their sacred land) I dont think its relevant to compare "objects" that you have stewardship over in some sort of professional role to a lake that is (at present) in the public domain.

reply to post by zazzafrazz


I was unaware that there is/was racism against the indigiinous people.
The peopIe I know who are part N.A. are proud of it.
I went to school with a few and actually didn't even know it
Also there were some that were half..
Came close to marrying one, and my brother his sister. (Yes we knew, we had been friends for many years.)
I have known people who were Seminole and never realized it until years later when someone mentioned it.

This racism was shown in many of the old western movies. This always puzzled me and caused me to feel sad.. Especially since the character being derided wasn't a tomahawk weilding savage, but a regurlar guy just trying to get along in white man's world.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Sorry to butt in but the ignorance here is to astounding for words.
For the vast majority (by no means all)... dignity and entering into society is not high on the list priorities and if you had actually taken in and processed what was said previously about generational welfare dependance then you would have no need to ask this question.
The opposite analogy of left-wing do gooder ??? what relevance could this possibly have to this topic of conversation ??????
And for the record, the question would have undoubtedly been asked... do you know what the answer (or lack of) was ???

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Explanation: Ahhh yes... OK here is the thing....

I was at the big bang... The universe is my sacred ground!

So as a citizen of existence [citizen means I can carry out a war...on my own!] I HAVE A SAY EVERYWHERE!

Personal Disclosure: Silly lines on some map unfortunately will not convince me otherwise!

Originally posted by EAGLECULLERNZ
The opposite analogy of left-wing do gooder ??? what relevance could this possibly have to this topic of conversation ??????

I quoted your terminology...it sounds like a partisan argument. I'm asking you to define it. I notice you won't.

As to the 'generational welfare dependance', I'd say it needs to be fixed with health care, education and good leadership, same as anywhere else.

Originally posted by EAGLECULLERNZ
In summary - While you may be correct in the way you have chosen to word you reply (their sacred land) I dont think its relevant to compare "objects" that you have stewardship over in some sort of professional role to a lake that is (at present) in the public domain.

Sacred is sacred...the rest is just details.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Oh dear !!!
It was not my terminology - it was yours (in response to someone elses post - refer below).

"Do they wish to be looked after, or do they, in fact, wish to be able to conduct their lives in dignity and enter into society on an equal footing while maintaining their identity as a people?
Have you asked?
And tell me, please, what in your opinion is the opposite analogy to a 'left-wing do-gooder?"

So, i will decline your request to define something that i did not pen as it up to the original author to define that for you, I merely stated that this question seems irrelevant and futile.
I couldn't agree more with your list of solutions but these are not new, these are theoretical ideas that need some practical solutions put to them - we all know what needs to happen but one of the main humps we struggle to get over in relation to this is the subject matter previously discussed i.e. how do you get a man to accept these ideals etc when at present he is more concerned with whether or not he can sell off his sisters body to fund the bottle of alcohol that they are both going to feed themselves with today ??? (i have personally seen this),
when somone can come up with a solution to that then they can start making progress... any ideas ?

With regards to "sacred is sacred... the rest is just details", that all sounds very righteous and warm and fluffy etc but this is a modern day society and it is that attitude, that stubborness and pride that hinders any possible outcome or resolution for these people.
Despite genuine past grievances and wrong doings handed out to them in the past (which I acknowledge and sympathise fully with) the reality of the situation is that this cannot be undone and a solution that adresses these grievances whilst still maintaining a grip on modern day realities is what is required.
You can sit around the camp fire, drinking alcohol, crying and depressed about it or you can work with the duly elected current day government to come up with solutions... which do you think will be more beneficial to these people moving forward ???

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Isn't it intereting that when someone starts putting forth relevant, specific and impartial points that seem to be overlooked as part of the over-all situation or topic at hand... they get labelled as prejudiced or in favour of a particular cause ?
This is infact racism in its purest form... once again, the reasons why this is deemed OK by society in general is where the afore mentioned phrase "left wing do-gooder" comes into play.
If it looks, smells and feels like a spade and it can be used to dig holes in the ground, then there is a very good chance that it is... a spade !!! why are we (I) deemed as biased to a particular cause (or racist) if we call it a spade ???

reply to post by zazzafrazz

The poverty cycle that indigenous people find themselves in is not "our" fault, you need to speak for yourself there if you want to take responsibility for others making an individual decision to "drink and steal" as you put it and whether you realise it or not...in reality, it is not yours either as you are not personally accountable for what someone did X amount of generations ago.
I could not agree with you more that this child should not have been locked up in an adult facility, any reasonably minded/sane person would but according to your theories - it would have been OK for aboriginals to steal before the dreaded "white colonisers" arrived ???
You cannot blame this on colonisation as im sure that they know now (as they always have) that stealing is WRONG ! also, i wonder what sort of punishment they would have dealt out for theft before the modern day judicial system was introduced ? (maybe a beating or removal of the offending hand(s) etc).
The more that aboriginals hear this lack of personal accountability, blame everyone but myself garbage the longer they will stay exactly where they are... do them a favour by not perpetuating it any further.

Originally posted by EAGLECULLERNZ
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Oh dear !!!
It was not my terminology - it was yours (in response to someone elses post - refer below).

"Do they wish to be looked after, or do they, in fact, wish to be able to conduct their lives in dignity and enter into society on an equal footing while maintaining their identity as a people?
Have you asked?
And tell me, please, what in your opinion is the opposite analogy to a 'left-wing do-gooder?"

So, i will decline your request to define something that i did not pen as it up to the original author to define that for you, I merely stated that this question seems irrelevant and futile.

My apologies for the mistaken identity, though the question stands to the original author...as to the rest, I'm going fishing, and I'll deal with your points in a few days.