Will my country ever cease its racism against our indigenous people?

Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by spellbound

 

Good question, most probably remove him from his family and place him under foster care.

I imagine there would be a fuss over such a thing too...

Yes, there would also be a big fuss over that for sure. If that did happen, then there would be accusations that "children would never be taken away from their parents if they were white..." In either scenario, white people are made out to be the Big Bad Wolf. It is becoming a rather nauseating pattern to see white people used as scapegoats.

To OP:
I do sympathise with those who have suffered and I can understand why many would be angry and unhappy. But how can people be helped if they don't have the will to help themselves? The past cannot be changed. We as a society have taken positive steps toward fixing relations. Mr. Rudd has set up expert panels to help deal with problems in Indigenousness communities, has issued a public and private apology on behalf of the whole nation, and has increased financial support to Indigenous communities.

What else would you like to see?

[edit on 16/11/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Edward 1st
Well quote me where I could be interpreted.

First of you pointed out that aboriginals are less intelligent. By what means do you form that opinion? Have you studied demographics or undertaken scientific studies to find that out? Have you undertaken a survey of every aboriginal in the country and measured their IQ?

Secondly, depsite only working with 3 or 4 aboriginals in one city, for a short period of time....you claime that on that basis, that they arent your equal. That wasnt in your words, but you did say it was a bad experience, which implies that you either dont consider them your equal or you consider them as bad company.

What have I said that needs me to have met a true aborigine from one of those towns?

3 aboriginals from one city.....and you made your opinion based on that. Forget I said the country (where they are decent human beings, doing jobs that require intelligence)...try the entire country

We’re getting off point. You’re making an argument about me not meeting a true aborigine which I think is irrelevant again, and getting away from your main disagreement with me. I said White people were intellectually more advanced than aborigines and you disagreed. Here’s my case. I’ll take a description of intellect from an online dictionary.

“capacity for thinking and acquiring knowledge, esp. of a high or complex order; mental capacity”

So based on your limited contact with a few aboriginals, you formulate an opinion based on a dictionary definition. Again, where is your sources, or study that you can effectively prove that aboriginals are not as intellectual people?

My point: all we can go off is what our intellects have achieved of a high or complex order. That should be a pretty good indicator of mental capacity. Just think of what white mans has built – super computers, space crafts, harnessed electricity etc. Then you must think of his understanding of mathematics, biology, physics, medicine, architecture and literature. What about great minds such as, Leonardo Da Vinci, Nikola Tesla, Galileo, Plato, Aristotle. What has the aboriginal intellect achieved to prove itself equal to the white mans?

Would you respond and then make a case for us being equal?

Ok, so you only classify intellect by those things? Well seing as you asked here's proof that aboriginals arent as "unintelligent" as you implied.

Albert Namatjira- Famous Australian Painter
Bennelong- Aborginal translator for the Royal Family
Neville Bonner- Australian senator
Aden Ridgeway- Australian Senator
Oodgeroo Noonaccal- Poet
Marcia Langton- Academic
Mick Dodson- Academic
Sir Douglas Nicholls- Former South Australian Governor
Dr Charles Perkins- Senior Research Officer with the Office of Aboriginal Affairs
Noel Pearson- Lawyer
Captain Reginald Walter Saunders- Army Captain (i know not intellectual position but he was by no means unitelligent)
David Unaipon- Inventor, also studied aerodynamics, also human equality activist
Shirly Smith- Co-fouinder of Aboriginal Medical Services
Sally Morgan- World renowned artist
Pat O'Shane- NSW Magistrate
Dr Faith Bandler- Author, and human rights activist

Now if you consider these people as non-intellectuals and still consider the aboriginal race as not as intelligent as any other race...then you got some serious research to do.

Shouldn't the punishment justify the crime?It sounds a little severe to me.Do you think past offences matter in the case of a candy bar?

What would happen if a gallon of milk or loaf of bread was stolen?At least Australia ia a little more civilized than the middle east.He would probably lost a hand.

It doesn't sound like a constitution to me,it sounds more like martial law.A child is a child .

reply to post by Donnie Darko


Trust me, there's plenty of racism directed at us - it's just that we're a lot scarcer in the US than aboriginals are in Australia. I grew up being called "swamp ni**er" in the south, the time I spent in Alaska was full of hearing beople raise hell abou the natives having subsistence rights and being allowed to own land, and I'm sure that in places like the Southwest, and up in South Dakota, there's all kinds of hate thrown around.

