31 Years have passed, Jonestown people murdered not suicide

After watching a CNN documentary tonight about the "Jonestown Massacre" I have decided to do some research.

Could Jim Jones have really convinced 900 people to take their own lives?

When bodies started to hit the floor wouldn't some want to not drink the laced grape Flavor Aid? (yea contrary to popular belief it was Flavor Aid not Cool-Aid.

How could very young children commit suicide?

In my reasearch I have found this little break down:

Source

So how does one break down the numbers? Out of the 913 people who died in Jonestown, I account for “those murdered” thusly:

• I know of no one who would argue that children don’t commit suicide, and were murdered. Using National Geographic’s count, that is 246.

The numbers of seniors (over 65) numbered approximately 180. Almost no one would argue that those unable to defend themselves would be anything other than “murdered.”

The numbers of people injected with poison: For the purposes of this debate, I will split the difference between 70 and 181, arriving at 125. If I saw so many individuals with abscesses in such a proscribed area, I feel the 125 number is a reasonable approximation.

We now have 246 children, 180 seniors over age 65, and approximately 125 injected with poison. That brings us to 551 out of 913, or 60 percent.

However, I assert there are other groups of people who should fall into the category of being murdered:

• Those who drank poison believing that they had only two choices: drink the poison, or be shot by armed guards. Is that “revolutionary suicide”? No, it is not. Their deaths were coerced. The pavilion was surrounded by armed guards. People witnessed others being pulled from their seats and forced to drink or being injected.

• Those who may have voluntarily drunk the poison based on the lies of Jim Jones as told that day. Jones asserted that the children would be taken from us, that the Guyanese Defense Force was on its way and it was armed and would be shooting, etc. If someone “voluntarily” takes their life based on the lies of another, is that really suicide? Wouldn’t the perpetrator of the lie be responsible?

• Those who voluntarily drank the poison through months/years of conditioning that created a state-of-siege mentality. Oftentimes, as many survivors have learned since, the “crises” we were experiencing were – literally – manufactured by Jones himself (e.g. gun shots being fired into the community in September of ‘77). If one commits “revolutionary suicide” based on years of experience, without the knowledge that the experiences themselves were created by the leader, is that suicide? I assert it is murder.

How does one assign a numerical total to the people who fall into the above categories? It is impossible. Perhaps one guideline would be this: During the so-called “September Siege” of 1977, Jones twice asked the approximately 700 people in Jonestown “Who wants to commit revolutionary suicide?” The first vote revealed a total of two who voted “for” (Maria Katsaris and Harriett Tropp). The following day the total rose to three (Carolyn Layton, along with Maria and Harriett).

That constitutes less than one percent of Jonestown’s population who felt revolutionary suicide was an option. Were the percentages higher on November 18, 1978? I say no, not discernibly. Those who were not in Jonestown on that day bolster that argument. Of the approximately 300 or so full-time members who were not in Jonestown, only two committed suicide (one after murdering her children). Again, we are left with a figure of around one percent.

Giving much room for debate, I will say that 75 per cent of those 361 in the above named categories did not commit suicide (though, personally, I feel it is higher). That is 278 people, which – when added to the children and seniors and those injected with poison – brings us to a total of 829 people murdered, or ninety percent.

Finally, I use Jim Jones’ own words, taken from the so-called “death” tape, to refute the assertion that the majority of people meekly acquiesced in their death: “Don’t lay it [your life] down with tears and agony. Stop this hysterics! This is not the way for [people] to die.”

Jones himself tells the world what was happening in Jonestown: Tears. Agony. Hysteria. I can attest that agony and tears and hysteria (and fear) were the operative emotions of that day. The screams heard on the so-called “death” tape were far louder than those which come through on the tape itself.

Mass suicide? Or mass murder? While some did commit suicide, the vast majority of those who perished in Jonestown were murdered. Jonestown should always be considered a mass murder, with some suicide

Any thoughts? Inside info? Did you know anyone involved?

Another interesting site I found dealing with the body count discrepancies the US Gov gave in reports.

