Will my country ever cease its racism against our indigenous people?

[edit on 11/16/2009 by yeahright]

reply to post by KRISKALI777


No, in point of fact, it's not...

To point out that there is a bias attached to enforcement of laws is, however, allowed...

...and who, in most countries, are the lawmakers? Or at least the majority? You guessed it, Caucasians...

This incarceration of a kid, regardless of ethnicity, for a candy bar is, IMHO, borderline...

However, having said that... There was, maybe still is, a program called "Scared Straight" here in the States where at risk juvenile offenders are introduced to prison life by groups of Lifers. I watched one of these programs in action as part of a Sociology class in college, and it scared the crap outta me, and I wasn't in the room with 'em... The program was a raging success for several years. It began in Rahway State prison in New Jersey, and rapidly spread across the nation.

However, there doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting the case for using this method for at risk kids...the rate of recidivism is no less for the kids involved in the program, then for those not... At least in the study that I read just a few minutes ago...

For some odd reason, I can't get the link to work... .

I don't know if this was the reasoning behind the incarceration of this kid, but it could have been...

For the same type of situation, only thousands of miles away, see here:


25 chicago students aressted for foodfight

This type of behaviour is found anywhere Caucasian's appoint themselves to administrate populations of non- European descent.

reply to post by zazzafrazz

He said when arrested, he had been apprehended at school and imprisoned for several hours in a holding cell at the local police station. "The conditions in those cells are appalling and completely ill-equipped to hold young children," he said

Just curious as to why there was not more detail given about these "appalling" conditions if they were so severe. I mean, holding a twelve year old boy in a stinky jail cell for a couple of hours is not that big of a deal. So what, they didn't have stuffed animals and chocolate cookies on tap for him? lol, what was so applauding that it would endanger a 12 year old boy?

Seems to me stuff like this is said to make the story more appealing to those that are given to sympathy. I think the more important thing here is the things that are not mentioned, or the details on some of the things they glanced over such as this "appalling" holding cell.

I think the arguments about racism or the destruction of an indiginous culture should not obscure the basic question about our police that would throw a child into jail and terrorize him over a chocolate. I think everyone on the planet no matter what country they are in should stop and ponder where we are going and just how we got this far down the road of this concept of justice.

[edit on 16-11-2009 by m khan]

So what does this have to do with indigenous people? It looks like a kid got caught committing a crime, and now is facing charges.

While one might argue that a 12-year-old being arrested for a seemingly minor crime is excessive, I don't see that. He's not been imprisoned. He's been charged, and will have a trial. At the trial, the judge (or jury, or whatever) can consider the magnitude of the crime, the age of the child, and all the other factors that would seem to indicate that leniency is in order. That's why trials are held, at least ideally.

It's not up to the police to decide that this case requires leniency, and to let the kid go. That would make the police judge and jury, which they aren't. They have no more authority to let the kid go, than they have to execute someone they decide is guilty of murder. their job is to apprehend accused criminals and bring them to trial. It's not up to them to decide who should face trial.

Originally posted by spellbound
Here is my two cents.

Firstly, the treatment of that boy is absolutely shocking.

Secondly - Australia has a shameful history of how it has treated the Aboriginal people and I can't see that treatment changing.

Thirdly, NZ has a shameful history of how it has treated the Maori, but at least we are trying to make up for it now - and have been for many years.

OMFG are you serious?? How much more can a country do to say sorry? We have publicly apologised, given free healthcare, free education, free housing, financial incentive to start a business and money every week for food and other expenses!!!

I am so sick of this white mans guilt!

The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

And yes New Zealand has just as bad a history with its colonisation... infact i believe you signed a lease for 100 years of colonisation with the maoris and then shat all over that when the time was up and stayed there!

Please if you live in the city in America or Newzealand or Australia get outside of your comfort zone and live in an area where aboriginal violence, drunkedness, theft is rife!
Try Kalgoorlie for a start! When your afraid to walk past groups of drunk aboriginals in the middle of the street booozing up on there pay and swearing and call you F*ing White Trash and White C**ts then you will understand!

