Psychological Question

reply to post by Sparky63


Thank you , You make it sound so easy. You know she is a giving person especially,when someone is needy. That could be an option, its just getting her to ready it to be taken away , she wont let anyone help much, she says its somthing she has to do, which is go through it first, and she most likely will keep more than she will let go. So we will see, Thanks again

reply to post by berenike

I just can't help thinking how I'd feel if someone came into my home and started to try and persuade me to get rid of things that they couldn't see the value of. How could an outsider make decisions about what I should keep and what was expendable?

Thats so true, I am like you im not a hoarder but i have my share of junk, and i had a friend house sit for me while on vacation, and he thought he would do me a favor and go thru paperwork and whatever else and throw things out, I was livid so yes i get that ..

This is just my two cents, so don't get me wrong. I think this lady who ever she is , has a very good friend looking out for her. You have this
on your mind. I take that as something good inside telling you, she needs some help somewhere.
The situation can lead to big trouble and sounds unsanitary.
Though the situation sounds fragile I think to do nothing, would be the only wrong thing to do.
SnF on a really great and caring thread.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by berenike


Certainly I'm in favor of leaving folks with free-will and authority over their stuff.

From the sounds of things, we are talking here, about a woman who really is on a slippery slide to oblivion.

It would be important to enlist her reason--as much as is accessible; her free will; her kid's support and use all the leverage in the relationship with her close friends that might be available.

AND ALL THAT MAY NOT BE ENOUGH.

Yes, I've been a pretty intense therapist in my day. I play for keeps and was usually credited with effecting change in much shorter times than usual.

And, I've mostly thrown out ideas for her close friend to consider and as brain-storming to trigger ideas of her own.

It is mostly 'triage time' in that she seems to have enough reason left that maybe she really can be enlisted in rescuing herself.

I would not encourage her close friend to take such outrageous risks and actions as to serioiusly risk the relationship.

However, I would be willing to crowd the limits to rescue my beloved friend from the dreadful end this lady is headed for if she is not turned around.

CERTAINLY TRYING THE CHARITY ROUTE IS A GREAT IDEA.

I suspect much of her stuff is articles, magazines, papers etc. that only the recycling business would have the least interest for. The clothing might be justifiably lobbied for on behalf of charity.

And, OF COURSE, enlisting a local counselor would be a high priority. I'm just skeptical that the lady will tolerate that.

THE CONTROL issues would certainly be racheted up by heavy-handedness. It just sounds like there may not be a lot of options. Certainly persuasion is preferable. It just usually doesn't get very far when a person is so deeply into this sort of problem.

Sometimes the control issues can be mollified somewhat by offering a 'choice' . . . Which do you want to give away . . . THIS or THIS?' 'Which pile is most important to you--THIS ONE, or THIS ONE?'

Was just thinking femmefreud . . . it might be a touching and very relational thing . . . to take a morning or a day . . . and insist--i.e. gently not take "no" for an answer, that the woman TEACH YOU HER CRITERIA FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT with the papers or other major piles.

She would likely fuss that it's impossible. Insist that you are not that stupid and that it is possible. That you are willing to learn and she is a good enough teacher. And, that you are willing to let her review your efforts at sorting according to her criteria.

I'm skeptical that she would cooperate but it would be worth persistently pressing her on. At some level, it would also signal that her rationalization [no time to sort] is not always going to be secure and the brick wall she intends it to be.

Another comment on the 'heavy handed' methods . . . NOTHING will be more heavy handed than the authorities having no choice but to condemn her house and move her out of it.


[edit on 15/11/2009 by BO XIAN]

reply to post by BO XIAN


I've had another thought in respect of the magazines and newspapers. So much stuff is available online now I wonder if she could be persuaded to get a computer - (I know, more stuff ) where she could browse away to her heart's content and not have to worry about losing important information should she give the papers away.

I own hundreds of books and I've been giving serious thought to giving more away since I can access so much information on the internet.

reply to post by berenike


Rats. 2nd zapped post. I like Win7 but that and the new mouse are somewhat tricky still.