We're just not on the radar in most of the country, is all. Where we are, we're treated worse than gay jewish black people at a klan rally.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz

and you are indeed going completely off topic. This is not about white superiority, please refrain. Your percpetion of how we dessimated the globe with out technology is a bizare way to think we are more advanced.
Written word does not euate to intellect.
There is no biological possibilty that white people are more intelligent. This is the last of this nonesence i want to see on this thread, please.

I’m not going off topic at all. He/she called me out for me saying whites were intellectually more advanced than aborigines then didn’t back up his/her point. I then backed up mine and would like him/her to do the same.

No it’s not a bizarre way at all. You seem to think because we’ve killed more people and had larger scale atrocities we can’t be intellectually more advanced. That just doesn’t make sense logically. What if aliens warped space travelled to earth from a billion light years away and killed every single person on our planet with the touch of a button and took our water. Just because they destroyed our planet and killed everyone, that means they couldn’t be intellectually more advanced than humans. See where your logic doesn’t make sense?

There is no biological possibility!! You think the differences between races start and end with the difference between the size and density between blacks and white skulls? A white brain on average weighs more and is larger? Different brain shapes? The different thicknesses of the supragranular layer, the frontal lobe is less fissured and less complex in the black mans brain.

You telling me there is no biological possibility just makes you look like a fool.

I guess it all depends on your definition of intellect?

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
First of you pointed out that aboriginals are less intelligent. By what means do you form that opinion? Have you studied demographics or undertaken scientific studies to find that out? Have you undertaken a survey of every aboriginal in the country and measured their IQ?

I haven’t undertaken studies myself, but I’ve read studies made by professionals that indicate differences in intelligence. Their IQ has been measured as the lowest among the races. Why are you making stupid points about taking the IQ of every single aborigine in the country? You know that’s not possible or viable and are just trying to score childish points. It’s a sign of your weak defence judging by the rest of your post I’ve read.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Secondly, depsite only working with 3 or 4 aboriginals in one city, for a short period of time....you claime that on that basis, that they arent your equal. That wasnt in your words, but you did say it was a bad experience, which implies that you either dont consider them your equal or you consider them as bad company.

3 aboriginals from one city.....and you made your opinion based on that. Forget I said the country (where they are decent human beings, doing jobs that require intelligence)...try the entire country

So based on your limited contact with a few aboriginals, you formulate an opinion based on a dictionary definition. Again, where is your sources, or study that you can effectively prove that aboriginals are not as intellectual people?

The only opinion I formed from meeting the handful of aborigines in Australia is that I wasn’t keen on the handful of aborigines I met, nothing more. Again another childish retort.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Ok, so you only classify intellect by those things? Well seing as you asked here's proof that aboriginals arent as "unintelligent" as you implied.

Albert Namatjira- Famous Australian Painter
Bennelong- Aborginal translator for the Royal Family
Neville Bonner- Australian senator
Aden Ridgeway- Australian Senator
Oodgeroo Noonaccal- Poet
Marcia Langton- Academic
Mick Dodson- Academic
Sir Douglas Nicholls- Former South Australian Governor
Dr Charles Perkins- Senior Research Officer with the Office of Aboriginal Affairs
Noel Pearson- Lawyer
Captain Reginald Walter Saunders- Army Captain (i know not intellectual position but he was by no means unitelligent)
David Unaipon- Inventor, also studied aerodynamics, also human equality activist
Shirly Smith- Co-fouinder of Aboriginal Medical Services
Sally Morgan- World renowned artist
Pat O'Shane- NSW Magistrate
Dr Faith Bandler- Author, and human rights activist


Now if you consider these people as non-intellectuals and still consider the aboriginal race as not as intelligent as any other race...then you got some serious research to do.

I asked for evidence to suggest, as you well know, that aborigine’s intellect is the equal of white men.

Yet since you can’t you try to make out like I’ve said that aborigines can’t have intellectuals among them. Then try to argue that point instead.

Your trying to slip away from the point you made; that they were intellectually white mans equal. Is that list meant to compare with the couple of names I wrote? A lawyer, a magistrate, a translator, a human right activist etc, are these people equal to Tesla, Newton and the like are they?