Until then your opinion is not valid!

Try living in a place where the dregs of aboriginal society comes and #s on your lawn.. throws bricks at your windows, or lights bonfires on your driveways!!!

I Guarantee your opinion will change!

Now im not saying that all aboriginals are useless and im not racist... but there has been a culture of not doing anything and getting free money that has caused this situation!

There is no hatred towards aboriginals in the city.. there is some in the country by a small amount of people who are that way inclined... the rest are just scared for there safety and hence when you see a gang of aboriginal youths you dont look them in the eye.. not because you hate them but because if you do you will more then likely get your head stomped on! Dont tell me this doesnt happen iv seen myself!

Pheeeew sorry guys i had to get this off my chest! Im not racist but i have seen both sides of aboriginal culture in the present day and let me tell you the youths dont give a sh*t about dream time, unfortunately its evdent by the stain of blue around there mouths and the cask in there hand! I also have sooo many aboriginal friends! but they will tell you that they are being let down by there own people... my friends made something with there lives and the free money given to them!

Thanks for listening and i may be getting flamed!

Flame me for this comment!

Good, and they should have locked up the kid who supplied him with the goods.

And the parents, make them accountable too.

On May 18 this year, my youngest son in GR 7 had his hip dislocated in a bullying attack, and the kid that did it just doesnt care. Court will be 14/12 (childrens court)


I wish they had locked this little prick up who did this to my son. I dont care what colour their skin is. Skin colour HAS NOTHING TO DO with being taught respect.

If the parents are too frikkin slack to teach their kids manners and respect, then lock them all up.

There are good and bad everywhere, so why should the good have to put up with the bad.

Cheers Flame me if you have to, but at 8.55 that morning I had the phonecall from the school, and as I was leaving home, realized that the ambulance that went past my place was for MY KID!

Originally posted by Caleb.K
The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

Actually, after WW2, West Germany paid 450 million marks to the World Jewish Congress in compensation for Jewish slave labour during the Nazi regime.

Just sayin'...

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Caleb.K
The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

Actually, after WW2, West Germany paid 450 million marks to the World Jewish Congress in compensation for Jewish slave labour during the Nazi regime.

Just sayin'...

What about to the rest of the world? did they give us free housing? Do we remind them constantly that they started the war? Do the jews still hate the germans for what some nut cases did half a century ago? NO!

Originally posted by Caleb.K

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Caleb.K
The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

Actually, after WW2, West Germany paid 450 million marks to the World Jewish Congress in compensation for Jewish slave labour during the Nazi regime.
Just sayin'...

What about to the rest of the world? did they give us free housing? Do we remind them constantly that they started the war? Do the jews still hate the germans for what some nut cases did half a century ago? NO!

While I commiserate with your level of frustration, the issue of the Holocaust is not quite analogous. But anything that is going to change for the aboriginal community is not based upon simple handouts. Good leadership, good health and good education are required to effect any lasting change. It won't happen overnight...but it sure as heck won't happen if it isn't prioritized. Which is to say that whatever is being one now, does not seem to work.

OK so till very recently, we managed to keep this thread a decent discussion and flame searching free, lets try and maintain the feel, thanks to most who posted their thoughts, its interesting reading your take.

My next post I will address individual comments, but here I would like to add the following, as I slept on it

Scare tactics do not work.
A child of 12 is unable to form these kind of decisions without proper guidance.

White Australia decimated the guidance that was pased down.
How anyone thinks a child who sees violence at home and school and on the street, will be scared straight by putting him in a adult jail cell and perpetuating that feeling of fear is beyond me.

A child needs education (they took him out of school to throw him in jail for recieving a 70 cent candy) compassion, sence of community and guidance.