I had a long post . . . basically the net would not provide the tangible warm fuzzy visual piles of stuff security blanket/comfort her hoard of stuff gives her.

femmefreud, if you want an idea for a party/group thing in response to her being late--a la treating her arrival somewhat akin to the arrival of teh Queen of England . . . let me know. It could have a constructive impact if done authentically.

What are the ages of her kids?

reply to post by BO XIAN


she has a 21 year old son he is in the navy. A daughter 19 who recently moved back home , She is the total opposite , The clutter drives her crazy she trys whenever she s home she will work on some thing, When she first came back she managed to get the dining room table cleared and the kitch counters , and as i said in a earlier post she went thru and consolidated food and weeded out unused or double items and had them ready to give away and she also filled 2 trash bags with stuff and immedietly took them to the dumpster, Well my friend was right on that she asked me to get it out of the trash and take it home with me so she could make sure it was o ok to go,needless to say just today the daughter and I mentioned the dining room table its filled back up again, I mean you couldnt find a place on It to set a cup of coffee, I dont know if i mentioned Cleaning products and health and beauty stuff , its nuts. If i need something i go there walmart doesnt have nothin on her. lol She will give me whatever i need. if she has it. the youngest is 14 , Smart and beautiful . Principals honor role , every year. shes in her first year of high school. just brought home straight A S, She is very straight forward especially with her mom, She gets a little snotty and i understand it, but at the same time it is her mother and she should not speak to her that way,, But she gets irritated when she late or cant find papers that are needed ETC.. and she doesnt bring any body home for dinner. Now the real scary part, is some times in looking in her room it seems she may have a hoarding problem, but its to soon to tell, but ive got one eye on her too. so thats it, no man in her life, there was one for 10 or 11 years. but theve been part now about 2, It wasnt as bad when he was there, but only because he wouldnt allow it.. so thanks againfor taking the time to care..

[edit on 16-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply to post by berenike


she has , i think 5 computers, and a laptop. 1 of them is here at my house, she doesnt have internet though, and boy u should see her waste time on a pc. , she reads every little ad everything ,clicks on everything downlads everything, her pc i also packed ,with images etc etc but good idea dear, ty for the reply

reply to post by femmefreud


QUICK response until maybe tomorrow evening.

GREAT . . . kids in her home and life makes it a lot less scary than I was thinking it might be. It's still plenty deadly serious as you know. But at least there's someone else in the home preventing it from getting absolutely over the cliff.

The 14 year old might well bear some watching. What does Son in Navy say about the hoarding?

It may well be that a slower, less heavy-handed way would be best and more possible if they are around and willing to cooperate. I'd probably dig out 10-15 high quality articles from the net on the disorder. I'd share copies with all but the 14 year old. I might ask Older Sis and mom about sharing one or two or 3 with the 14 year old.

After sharing the articles with Bro and Older daughter, I might schedule 2-3 sessions; lunches, something pleasant in setting . . . to read and discuss the 3 best articles with Mom. It would be great if Son, Older Daughter and her closest friends could all be in a room and say--THIS IS TRUE. THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE. We love you too much to ignore it any longer.


Anyway--heading to bed. Caring is a major theme of my life. You are welcome.

God be with you all.

What does Son in Navy say about the hoarding?

