Psychological Question

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by elaine
Hoarding is a mental disorder. I think it's caused by insecurity or fear.

What absolute poppycock.

Hoarding is natural. If by our very nature we as a human race had never hoarded anything, then we'd still be running around naked (like mad apes).


Edit: on topic. Suggest she take up a creative hobby. Possibly writing or painting or music.

From the sounds of things she's just addicted to gathering.

[edit on 18-11-2009 by mr-lizard]

I agree, poppycock, if that were true we would all be hoarders. Hoarding is natural, but the degree it is needed can vary.

[edit on 18-11-2009 by seagrass]

reply to post by seagrass


Let me know if you get the link .. Ok ?

Originally posted by femmefreud
reply to post by seagrass

 

SEAGRASS. I sent a link to you via u2u , you may find it interesting. Your people sound sweet, And lucky to have you !!

I saw the link, and although it is interesting to read psychological treatment techniques, and because I have a degree in psychology I should find it helpful, but it is my degree and my education that have left me leary of psychology.
It has it's uses, and some good info, but at the base of it all, I find the solutions to be simpler.
It starts with belief systems of good vs bad.

They are only lucky to have me because I clean their house for them.. and I am lucky because they pay me.
I can't help them with the hoarding problem. They are determined to acquire and craft. Having me come clean was a solution seeking behavior. She hasn't asked me to clear out and organize since it didn't last. Now I just come clean and she loves having me show up. It makes her feel better.

[edit on 18-11-2009 by seagrass]

They are only lucky to have me because I clean their house for them.. and I am lucky because they pay me.

reply to post by seagrass


Why i say they are lucky to have you is because you seem to understand them, and you seem kind in general. I bet its more to them than you cleaning house. Well im no expert but id say that psychology seems to be your thing. You seem to have a connection to people somehow, You seem to have the ability to make people at ease around you and truust you, You clean their houses but you seem to analyze them too. and except them.

One of them says that I am the only person she would ever let clean her house, or go in her bedroom. lol

I suppose that says something about me. I do accept many things in people that others do not. If I don't, I try to understand, usually by asking questions or watching, or putting myself in the scenario to see what it might feel like.

On the other hand, I am just as judgmental as the next person, I just don't usually act or speak on it. In fact, doing so makes me very uncomfortable. Just as being judged is very uncomfortable for me.

I have always sought to understand human behavior. It makes me easy to be around because I seem understanding or empathetic. I usually tell people when they complain about themselves, what might be going on. What I see. But it takes a trust in another persons ability to handle it for me to do that.

Right now, I am more concerned about you than I am your friend. Because I once tried to help my hoarders, I realized that it wasn't needed. I spent a lot of time trying to find solutions for their lifestyle. I came up with all kinds of ideas and shared them.
I had to fight them on lots of things. It was futile.
I thought I was doing something good, being helpful, when in reality I was just adding to their discomfort. Adding to the guilt, creating more problems than I was solving. And with a lot of work and effort to boot. (yes they paid me)

Then, after one small conversation about minimalism vs hoarding I think she accepted her situation as "the way I am". And now isn't so depressed and actually finds it rather amusing. Two hoarders living together with their dogs. As long as I come clean she says she can at least have people on the main floor.

Also as people get older they acquire more stuff, can't part with the memories, or are saving it for their kids. As long as they feel it is bad to have that much stuff, they will be unhappy. When they can justify it, accept themselves and let go of the social stigma... then perhaps the "need" goes away, the compulsion goes away and they can finally relax. When they can look at it objectively rather than emotionally.

Now if you add low self esteem, hopelessness, social judgment, guilt, and various other negative attitudes to it, sure, depression is likely to follow.

Just think of it like this... If you put all of her stuff in a mansion... would it be an unreasonable amount? Do you think she would need to fill the mansion up to capacity still?

reply to post by seagrass

Just think of it like this... If you put all of her stuff in a mansion... would it be an unreasonable amount? Do you think she would need to fill the mansion up to capacity still?

No she doest have quite that much now, But yes i believe she would fill it up. she keeps everything,newspapers ,just picks out the living section, keys ,shoestrings. enoughr bags of clothes to clothe 500 people.dishes . 2 or 3 of every cleaner shampoo air freshener,you can imagine. 14 cats , she collects brass, eagles wizards masks feathers beads marbles, magazines vacum cleaners ,fans old computer parts, rubberband markes pens. and anything blue

The anything blue makes me laugh. There is a bird that tries to attract its mate by collecting anything blue.

When I went through my hoarders house.. I told her she cannot buy anymore paintbrushes for the rest of her life.
I told her to collect something else now.

I couldn't believe how many things were still in the bags with the receipts. She would be like... "oh yeah!" like it was Christmas.

14 cats??? wow.
Mine had 3 dogs and I thought that was a lot.

reply to post by seagrass

Walmart has nothing on her, health and beauty stuff, cleaning stuff. she just went grocery shopping and said she spent 200.00 she dont cook and there is only 2 of them there at the moment, So im figuring cat food and litter probably, That is probably the worst part is all the fur and the smell, she trys to keep it up but with that many impossible Oh dvd and cds at least 300 or so . oh and i for got wolves and indians and lions tigers zebras, carosel horses, used garbage and grocery bags,jars instant oatmeal. dont get me started on holiday items.

reply to post by femmefreud


I dont think i mentioned she lives in a 2 bedroom 1 barh apaetment.

reply to post by seagrass

Why do people smoke knowing it is "bad" for them? And controversially others? Why do people race cars? Jump out of airplanes? Play with snakes? Why do people do many of the things that are bad or unhealthy for them?