Source

What REALLY Happened: The Truth Is In The Numbers

The first headlines the day of the massacre read: “Cult Dies in South American Jungle: 400 Die in Mass Suicide, 700 Flee into Jungle.” By all accounts in the press, as well as People’s Temple statements there were at least 1,100 people at Jonestown. There were 809 adult passports found there, and reports of 300 children (276 found among the dead, and 210 never identified). The headline figures from the first day add to the same number: 1,100.The original body count done by the Guyanese was 408, and this figure was initially agreed to by U.S. Army authorities on site. However, over the next few days, the total of reported dead began to rise quickly. The Army made a series of misleading and openly false statements about the discrepancy. The new total, which was the official final count, was given almost a week later by American authorities as 913. A total of 16 survivors were reported to have returned to the U.S.

Where were the others cult members?

At their first press conference, the Americans claimed that the Guyanese “could not count.” These local people had carried out the gruesome job of counting the bodies, and later assisted American troops in the process of poking holes in the flesh lest they explode from the gasses of decay. Then the Americans proposed another theory — they had missed seeing a pile of bodies at the back of the pavilion. The structure was the size of a small house, and they had been at the scene for days. Finally, we were given the official reason for the discrepancy — bodies had fallen on top of other bodies, adults covering children.It was a simple, if morbid, arithmetic that led to the first suspicions. The 408 bodies discovered at first count would have to be able to cover 505 bodies for a total of 913. In addition, those who first worked on the bodies would have been unlikely to miss bodies lying beneath each other since each body had to be punctured. Eighty-two of the bodies first found were those of children, reducing the number that could have been hidden below others. A search of nearly 150 photographs, aerial and close-up, fails to show even one body lying under another, much less 500.

It's interesting to take another look at the Jonestown Massacre. That is what is was, wasn't it? I don't personally know anyone involved with that cult, but, yeah, I have read some accounts of the few survivors. The drinking of the kool-aid was at first voluntary. But members of this cult who weren't the first to drink and die began to have second thoughts and eventually it was a forced drinking of the kool-aid.

For the life of me, how could someone convince me to drink a poison that I didn't want to drink under threat of death by bullets? Oh, well, the majority of the adult folks in this tribe were already mentally unstable.

As for me, well, let my death be on someone else's hands, not on my own. Meanwhile.........run away run away............some few folks did that.

Interesting find:

Image of some of the dead (not gory)


Notice the crossbow and arrows (or bolts) on the bottom right of the pic.

Were there any reports of people being killed with a weapon of this type?

I recently watched a documentary on cults and brain washing - scary stuff!

I think you need to keep one important fact in mind - these people followed Jim Jones to Guyana - another country!

They also saw JJ as prophet, even god in carnate.

Ive read extensively on the conspiracy theories around the Jonestown - but I can't take them seriously for the above fact - these people willingly packed up their lives, sold everything and planted their families in another country - that type of loyalty suggests cultist/brain washing behavior.

Jonestown was HUGE. it happened three times longer ago than 9/11, and killed only 1/3 as many people, but it gets like, less than 0.01% the coverage.

Google Video Link

Some interesting connections between the CIA, mind control and Jonestown in this doc. Seems logical to me that something was awfully wonky down there in Jonestown. What better place to experiment, way out in the jungle where if anything goes wrong they can control the scene and the info that comes out of there. IIRC, the one survivor - she may be in the doc above but I forget - heard screams throughout the night. Why would they be screaming if they were committing suicide?

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
Jonestown was HUGE. it happened three times longer ago than 9/11, and killed only 1/3 as many people, but it gets like, less than 0.01% the coverage.

I agree this needs to be re-investigated.


To the poster of the mind control post. There are a few sites that want to link Jim Jones to the CIA, and Jonestown as a MK-ULTRA experiment

ok ... S&F for the reseach!!

Yes, I think every time I hear of Jonesfarm on the tv, I tune in. Last I saw a doc on the tv about it was about.....a year ago(?) if that.. I don't know of anyone personally but, from the doc i last saw, a survivor (a guy) said something to the fact that he saw weapons being pointed at the crowds and being told to drink the 'kool aid' or be shot..

he was coming back from gathering fire wood or something and over heard this on the loadspeaker.. he freaked, but hid somewhere close by and listened and realized what was going on. He decided that the guards would be watching and ensuring that EVERYONE was acccounted for which ment that if they saw him they would bring him in with the others..

He made his way back to the woods and knew where the airstrip was located but it was a bit of a hike to get there.. but, he got there and the guards were there as well..