You’ve haven’t even scratched my argument with this post. Do you want another go at providing any evidence to suggest or support they’re white man’s equal?


P.S Including people who arn't full aborigines on your list doesn't help your case.



[edit on 16-11-2009 by Edward 1st]

Originally posted by Edward 1st
[I haven’t undertaken studies myself, but I’ve read studies made by professionals that indicate differences in intelligence. Their IQ has been measured as the lowest among the races. Why are you making stupid points about taking the IQ of every single aborigine in the country? You know that’s not possible or viable and are just trying to score childish points. It’s a sign of your weak defence judging by the rest of your post I’ve read.

Ok, so where are these "studies" that you have read then? You're basing an argument on personal opinion, so how am I childish when you are doing the exact same thing. Thats kind of hypocritical

The only opinion I formed from meeting the handful of aborigines in Australia is that I wasn’t keen on the handful of aborigines I met, nothing more. Again another childish retort.

And, you said that it was an unfulfilling experience.

What I am saying is that your post is borderlining on assumptions, and ignorance to a lesser degree. How can you specualte that based on the few that you have had contact on, that these people are not your equals intellectually?

Your trying to slip away from the point you made; that they were intellectually white mans equal. Is that list meant to compare with the couple of names I wrote? A lawyer, a magistrate, a translator, a human right activist etc, are these people equal to Tesla, Newton and the like are they?

You’ve haven’t even scratched my argument with this post. Do you want another go at providing any evidence to suggest or support they’re white man’s equal?

The point you made was to show you evidence that aboriginals weren't intellectual. I showed intellectual positions in which aboriginals have held. Now you seem to only conclude that intellectuals are they above brilliant

Seeing as we are getting to definitions, here's one on "intellectual

Intellectual’ can denote three types of persons:

A man or woman involved in, and with, abstract, erudite ideas and theories.
A person whose profession (science, medicine, law, literature) solely involves the production and dissemination of ideas.[1]
A person of notable cultural and artistic expertise whose knowledge grants him or her intellectual authority in public discourse.

Now according to that, every person I have mentioned fits in there

If you only consider intellectuals as people with the same intelligence as Einstein etc.....then you yourself might as well be considered a non-intellectual just like the same people you have no idea about, and are shamelessy labelling.

That kind of proves the point that us white people arent all smarter than black people.

Also, you say you are not a white supremacist. Again here's another definition, the definition of racism

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

and

Although the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence,dislike, discrimination, or oppression, the term can also have varying and contested definitions. Racialism is a related term, sometimes intended to avoid these negative meanings. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. [2] Based on this evidence, "racial characteristics" logically cannot exist either, such as group differences in eye color or human hair color.

Now, unlike your posts, Im going to stop short of labelling you, but your posts certainly do reflect those definitions.





[edit on 16/11/2009 by OzWeatherman]

reply to post by zazzafrazz


I don't even need to read the case over a Chocolate bar... The simple fact is we all know Aborigines are... and have been victims of gross racism in Austrailia. Try and deny it... and YOU are only lying to YOURSELF!

I've seen it with my own eyes countless times.

It amazes me that folks still try and justify / minimize the obvious racism on these people. The Europeans have robbed them blind of their land, culture and brainwashed them to act like 4th class citizens in their own country.

S&F to you Sir.

[edit on 16-11-2009 by Level X]

Originally posted by Level X

S&F to you Sir.

I think you might mean "madam"

Zazz is female

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Thanks for that info...

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Ok, so where are these "studies" that you have read then? You're basing an argument on personal opinion, so how am I childish when you are doing the exact same thing. Thats kind of hypocritical

Shuey, A.M. (1958/1966). The Testing Of Negro Intelligence. Lynchburg, Virginia: Bell Edition, New York: Social Science Press

Levin, M. (1997). Why Race Matters: Race Differences And What They Mean. Westport Connecticut: Praeger.

I’m basing my opinion on studies I’ve read. Here are two for you.

You’re basing yours on nothing. I haven’t seen anything of any substance from you arguing they’re the white mans equal, just the some of them can hold decent jobs.

It was asking if I’d taken ‘the IQ of every single aborigine in the country’ that was childish.

