Psychological Question

reply to post by femmefreud


cont.. Her daughter was so upset , Her Mom yelled at her and said it was her fault they were late because apparently she had went grocery shopping and brought up groceries and went back down for the last bag and started cleaning the garage, knowing she had to get ready and had people waiting. and her girl didnt even think about the groceries , another thing she wouldnt have known were to put them. So her mom said if she would have put them away they could have been there sooner, Wrong , So needless to say by the time they got there the food was cold and picked over and the last guest was leaving, and all her daughters friends had gone without her . She could not see anything wrong with this and was not accountable for anything,, And as far as the cleaning up not a word from her. oh except .. she said to me oh i wouldnt believe what my daughter said about vacuming and dusting for me after the house is cleaned, she cant even put groceries away. Im so arggghhhh... Maybe i should just poof... Maybe im in over my head... but it hurts my heart. She normally would not say hurtfull things like that or yell at her daughter, I think maybe shes frustrated with her life more and more...

[edit on 27-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply to post by femmefreud


Dear Heart,

You knew this was a LONG TERM PROJECT.

You knew this would not be easy.

You knew y'all have barely started.

You knew youngest daughter was more than grieved and had more than a few issues with mom.

You knew mom was an Olympic class rationalizer and denier.

Take some slow breaths . . . 6-8 seconds in; 6-8 seconds out for 30-90 seconds.

YOU HAVE DONE A GREAT WORK SO FAR. YOU HAVE BEEN AND ARE LOVING, RESPONSIBLE, AWARE, INFORMED, PERCEPTIVE, DISCERNING, CARING, PATIENT, PERSISTENT, THOUGHTFUL, RESILIENT, RIGHT, HAVE MOM & KIDS BEST INTERESTS SELFLESSLY AT HEART, . . .

The 14 y.o. daughter alone is worth it. The older daughter alone is worth it. The son is gone from the home but his relationship with his mom needs progress. The mom alone is worth it.

I don't know if it's workable, or not . . . something to give a lot of thought, and were it me, a lot of prayer to . . . I might say to the Mom,

###########

I want to offer my home to your daughter for 3 months. She is more than a little exasperated with all the hoarding and the friction it causes. This is not good for her at this age of her life.

You also don't seem to need both the hoarding and her to deal with. How about we see if she would like to live with me for 3 months to give you that long to get your act together vis a vis the hoarding? When you have the home liveable and presentable again, then she would move back.

Then, you could have a new relationship focusing more on what she needs in a mom these last years of her growing up--years which are racing past . . . for the moment, while you sit stuck on top of a mound of junk ignoring many great needs your daughter reasonably and rightfully has of you.

It would give her a desperately needed break from the stress of the hoarding and you AND HER HOME CONSUMED by it 24/7. It would give you a chance to focus on getting your own act together without having to deal so much with a desperately needy teenager.

##########

There's a Bible verse I've often fell short of . . . BE NOT WEARY IN WELL DOING.

YOU HAVE STARTED ON A GRAND WORK. Now is not the time to bail out. Rescuing lives . . . so long as you take care of yourself first . . . is a worthy task.

What happened with son coming home for Thanksgiving?

What's going on with older daughter? Isn't she "living" in the home, too?

I wonder . . . where does your friend like to travel to?

What would happen if you, with her agreement, 'abducted' her to a weekend or 3 days away somewhere with you driving. Taking her away for some serious reflection . . . and lots of driving hours where she'd be a captive for meaningful dialogue. Preferably maybe to the mountains or the sea coast.

I'd draw her out on her failed marriage; her relationship with her own dad and mother; ATTACHMENT DISORDER issues--WORTH LOOKING UP, I'M CONVINCED ATTACHMENT DISORDER IS UNDERNEATH THE HOARDING DYNAMICS . . .

I might come up with some vivid imagry . . . about her heart . . . say she has a dozen rooms in her heart . . . that Daddy didn't fill with Daddy love like he should have . . . and hubby didn't either.

And, consequently, she's been stuffing barn yard lots full of poo into all those rooms because the hollow emptiness is sooooo painful. Only the poo doesn't really help that much either--it's just better than all the totally empty hollowness . . . slightly.

Then periodically as fitting, I'd chide her . . .

Ahhhhh, I see you're still stuffing poo in your heart. What's the balance today--did you throw more out than you stuffed in or vice versa? How does it smell? Did you rub some in your hair for a real earthy mousse?

I think I'd also insure that I had a meal alone weekly with the 14 year old whether she lives at your house, or not. And I'd affirm her up one side and down the other with virtually no negative input unless she asked for your honest opinion about something. Just love on her and affirm her.

Give her thought strategies to turn mom's poison off in her mind. Teach her to let mom's mental illness junk be mom's junk without her taking it on. Help her understand that mom cannot "make" her angry or depressed or whatever unless the daughter GIVES MOM THAT POWER. She does NOT HAVE to let mom be IN CONTROL OF DAUGHTER'S EMOTIONS.