reply to post by BO XIAN


Its funny you ask, when he was on his last leave he like always splits his time between the 2 parents. He sleeps on the couch while there, she has a 2 bedroom, Well i had given him a ride home he is friends with my son and had spent the night at my house, She was in her room when we got there i remember she looked awful, just tired and drawn, anyway i went into to talk to her. A few minutes later he came to the door which she keeps closed to try and keep the cats out of her room. WHEN I OPENED THE DOOR FOR HIM, i WILL NEVER FORGET THE LOOK IN HIS FACE WHEN HE SEEN HER BED, iT IMMEDIETALY STRUCK ME FUNNY , I ABOUT PEED MY PANTS, IT GOT HIM GOING TOO, AND HE KEPT JUST POINTING AT IT IN DISMAY AND LAUGHING . she kept asking what was so funny but we couldnt anwser for the laughter and i think neither of us knew at first how she would react. if we told her But the look was priceless, at that time the array of things in the pile were just weird, i remember she had this 3 ft tall stuffed tin man from the wizard of oz, it was at the top of the pile., But after that was over it hit us OMG with him on the couch and the bed like that, where has she been sleeping. Well in her car, sitting up in a dining room chair in her bedroom the only one vacant, squished om the floor in a little open area at the end of her bed, you cannot get to either side of her bed . so that explained why she was so haggard. Sad isnt it, Later he asked me what was all that stuff. I just said i think its stuffshe s taking to storage. he just shook his head.
that sounds like a good way to approach this , i like that , we could all go to lunch and bring it up.and each of us say our piece with kind and caring words , if she would just say ok and let us get some boxes and get started. i think she has to know she can trust us, she doesnt seem to trust anyone with the task.
[edit on 16-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 16-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 16-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply to post by femmefreud



See if she would be willing to see a behavioral health specialist. Dont force the issue but I would definately recommend some professional help. It does sound like she has some OCD traits, but without an evaluation by a professional I wouldnt jump the gun and diagnose her as of yet. Who knows, maybe depression could be playing a part in this puzzle. Just my two cents.

reply to post by brainranger


Thank you for The post, im as we speak looking over behavioral counselrs and so on, finding one is easy ,its getting her there thats hard

reply to post by brainranger


Thank you for The post, im as we speak looking over behavioral counselrs and so on, finding one is easy ,its getting her there thats hard SORRY DOUBLE POST

[edit on 16-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply to post by femmefreud


I wish you and your friend the best! Take it easy!

I wish you and your friend the best! Take it easy!

reply to post by brainranger


Thank you hon....

One of the wealthiest and best educated persons I have ever known was exactly this way.
Her house had trails between the once worn then thrown into a pile clothing, fast food containers, shoes, computers and what have you.
When her house was no longer livable due to too much stuff, she'd leave everything in the place and sell it and buy another.
She had a yacht and it was the same way, she gave it to me when she moved away from the west coast, I cleaned it up and enjoyed it for a few years before selling it (I like smaller fast boats) I bought a 45 foot Skater with the profit and still had enough left to pay off my mortgage...she wasn't stingy.
She had been abandoned as a child, but inherited a very large legacy.
I went to see her in her new home in Aspen a year or so ago, and was horrified at what I saw.
She had to weigh 600 pounds and was bedridden.
She said after she hired a maid to keep the house nice she couldn't stop eating.
It made me think that if she'd just kept piling stuff up she'd still be the beautiful 120lb redhead who had won my heart.
I enjoyed our visit as much as possible, she smelled bad, and could hardly speak without straining to breath.
She died a few months later, she left me the Aspen place and more money than I really needed to be comfortable.
I cried like a baby, the "if only's" still haunt me.
She definitley had security issues.
I wish I'd known how to urge her to seek help, she was a beautiful person who didn't deserve to die as a bloated thing that was almost no longer recognizable as herself.
Now I have tears again, remembering is hard.
Urge you'r friend to seek help.
Please.

I didn't read but the first 10 post or so but I know how hard it can be to make someone see from a different perspective and change themselves, but maybe that isn't necessary, maybe she just needs more room to store her junk. Her organization has gotten so out of control that she feels helpless to bring it under control herself.

reply to post by femmefreud

...another thing is like when doing laundry it takes her hours to do maybe 4 loads , she methodically looks at every garment and shakes it out and lets the washer fill exactly half way and then adds soap, she does this at laundramat. she takes all this time wirh them and then they never make it out of the baskets or bags once home...