I don't remember how he survived or what he did after that.. that's all that i can remember..

I never knew the US Army was there, which is a head scratcher to me unless they were there for support and take out the bad guys.. the whole story to me is a REAL grey area in the fact that the numbers did match up .. and it seems the more you dig the more questions seem to surface.

I know that anyone with this type of 'congreation' is a immedaite suspect of being a 'cult' .. I know this because I was in a street ministry back in the early 80's and someone that was in leadership left us and starting spouting off 'cult cult' .. grrrr..

well.. as always, people were always welcome to come and go as they pleased, and we were just trying to help people in need when they needed it.. JF when mention is IMO the #1 example ppl look to for a 'guide' for what a cult sould be, and proably rightly so..


I dunno, it just seems really odd that so many people would just without question, take their own life.. just REALLY seems odd..

After hearing audio that was recorded when infants, children, adults, etc. were forced to get shots/drink the poison, I can say that many definitely did not choose suicide for themselves. It was forced upon them.
The audio is very disturbing... I'll never get it out of my head unfortunately.

It can be found here: listverse.com...

Number 9 of the recordings.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by bvproductions]

A audio Tape Found in Jonestown on November 19th after the killings catalouged by the FBI as Q 875

SOURCE

A tape designated by the FBI as Q 875 was found along with the hundreds of others at Jonestown. There was apparently nothing special about the location of the tape, or any differences in appearance to distinguish it from the others, or anything else. It was just there. As opposed to all the other tapes, though, this is the only tape made after the deaths.

Q 875 consists of four broadcast news stories recorded off the air on November 19, 1978, all concerning the deaths of Congressman Leo Ryan and members of his party "last night" at the Port Kaituma airstrip in Guyana. Two of the broadcasts are of Guyanese origin, and two are American, including an ABC broadcast. The first newscast includes "unconfirmed reports reaching Georgetown" of mass suicide at Jonestown. Later broadcasts said that Temple attorneys Charles Garry and Mark Lane are safe, although at the time there was still "nothing [confirmed] about reports of mass suicide in the commune."

Transcript of the mysterious tape


Hmmm...Who was recording this tape if everyone is dead? A CIA operative?

The transcript is a rather interesting read note the comments made by "persons at the recording end"

This tape consists of four news stories recorded off the air on November 19, 1978, all concerning the deaths of Congressman Leo Ryan and members of his party “last night” at the Port Kaituma airstrip in Guyana. Two of the broadcasts are of Guyanese origin, and two are American, including an ABC broadcast.

The first newscast includes “unconfirmed reports reaching Georgetown” of mass suicide at Jonestown. Later reports said that Temple attorneys Charles Garry and Mark Lane are safe, although at the time there was still “nothing about reports of mass suicide in the commune.”

The reports are sketchy and somewhat inaccurate on detail. For example, Patty Parks, the only defecting Temple member who was killed at the airstrip, is identified as Patty Mark.

Throughout the broadcasts, there are unknown people moving about at the recording end. Doors open and close, chairs squeak, voices murmur, voices shush others, there is at least one electronic beep of some duration. More importantly, the stories coming out of the Northwest District are the only items on the tape. As a new story begins, someone tunes the radio to another station – ostensibly looking for more coverage? – then turns the recording equipment off.

Almost as important, the voices are American Even though most of the conversation is unintelligible, there are a couple of exceptions. When the ABC broadcast cuts to the interview with Autumn Ryan, the congressman’s mother, someone says quietly, “Oh boy.” During the third broadcast – which was the last on side one – someone says “#” following word that there will be autopsies done on the bodies at the airstrip. Whether the speaker was referring to the decision to perform the autopsies, or was upset about something else unrelated, there is no way of knowing.

Summery of Tape Q875






[edit on 11/15/09 by Djdoubt03]

[edit on 11/15/09 by Djdoubt03]

OK DJ s&f for effort.
seems uncanny IMO that all the members of this cult should take their lives voluntarily, A mothers first instinct is to protect their child and the elders, and my big question would be, Who policed the guards ???...

In Refrence to tape Q875

1) Who made the tape? Most of the people at Jonestown were dead. The few known surviving members of the Jonestown community had left considerably earlier – some before the deaths actually started – or were stunned by what surrounded them when they returned after escaping to the bush. Yet the people who made this tape were calm, competent and even methodical in the recording.