#####

I might also experiment erratically . . . with paradoxical comments . . .


Ahhhhh, I see it's piled higher and deeper again today. Which barnyard did you get this lot from? Did you hire a front end loader or a dump truck? When do you think we should schedule lighting the match? I understand poo burns real well.

Of course, I wouldn't go that route if I thought there was some chance she'd actually light the match.

If I felt she was being particularly cloaked in denial, I might catch her in her chair and either carry or 'knock over' piles and stacks in her direction or so it would be difficult for her to get out of her chair.

That is, going with the resistence sometimes is the only option. The more one pulls to pull the person away from their resistance, the more they pull the other direction. Sometimes, the only solution is to push them wolesale into the pile of poo, so to speak.

In this case, maybe literally.

What would she do if you piled her chair with stacks of stuff and all around it and in front of it so she could not use it.

Then just made the observation that you thought she preferred her house and furniture to be UNUSABLE given all the evidence. And help her FEEL AT THAT MOMENT that her daughter feels that way about the whole house 24/7. That the daughter feels as

SHUT OUT OF HER OWN HOME AND HER MOM'S LIFE [BY MOM'S HOARDING] AS MOM FEELS WALLED OFF FROM HER OWN CHAIR AT THAT MOMENT.

IF I THOUGHT THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY, I might even beggin carrying stuff from the garage and stacking it in the bathroom and all over the kitchen floor and counters so it was difficult to get to the fridge and the sink etc.

When she fussed, I'd just observe that she seems to be hell bent to end up in an assisted living home with this home condemed and that you thought you'd just help her hasten things along.

TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS.

You are on the scene. I'm just throwing out a range of suggestions.

You are in a VERY STRONG POSITION. No, we can't wave a magic wand and change people, thankfully. But you are THE ONE POWERFUL REDEMPTIVE FORCE IN ALL THEIR LIVES. AVOID DISCOUNTING THE CLOUT AND POWER YOU HAVE.

USE IT.

You will know when to add some firm pressure and when to back off a bit. You will know when to experiment with paradoxical things and when not to.

WHEN YOU DO use paradoxical things--it's best to play them straight as though quite sincerely . . . including to the right moment for things to sink in. Then, leave it hang there as the person's choice to go that route or change.

I think one of your more important and powerful things is to be a resource for the 14 year old regardless of what mom does or doesn't do. I'd certainly go over the materials you've collected on the hoarding disorder with the 14 year old. She desperately needs help in making sense out of all the craziness as well as help in KNOWING that it's NOT her fault at all.

PLEASE BE SURE YOU ARE TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF. This may be a very important expenditure of time and energy. Yet, you MUST take care of yourself and your other priorities. Otherwise, you're no good to anyone.

God be with you and them.

post by BO XIAN

What happened with son coming home for Thanksgiving?

He will be coming at christmas... The older daughter bhas unofficially moved out, this is another sad story Bo, her daughter had been looking for a job, picked up alot of applications, she also has a boyfriend she spends alot of time with, which is about an hour away from mom. To make along story short, My friend was so upset one day because her daughter had brought the beau into the house ,out of the blue they show up her daughter was spending that weekend with beau in fact recently the weekends got longer and longer, im pretty sure she did not want to come home.....
well this was just weird her popping in with him and saying they were in the neighborhood,and not calling ahead, my friend was livid because she says she should have called me ,the cat pans were full and smelled bad in here , when there is way more to it than that. it must have been unbeleivable for him as it is most people .. so the next day the daughter came home , and left again to take back job applications , and my friend called me saying she found all the apps that were for jobs here in town in the trash . the next thing you know she landed a job in the beaus town , Here the kicker my friend says to me i think she brought him here on purpose to see my house so he would feel sorry for her and she could move in with him . It sure made sense. And it didnt seem to upset her the way it should have... Bo i think her denial is the worst. I do think a scenario thing ypour talking about might help , I just need to find the right topic, one that will hit her where it hurts, she is a very gullible person in some ways, and yes some of her probs stem from mom , Dad died young she always speaks hioghly of him not of mother, mother was mean to Dad and yelled alot, Moms a published author has a B.A or 2 also pursuing another at age 73. Her fav kid was killed in a auto accident a boy 20 years old supposedly devasted mother as im sure it would. im still trying to get peices of her past so things fit. Thanks Bo

[edit on 27-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 27-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply to post by femmefreud


WOW.

WHAT A LOAD.

Where is her (your friend's) mom? In the same town?

Have you met the mom? How rational etc. is she? Is it possible you or a counselor could . . . over maybe 3-4 lunches or sessions facilitate some healing in that relationship?

You might have to prep mom several sessions alone first.

Mom likely needs to apologize for . . . drowning in her grief over the son so much she left this daughter--your friend--"Mildred" to

FEEL that she was UTTERLY WORTHLESS to mom or anyone else.