I know you mean well - at least I think you do. Forgive me for suggesting that maybe it's you that has a problem.

think about it

I can see you have lots of support - but to this (and much of it above) I can only reply - so?

so what if she does things too slowly for you?

so what if she doesn't handle things the way you think they should be handled?

if she asks you for help, help her - by all means - if she really is in trouble she'll let you know

and yes - maybe she does have a "problem" - it's entirely possible

however, sometimes a problem is determined by the standards of other people - doesn't make it a real problem

your description of your friend also describes several people I know or have known - each one of them brilliant in their own way - and busy creating or working on other things

one was an inventor/engineer - another a lawyer/writer - a programmer, one mathematician - several others are artists...

two of them were married to each other - both freaking geniuses - their house a maze of art, art supplies, books and musical instruments...the basement we referred to as the catacombs :-)

my father was a painter - he built furniture and walls out of discarded canvases

by the standards of Better Homes and Gardens - or Martha Stewart - I'm sure each of them would be judged and filed away under crazy

frankly - I'm not sure Einsteins house wouldn't have been a disorderly mess if he hadn't had a wife. That probably applies to many, many famous people throughout history

you see?

...You know her house is not flithy her kitchen and bath always very clean, like appliances and sink and stuff clean linens and towells. dishes done but , clutter stacks of stuff on floor dining table . cupbards are full. but strangely enough it is somewhat organized i suppose...

this tells me everything I need to know

I've known a few clean freaks in my day - seems like maybe they could be said to have a problem too - it just seems to be a problem that's easier to tolerate

sometimes it seems that we live in a very judge-y society - don't we?

her mess and her slowness - the fact that she doesn't care is maybe what bothers you. If she seems sensitive - it may just be that she's sensitive to your over attention and possible prodding

again - I assume you mean well - but you should consider that not everyone sees things the same way - not everyone lives the same way

clutter is something I understand only too well - by the way

I consider my clutter to be an actual art form

:-)



[edit on 11/16/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Sorry . . . sort of . . . to disagree.

However, as much as I like being a bird of rare plumage myself . . . and as much as I like folks enjoying a maximum amount of freedom, free will and their own . . . constructions on reality . . .

the friend is well over the line. There IS a clinical problem that requires serious intervention before it gets horrifically worse.

The symptoms are many and quite clear.

reply to post by BO XIAN

Sorry . . . sort of . . . to disagree.

:-) I'm not sorry to disagree - at all

not sure what your credentials are - Dr. BO - but none of us is really in a position to diagnose this woman - if you see what I mean?

this friend - well meaning as she/he may be - is not in a real position to diagnose either - only judge - and all we have to go on is their perception of "the problem"

we live in a time of "disorders" it seems - and somehow these days, anyone who doesn't fit the norm (and that word norm is key) is judged to be disordered - by people who haven't really a clue what normal is supposed to be - not even professionals much of the time

there are trends in psychiatry and psychology - just like everything else

we all subscribe to Psychology Today, watch a few episodes of Oprah or Dr. Phil - and now any one who doesn't keep their house a certain way has mental health issues?

I think people should be judged by how well they function within their own environment

the friend is well over the line. There IS a clinical problem that requires serious intervention before it gets horrifically worse.

a clinical problem? :-)

maybe - maybe not - I would be very interested to hear from the woman herself - but none of us will have that opportunity

The symptoms are many and quite clear.

her symptoms are way too much stuff - all over the place - in what appears to be chaos to the OP - but that's just what it looks like to the OP

and her children?

also, she doesn't do things or get to things fast enough - however one is to determine that - I don't know

as I mentioned above - she just described many of the people I know, respect and love

the OP also recognizes that there is a certain level of organization - and no filth

it's possible that this woman is in over her head - is miserable - needs help

but from what I've read so far - the OP only supposes she would appreciate the help

However, as much as I like being a bird of rare plumage myself . . . and as much as I like folks enjoying a maximum amount of freedom, free will and their own . . . constructions on reality . . .

she should still keep her things a certain way?

:-)