On the other hand, there were no confirmed reports of the mass deaths when the recordings were made. That means it was much too early for the known Guyanese military or American State Department personnel to have arrived on the scene. Anyone representing a governmental agency on the ground at that time was there earlier by one or two days than any acknowledged presence.



2) Where was the tape made? It seems to have been made in the Jonestown radio room. The space is small with the echoes of an interior setting, there are sounds of metallic and/or heavy objects being shifted, and there is an electronic pulse near the end of the last segment. Moreover, the tape is similar in tone to many of the other tapes made at that location.



It could have been made in the Georgetown radio room – and if the recorded ABC broadcast was from a television instead of a radio, that might be more likely – but that adds an additional layer of questions about transporting the tape to the Jonestown settlement.



3) What were people doing as they made the tape? The Guyana military personnel who came into Jonestown on Monday found a contaminated crime scene. There had been some looting – attributed to Amerindians and Guyanese living in the area – and more looting followed. By the time American military personnel arrived to clean up the bodies, some buildings had been ransacked, and paper was strewn everywhere. Were the people who made the tape doing other things at the same time, cloaking it under the mess of simultaneous vandalism?



4) Why did anyone bother to make a tape? The other Jonestown tapes documented the history of Peoples Temple; they gave lessons, either instructional or institutional; they included loyalty oaths and statements that could be used against people who defected; they provided entertainment in the form of music or comedy. Even the so-called “death tape” can be considered part of the continuum, a final message of resistance, defiance and political outrage directed to the world outside.

This tape does none of the above. It is an obituary, written in first person, by the deceased, after death. The motivation for making the tape defies reasonable explanation.

5) Who left the tape behind, and why?

SOURCE


Here is a quote from said transscript of tape Q875:

Newscaster: Tom Rushton said autopsies will be performed on the bodies before they’re brought back to the United States.

Person at recording end: (a bad word for poop).

Hmmm..... Sound like some one was worried about autopsies being performed. And in the end only a hand full of the 900+ dead were autopsied. I smell Cover Up

[edit on 11/15/09 by Djdoubt03]

[edit on 11/15/09 by Djdoubt03]

reply to post by Djdoubt03

Seems likely if the CIA were aware of all this, They would have some sort of covert operation inforce and the location under surveillance and monitoring via microphones or the like,
And what of the local police authority they should have had an inkling of what was going down..

Jonestown was just one in a long string of cults set up by MKUltra as exercises in mind control.

The ultimate goal was achieved here. Parents were induced to willingly murder their own children before killing themselves.

Of course not everyone co-operated, and the CIA had to put down the stubborn remnants for fear they gave out incriminating information, so the experiments have continued.

They will be happy when they have us all conditioned to kill our families and ourselves on demand.


survivor

[edit on 15/11/09 by Kailassa]

People en masse get talked into stuff all the time. JJ decides he has it right. He then seeks people who are struggling and very malleable. These people are lonely and someone says a bunch of stuff that suddenly makes real sense to them. Then he preaches over time infusing his covert message with overt messages of love, adoration and acceptance. These people slowly become brainwashed and BAM...ritual mass suicide.

Now I am not saying the children took the medicine by their own volition. Clearly the parents probably acted or talked them into it but you can't just dismiss it by saying the first instinct of a parent is to protect. Yes that statement is correct but in this case their instinct was to protect and they believed the true way to protect was to follow suit with the ritual.

It's the same thing as Christian Science. You have a child who is found to have severe asthma. A non Christian Science mother would want to protect, hence the mother takes her child to the doctor. A Christian Science mother wants to protect but believes that the best way to protect is to pray to God that the crisis passes. So in essence the JJ followers could easily have been led down this innapropriate path via brainwashing and passed the same concept on to their child via the Flavor-Aid.

-Kyo

Nice Idea and theory.

On a side note, I have never trusted punch at party's till after I see a few others drink it first for a good 20 mins.

I have no links for this but I had conversations with a coworker about 8 years ago that worked for the Guyanese police force. He said that this was "wet work". In other words people were killed outright. Why? Gold.

Wow...I am surprised that no one is commenting on the mysterious tape found by the FBI after the killings, clearly showing that someone else may be involved ie CIA or some other Black Ops.