She may have married a man that helped continue that message. I don't recall what you said about hubby.

I assume Mom doesn't go to Mildred's house either???

In terms of phoning Mildred that she was bringing boy friend by . . . YES AND NO.

MOST SANE FAMILIES handle quite well spur of the moment stuff REGARDLESS. . . . partly because most sane families do not have cat poo for carpet and cat pee for perfume and piles of poo everywhere.

Mildred: IT IS NOT UNREASONABLE FOR CHILDREN TO THINK THAT THEY CAN BRING FRIENDS OVER WITHOUT MAKING A BIG PRODUCTION OF IT. Mildred--YOUR PATHOLOGY was the problem, NOT that your daughter did not call. BLAMING your daughter for YOUR pathology is DYSFUNCTIONAL, DENIAL, DESTRUCTIVE to you, to your psyche, to your emotions, to your relationship with your daughter and has negative fallout in your relationship with the 14 year old.


Yes, it can be nice to have the thoughtfulness of some warning in case one wants to slightly tidy things up a bit. THAT WAS NOT AN OPTION, MILDRED. THERE IS NO TIDYING UP MOUNTAINS OF BULL POO EVERYWHERE. THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM, MILDRED, NOT YOUR DAUGHTER'S.

I should note . . . you probably have to dance a somewhat fine line--hugging her close with your arm around her shoulders while you kick her butt to make progress all at the same time. It is MOST OF THE TIME a somewhat higher priority to maintain a good grip on the intimacy & bond between you.

However, on VERY RARE occasions, it is perfectly rational that she realizes that mountains of poo and obsessive suicidal affection for the mountains of poo CAN ALSO put at risk her relationship with you. That you are NOT an inexhaustible Friend.

I think I would tell her on a trip away . . .

Mildred . . . I have to tell you something.

Your 14 year old is soooooooooo distressed over the mountains of bull poo and your obsessive affections for all the stinking piles as more important to you than she is . . .

that she has gone and gotten herself pregnant just so she can feel some affection and love in her life. Taking a page from her irrational, unrealistic mother, I think she has fantasies of moving in with boyfriend somewhere or even a home for unwed mothers somewhere as a way to ESCAPE THE LABRYNTH OF BULL POO PILES.

[then I'd let her wrestle with that a while--particularly if she has no access to a cell phone. You might have to clue the 14 year old in that you are setting mom up to face herself a bit more dramatically and to just hang loose about it for a bit]

At some point, say with 5-6 hours or so left of dialogue before she returned to her home . . . I'd say . . .

Wellll, Mildred. Jr Mildred has NOT YET gotten herself pregnant. HOWEVER, IT IS A VERY REAL POSSIBILITY--even a probability--IF YOU PERSIST IN DRAGGING YOUR FEET ON GETTING YOUR ACT TOGETHER.

FOR YOUR SAKE AND FOR HER SAKE . . . YOU MUST BE RUTHLESS WITH YOURSELF AND SHOW YOUR PATHOLOGY NO MERCY. GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER.

Where it is difficult, call for help. AVOID RATIONALIZATIONS AND EXCUSES. I'm serving you notice that I'm not going to pay attention to excuses. You may as well flush them down the toilet. They will no longer have any clout with me. You are well beyond excuse time. You are like an alcoholic court ordered for his 9th DUI arrest into a group program and the first words out of his mouth are: "I don't need to be here. I don't have an alcohol problem."

You have an alcohol problem Mildred. Your drink of choice is piles of bull poo. GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER. We can help. You MUST DECIDE TO LIVE and quit killing yourself and all that's dear to you under mountains of bull poo.

########

Feel free to U2U me on my earlier or this.

PLEASE KNOW THAT I'M YOUR CHEERLEADER FIRMLY IN YOUR CAMP.

reply to post by femmefreud


iN A WAY . . . ONE COULD SORT OF

hypothesize that

the piles of bull poo are a kind of pseudo womb that she never felt she had with MOM.

A kind of safe cave shielding her from the world and the pains of feeling worthless and alone etc.

Only it doesn't work and can never really work. It's just the best coping strategy she's been able to come up with and serves her obsessive stuff quite well.

Which kind of gets back to the affection thing . . . affirming all that you can affirm and giving all the affection you can manage to get her to tolerate/accept . . . COULD BEGIN to fractionally fill in those gapingly empty love buckets from childhood.

As could some craft project, art project. Does she have any skills? Would she take a class with you? If she could produce something beautiful and/or useful, it could help her feel better about herself.

Originally posted by femmefreud
post by BO XIAN

 

I do think a scenario thing ypour talking about might help ,

Not sure what specifically you're referring to there.

If you'll let me know

and let me know what say her 12 most important interests, preferences, likes, fasicnations, affections for . . . interests are . . .

I might be able to come up with some suggestions.