Now please let's see something from you.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
What I am saying is that your post is borderlining on assumptions, and ignorance to a lesser degree. How can you specualte that based on the few that you have had contact on, that these people are not your equals intellectually?

Assumptions! Please just take a look at what I write and then what you write. I’ve never once said that I based my belief of the white man being intellectually more advanced than the aborigines on the handful of those that I met. That is a huge assumption that you keep repeating.

Quote me where I said I base my opinion on this?

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
The point you made was to show you evidence that aboriginals weren't intellectual. I showed intellectual positions in which aboriginals have held. Now you seem to only conclude that intellectuals are they above brilliant

The only thing I’ve said was that white men are intellectually more advanced than aboriginals. Can you not understand this? You showing me a list of aboriginals, some of which are only partial aboriginal, who hold academic positions means absolute nothing. Our debate is that:

“White men are intellectually more advanced than aboriginals. “

Does this state anywhere that aboriginals can’t be intellectual? Can you see where your argument is going off in a different direction yet?

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Seeing as we are getting to definitions, here's one on "intellectual

Intellectual’ can denote three types of persons:

A man or woman involved in, and with, abstract, erudite ideas and theories.
A person whose profession (science, medicine, law, literature) solely involves the production and dissemination of ideas.[1]
A person of notable cultural and artistic expertise whose knowledge grants him or her intellectual authority in public discourse.

Now according to that, every person I have mentioned fits in there

If you only consider intellectuals as people with the same intelligence as Einstein etc.....then you yourself might as well be considered a non-intellectual just like the same people you have no idea about, and are shamelessy labelling.

That kind of proves the point that us white people arent all smarter than black people.

I’m talking about in general, as again you well know.

There are always exceptions. That’s another common argument I hear that is totally baseless. For example children under 10 are generally less intelligent than adults. By you saying well there’s a 9 year old with an IQ of 160 so your point about adults being more intelligent can’t be true.
No logic in this at all, and these are your arguments.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Also, you say you are not a white supremacist. Again here's another definition, the definition of racism

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

and

Although the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence,dislike, discrimination, or oppression, the term can also have varying and contested definitions. Racialism is a related term, sometimes intended to avoid these negative meanings. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial group

Races are different in many ways. If by me saying black men generally have more fast twitch muscle fibres than whites so can run the 100m’s faster makes me racist, then I’m a racist. Will you drop the racism case now? It’s not help your argument.



[edit on 16-11-2009 by Edward 1st]

Originally posted by Edward 1st
“White men are intellectually more advanced than aboriginals. “

Does this state anywhere that aboriginals can’t be intellectual? Can you see where your argument is going off in a different direction yet?

Im just going to ignore all the other garbage, as its going nowhere and bring you back to some of your own quotes

Are you telling me all races are equal? That is ignorant and shows a lack of education

According to my above definitions of racism...this comment is racist

You’re mistaking treating races as equals and actually being physically and mentally equal.

Again, this quote is almost racist

No I don’t live in Australia I’m from the UK but lived in Perth. I met a few aboriginals and worked with a half aboriginal. Can’t say I liked what I saw, and thought at the time that we’d made a mistake trying to integrate them into society. They should have just been moved on.

This point is also racist

And your main point in your last post was:

What has the aboriginal intellect achieved to prove itself equal to the white mans?

Would you respond and then make a case for us being equal

I did post a response which proved that aboriginal people have proven that they have the same intellectual capabilities as white people. If you cant understands this, and judging by your past posts and your willingness to twist your own posts so they conform to your own beliefs, it is clear that you are perhaps blinded by your own prejudice, and there is no point in continuing on.

That and we have gotten completely off topic.....youve proven your points, Ive proven mine...its done

[edit on 16/11/2009 by OzWeatherman]

[edit on 16/11/2009 by OzWeatherman]

The punishment clearly doesnt fit the crime. Im more prone to go by my instincts and call it how I see it. It probably is because he is Aboriginal, sad but true.
Hopefully the kid is given a much less exorbitant penalty.

If saying an Aboriginal rights activist has the same intellectual capabilities as Leonardo Da Vinci and this is your case, then you do right to pack in.

I'll say again if pointing out race differences for a debate makes me racist then I'm racist.

You can’t back your own debate up with facts so you resort to the racist claims.

There you go.