Why do people percieve that the indigenous parents do not manage this guidance? Remember "it is white mans societies " rules and we expect them to fit in with those rules to not "upset us"
I'll explain a little bit on their culture ( I feel a little out of place speaking on their behalf, but my best mate is Inidienous and has pointed me to a document she helped write that I will quote)

They are not WASPS, they are told to conform to our religious, cultural and moral standards.
They have been told they are not white, even after forcable removing them from their parents and trying to raise them white with wasp families. An apology doesnt fix it, just helps heal it.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures are complex and diverse. The Indigenous cultures of Australia are the oldest living cultural history in the world - they go back at least 50,000 years and some argue closer to 65,000 years. One of the reasons Aboriginal cultures have survived for so long is their ability to adapt and change over time. It was this affinity with their surroundings that goes a long way to explaining how Aboriginal people survived for so many millennia.

Cultural heritage is seen as 'the total ways of living built up by a group of human beings, which is passed from one generation to the next', given to them by reason of their birth.

In Australia, Indigenous communities keep their cultural heritage alive by passing their knowledge, arts, rituals and performances from one generation to another, speaking and teaching languages, protecting cultural materials, sacred and significant sites, and objects.

www.cultureandrecreation.gov.au...

So what we have is a portion of disenfranchised people, that some australians think an apology, some money, and white education should make them "greateful" for the hand out we have given them over the last 30 years only and should make up for the anihilation of their way of life. The identity they required to make them a working society is not passed down as much anymore, and they find it hard to "conform" to our sensibilties.
They were introduced to alcohol which they do not have a stong genetic predispodtion to manage.

Their clan structures worked incredibly 65 000 years, do not hate them now and think they are gross and violent as they had that taken away from them, the drinking and violence you see from some is a RESULT of disenfranchisment and loss of identity, not a ingrain cultural predisposition to be that way.
They cant just "get over it" do not uderestimate the impact of 65 000 years of tradition, how far back can anyone else trace their culture a few hundred years maybe?

We cultivated our land, but in a way different from the white man. We endeavoured to live with the land; they seemed to live off it. I was taught to preserve, never to destroy.

Aborigine Tom Dystra

Im not asking anyone to be sick of white guilt.
Im hoping one can recognise what dissemating a culture does to them.
Just as dissenfranchising a family group can lead to the white junkies that abuse me each time i walk pass them in Surry Hills. I dont lable the entire anglo saxon culture that way because of the damaged few, the same should be said for indigenous people.

This childs parents are part of this cycle of disenfranchisment. Compassion, traditional elder teachings, care and education will help.
Not a white mans adult jail. We can keep trying to make them "white" and play by our rules, but we'll learn one day 65 000 years is hard to remove completely.


[edit on 16-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

Originally posted by Caleb.K

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Caleb.K
The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

Actually, after WW2, West Germany paid 450 million marks to the World Jewish Congress in compensation for Jewish slave labour during the Nazi regime.

Just sayin'...

What about to the rest of the world? did they give us free housing? Do we remind them constantly that they started the war? Do the jews still hate the germans for what some nut cases did half a century ago? NO!

I agreed with your original post about white man guilt but you made a bad example of Germany. As far as my knowledge goes, Jews/Zionists in Israel are still receiving and profiting from reparations to this day and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future due to that war. They’ll no doubt use that money for weapons and to fund the persecution of Palestinians. The Holocaust industry is massive and with debate about its actual scale against the law, they have a free income for a very doubtful event in history.

I’m from England (where our indigenous are under attack) and lived in Perth for a year and never realised the plight of the aboriginals. In my opinion they aren’t ready for modern society. They have the lowest IQ of all the races and just can’t cut in civilisation. Why does IQ matter? Well it’s an excellent marker for how well a person will do in the white man’s world and they just don’t have it. Trying to make equal what is not just won’t work. Ask Nature.

What I thought was - Australia is a massive place, why can’t aboriginals just go back to the bush and leave civilisation to the white man? There’s enough room for everyone. It’s not as if the aboriginals had a civilisation built that the British came and destroyed it. They just lived off the land, so since there’s thousand’s of spare miles in Australia, civilisation and aboriginals need never bump into each other. Problem solved

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Caleb.K

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Caleb.K
The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

Actually, after WW2, West Germany paid 450 million marks to the World Jewish Congress in compensation for Jewish slave labour during the Nazi regime.
Just sayin'...