Why do we care?

missed you seagrass - seriously

yep, mine have all that too. And more.
So does my mom, but she lives on a farm so it looks better and is spread from attic to shed to barn to shop to green house...
and about that many cats...outside.

With perspective and the size of the place, it changes things.
Since she lives in a small apartment, the collections seem extreme and or insane.
On a farm, she would be "practical". There would be storage for the holiday items. The jars of stuff able to be organized on a pantry shelf...

But classic hoarders aren't seeming to be all that interested in order.
They like having it surround them, engulf them.
They like it like we like the term "cozy".

They seem to like their animals more than people.

and like with all things OCD, it is about control.
Something they can control. Anorexic women have been found to say that it was something they could control in a chaotic world. What hoarders are trying to control seems just as strange, but they get to control what they have.
And then like all things taken to the extreme, it begins to control them instead.

reply to post by seagrass
And then like all things taken to the extreme, it begins to control them instead.



Thats exactly as it seems, We talked yesterday she wants to get it cleaned up; for sons arrival and xmas, So i asked her ,you mean get rid of things? She said i guess or make room in my storage. I love junk myself . I would say 50 % of the stuf is garbage and she has alot of really neat things also, and i think i forgot to mention rocks, and unicorns and dolphins popeye betty boop and the tin man. im sure there are more. oh yea candles. You could mot set down a glass on her dressers or coffee table of kitche table , no room , Everywhere is stacked waste high just a very small trail. I dont know where to start, Im sure she dont either.

[edit on 19-11-2009 by femmefreud]

With perspective and the size of the place, it changes things

reply to post by seagrass


Your right about that if she had a bigger place it would not seem so bad, So maybe its not ??? that sheds another light.

There is a certain liberation in letting go and releasing stuff. My hoarders like to do it in waves. Not all at once.

It is a process and an adjustment. If you help her, my best advice is to let her decide what is let go of. Offer reasons and questions for why she keeps a certain thing. Offer her ways to feel better about releasing it...such as the ability to write off donations on taxes..etc.

they are usually practical people who see value in the objects they have. It is not garbage to them. So don't treat it like garbage.

If she can just work on one room. Like the guest room for her son, it would be a start. But don't be surprised when the room is back to it's original state again, once he is gone.

reply to post by seagrass

It is a process and an adjustment. If you help her, my best advice is to let her decide what is let go of. Offer reasons and questions for why she keeps a certain thing. Offer her ways to feel better about releasing it...such as the ability to write off donations on taxes..etc.

Yes thats what i told her , to just let me know what to do and i will do it , Oh and i know it will be back that way, I worked my azz off doing it before and poof. i wont give up on her , But cuz it get back agin she doesnt want help cuz she feels bad.

Just wanted to let you know i took everything you all bounced off me this past week and ,came up with a plan that i hoped would work, i went over their with a milk crate a little filing box, alphebetized and little different colored stickers, and i told her we would have one color for garage sell boxes one for donations one for storage and for trash and we would start in a room and go thru one pile at a time and as we fill ed them up; i would take them to designated areas.
I am bringing yard sale stuff to my house we will have sell here, so we will pile it in my garage . and the filing box and cards are for the ones going to storage, we will number the box i told her and list everything inside under that number, so if she needed something she could look it up; and go right to it, and what we dont sell we will donate , and then we will all work at keeping it up; best we can, And she actually was ok with it , she tried to argue , and i said just hear me out. and she did and i actually got her motivated she was adding her own ideas ,, I told her your the boss, Im going to do my best not to argue when she keeps a useless item, its apperently not useless to her. So woo hoo. we also talked openly about maybe why she keeps everything like she does ,i threw alot of the reasoning i got from you all out there and she agreed and some things she answered on her own, so she is aware of why and that she does these things. so i was shocked really , First round went well lets see how it goes when we actually start packing , Im sure i will want to strangle her and will prob tell her that a few times, but it will be fun i hope. at the same time. i tease her alot and we laugh about it . So thanks to all check back in case i hit a roadblock. you all have been great.
P:S. AND SOMEONE IS TAKING THE CATS AWAY ALL BUT HER ORIGINAL 4. SO THATS A REAL GOOD THING , FROM 14 TO 4 CATS
[edit on 20-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by femmefreud]

Good luck. It can be fun going through all that crap.

reply to post by femmefreud


:-)

reply to post by femmefreud

WONDERFUL! WONDERFUL! WONDERFUL!

CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU.

The 10 cats leaving 4 is a miracle in itself. YEA!

THE LAUGHTER AND GOOD NATURED TEASING ARE PRICELESS.

I feel much more hopeful now. You are a real trooper. YEA!

I thought you had some chance for it to turn out that way but didn't know what percent chance it was.

Without harping destructively on any one part . . . it might be useful to periodically read an article about such and discuss it while you work.

I also wonder if she doesn't need some healthy affectioni--touching her hand fittingly; rubbing her shoulders and heck; hugs etc. It is almost like her inner person is very . . . touch starved, emotional intimacy starved or some such. Maybe I"m off base there but you would know.

Am so relieved to read your report. Thanks for the update.

reply to post by femmefreud


Yes, ff, thanks for giving the update. This is about as much as you could hope for. When she is emotionally healthy, it will be reflected in her environment. When she is not doing as well....this will be reflected also.
It will wax and wane.

I hope she will feel better when it's done. You'll know. I personally believe she will. For a while, anyway.

I'm glad she had you to help her through this for now. Seriously, it could be so much worse if done by strangers. This way, she is still able to exercise some control.