[edit on 16-11-2009 by Edward 1st]

reply to post by Edward 1st


Actually I live by this statement which happens to be in Springers signature

Never argue with an idiot, he'll only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience!

Originally posted by spellbound

There is no hatred towards aboriginals in the city.. there is some in the country by a small amount of people who are that way inclined... the rest are just scared for there safety and hence when you see a gang of aboriginal youths you dont look them in the eye.. not because you hate them but because if you do you will more then likely get your head stomped on! Dont tell me this doesnt happen iv seen myself!

Pheeeew sorry guys i had to get this off my chest! Im not racist but i have seen both sides of aboriginal culture in the present day and let me tell you the youths dont give a sh*t about dream time, unfortunately its evdent by the stain of blue around there mouths and the cask in there hand! I also have sooo many aboriginal friends! but they will tell you that they are being let down by there own people... my friends made something with there lives and the free money given to them!

Thanks for listening and i may be getting flamed!

I won't flame you. But there is a racism in the cities. I grew up in Brisbane and i went to a school that helped out alot of indigenous families, so we learnt dreamtime stories and celebrated NAIDOC day and were almost as much an indigenous school as we were a traditional school and i grew up with an indigenous best friend, who's father was a talented and well know aboriginal artist and many other kind families so i saw how lovely they can be, however, and i'm not racist, but i've also learnt to be cautious around some of them. I grew up thinking that it didnt matter if you was black or white, but as i left school and faced working and walking to and from train stations late at night etc, i soon learned that not all are like that. My mother didnt ask to get her nose broken for not having a cigarette when they wanted one, i too don't like being called a 'white c***' or 'f****** c***' for just walking past. My partner doesnt like being abused each morning on the walk to work and having to put all his items in pockets and putting his smokes away otherwise they follow him and shout more obscenities.

But - that's just some bad eggs, i'm sure there are plenty of people just like the wonderful people i met back in my earlier years. They are the ones that have to work twice as hard though to make people forget the stigmas associated with their race, which is sad. But obviously something needs to be done in the outback towns though to stop the alcohol abuse/sex abuse/crimes/drug abuse though. More centrelink and less responsibility is not going to do much more then cause the next generations to continue to assume that they can do whatever it is they please.


[edit on 17-11-2009 by bkaust]

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
I did post a response which proved that aboriginal people have proven that they have the same intellectual capabilities as white people. If you cant understands this, and judging by your past posts and your willingness to twist your own posts so they conform to your own beliefs, it is clear that you are perhaps blinded by your own prejudice, and there is no point in continuing on.

That and we have gotten completely off topic.....youve proven your points, Ive proven mine...its done

I’ve proven my points as far as you can on an internet forum. Said my piece, backed it up with facts and sources.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Whaaaaat? You think that they arent as intelligent as white people? Thats just plain ignorant....actually it also suggests a lack of education. I dont understand why you would claim that intellect differs depending on race

You haven’t touched the subject above that this all started over.

But yes you are correct you’ve proven points that you’ve brought into the argument that at no moment did I mention or dispute. Aboriginals have intellectuals. Well done.


[edit on 17-11-2009 by Edward 1st]

Update and back on topic...and away from the land of lalalala....
The police commisioner has asked for the charges to be dropped.

But Police Commissioner Karl O'Callaghan said on Tuesday he had written to the court, asking for the charges to be withdrawn. He said the matter should be sent back to the police juvenile justice team, which usually dealt with such matters

He said in his opinion, the matter could be better dealt with through agencies other than the court. "I think we are making a reasonable decision about this," he told Fairfax Radio on Tuesday. "Ultimately the problem has to be fixed and one of the things we have to do to fix this problem is call in the other services which are responsible for working with families.

He denied there were any racial overtones to the matter ....

WA Aboriginal Legal Service chief lawyer Peter Collins, who is acting for the boy, had earlier described the prosecution as "scandalous". He said it was unlikely to have arisen if the boy had come from a "middle class, non-Aboriginal family" in Perth. WA Premier Colin Barnett had said he suspected there was "more to the case" than had been reported.

news.ninemsn.com.au...

The commissioner weighing in now, hmmm he's gotten a beating from someone high up.....or maybe he's just a good guy that can see a disgraceful act, I shall give him the benefit of the doubt.

[edit on 17-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]