What about to the rest of the world? did they give us free housing? Do we remind them constantly that they started the war? Do the jews still hate the germans for what some nut cases did half a century ago? NO!

While I commiserate with your level of frustration, the issue of the Holocaust is not quite analogous. But anything that is going to change for the aboriginal community is not based upon simple handouts. Good leadership, good health and good education are required to effect any lasting change. It won't happen overnight...but it sure as heck won't happen if it isn't prioritized. Which is to say that whatever is being one now, does not seem to work.

I believe your right... things need to change.. but giving more money wont solve the problem... you may not know but the australian government has spent millions of dollars on black only schools aimed in helping indigenous children understand there culture and properly educate them yet only a handful HANDFUL! of students bother going. These schools can hold hundreds of students its just that they dont want to be taught! So how can we fix that? Government intervention would have everyone up in arms about how its Stolen Generation again...

Its a hard problem... but racism is a cop out!

The real issue is a lot harder then that, i feel sorry that aboriginal people cannot break the mould that they are stuck in! Its really terrible but its not a matter of the australian people being racist!

Originally posted by Edward 1st

Originally posted by Caleb.K

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Caleb.K
The germans killed millions but we dont keep flogging them and reminding them and making them pay reperations!

Actually, after WW2, West Germany paid 450 million marks to the World Jewish Congress in compensation for Jewish slave labour during the Nazi regime.

Just sayin'...

What about to the rest of the world? did they give us free housing? Do we remind them constantly that they started the war? Do the jews still hate the germans for what some nut cases did half a century ago? NO!

I agreed with your original post about white man guilt but you made a bad example of Germany. As far as my knowledge goes, Jews/Zionists in Israel are still receiving and profiting from reparations to this day and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future due to that war. They’ll no doubt use that money for weapons and to fund the persecution of Palestinians. The Holocaust industry is massive and with debate about its actual scale against the law, they have a free income for a very doubtful event in history.

I’m from England (where our indigenous are under attack) and lived in Perth for a year and never realised the plight of the aboriginals. In my opinion they aren’t ready for modern society. They have the lowest IQ of all the races and just can’t cut in civilisation. Why does IQ matter? Well it’s an excellent marker for how well a person will do in the white man’s world and they just don’t have it. Trying to make equal what is not just won’t work. Ask Nature.

What I thought was - Australia is a massive place, why can’t aboriginals just go back to the bush and leave civilisation to the white man? There’s enough room for everyone. It’s not as if the aboriginals had a civilisation built that the British came and destroyed it. They just lived off the land, so since there’s thousand’s of spare miles in Australia, civilisation and aboriginals need never bump into each other. Problem solved

Your right the holocaust was a bad example yet i wasnt specifically referring to the jewish people i was refering to the world getting reperations but it wasnt a good example...

Well the whole iq thing maybe right... iq is just a measure of intellect in white mans society yet aboriginals have had the brains and spiritual awereness to harness the tucker off trees, use sap from bark, insects and berries to cure diseases! Stuff that fascinates me since i am studying naturopathy!

Yet i think that the awereness of there culture is lost especially in directionless youth. I would love to go to the bush and meet with the elders who can explain how they use nature to prevent sores and bites so forth becuase unfortunately its all going to dissapear as its handed from generation to generation.

Moving on though.... most aboriginals do live in the bush area and that doesnt solve the problem.. it just isolates them further and allows abuse and crime to fester and not get punished...

I dont know what to do! So sad!

reply to post by Caleb.K

Its a hard problem... but racism is a cop out! The real issue is a lot harder then that, i feel sorry that aboriginal people cannot break the mould that they are stuck in! Its really terrible but its not a matter of the australian people being racist!

Hi Caleb, the mould we put them in, they had their own mould for 65 000 years. We shove them into this "mould" then excpect them to get out of it without allowing to go back to their old ways as their land is gone....Im not saying give it back, just understand the position they are in and HOW they got there.

Originally posted by Caleb.K
Your right the holocaust was a bad example yet i wasnt specifically referring to the jewish people i was refering to the world getting reperations but it wasnt a good example...

Well the whole iq thing maybe right... iq is just a measure of intellect in white mans society yet aboriginals have had the brains and spiritual awereness to harness the tucker off trees, use sap from bark, insects and berries to cure diseases! Stuff that fascinates me since i am studying naturopathy!

Yet i think that the awereness of there culture is lost especially in directionless youth. I would love to go to the bush and meet with the elders who can explain how they use nature to prevent sores and bites so forth becuase unfortunately its all going to dissapear as its handed from generation to generation.

Moving on though.... most aboriginals do live in the bush area and that doesnt solve the problem.. it just isolates them further and allows abuse and crime to fester and not get punished...

I dont know what to do! So sad!

The aborigine’s knowledge of the land if you look at it for what it really is; isn’t an amazing thing and proof of their own advanced ways. It’s basically the first step on the ladder of civilisation. Our ancestors left that rung of the ladder thousands of years ago. They have not.

I agree about the problem of some aborigines being lost between cultures and that is white man’s fault. We should never have tried to integrate them into society. We can pull that sticky plaster off fast, slow, or not at all and let it fester.

The problem of aborigines being lawless when left unchecked out in the bush is their problem and should be no business of civilised Australia. Just think about what goes on in Africa. You can’t police the world only your own.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by Caleb.K

 

Its a hard problem... but racism is a cop out! The real issue is a lot harder then that, i feel sorry that aboriginal people cannot break the mould that they are stuck in! Its really terrible but its not a matter of the australian people being racist!

Hi Caleb, the mould we put them in, they had their own mould for 65 000 years. We shove them into this "mould" then excpect them to get out of it without allowing to go back to their old ways as their land is gone....Im not saying give it back, just understand the position they are in and HOW they got there.

You’re joking right? There’s thousands of miles worth of land exactly the same as the original aboriginal land. They did nothing with the land for 65,000 years. Thats what 90% of Australia is, untouched land.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
it's a shame that still seems so commonplace in Australia. my best friend is Aboriginal and they seem to get the short end of the stick in everything.

I wouldnt say that Donnie. I have lived in Darwin, Broome and Cairsn, all have high populations of aboriginals. I have worked and played sport with them, and I even have dozens of friends that are indigenous. They actually recieve more benefits than white people in terms of social sceurity. They even get paid money to go to relatives funerals, and their kids get paid to go to school. So they dont get the short end of the stick at all IMO.

However, there is still prejudice over here, as there is in every country where minorites are present.

In my opinion the cops should hand these little trouble makers over to the elders of the local aborginal tribe, and let them punish them....last time I saw that happen, the kids never once played up again.

reply to post by Edward 1st

The aborigine’s knowledge of the land if you look at it for what it really is; isn’t an amazing thing and proof of their own advanced ways. It’s basically the first step on the ladder of civilisation. Our ancestors left that rung of the ladder thousands of years ago. They have not. I agree about the problem of some aborigines being lost between cultures and that is white man’s fault. We should never have tried to integrate them into society. We can pull that sticky plaster off fast, slow, or not at all and let it fester. The problem of aborigines being lawless when left unchecked out in the bush is their problem and should be no business of civilised Australia. Just think about what goes on in Africa. You can’t police the world only your own

I hope you read my longer post above to help educate you a little on them

A civilised society is your perception. I see nothing civlised about going to their land and raping and killing them. Colonialism is responsible for over 40 000 million deaths since the 17th century, how is this civilised?
Their society is complex, hunter gatherer does not mean basic in the least.
The destruction of the land is that civilised?
Dont mistake technology advances for 'civilising' a people.
For further reading on what constitues an advanced civlisation, and the "Wests" timeline for uncivilised attocities, I have shared thoughts here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I would be pleased if you took the time to read that
Cheers Zazz