Psychological Question, page 1

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Topic started on 14-11-2009 @ 08:20 PM by femmefreud

Any body out there have knowledge wether it be from actual school studies or life lessons, I have a friend a dear one, we have been friends for ae least 15 years and aquaintences even longer, She is a great and giving person, laid back as can be,maybe too much sometimes, Im thinking maybe it all has to do with the whole lft brain rht brain thing, Here is somethings i cant figure. there are many more to come. She is always late too everything even when given ample time ,she never gets anything finished. She says i do things to fast, I say shes too slow. Her house is a cluttered mess i mean piles everywhere on her bed the furniture, just a path to the rooms she has a million sops ahampoos.etc. and clothes, Oh my... bag after bag and pile after pile.now mind you the clothes are clean she has 3 storages can barely get her car in her garage cant sleep on her bed too much stuff , but wont stop buying or excepting things and talk about nicknacks, she has so much, Now i love her and she knows how i feel about this, always has ,she wont let anyone help her cuz she scared we will throw something away she might need . I could whip through and get it done but no she has to go through every little thing, so nothing gets completed. what kind of thinking is this and change oh no she doesnt like change. thanks all.

MOD EDIT: edit to correct spelling in thread title.

[edit on 11/15/2009 by benevolent tyrant]

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 09:01 PM by elaine

Hoarding is a mental disorder. I think it's caused by insecurity or fear.

You going through and throwing things away won't help her. She needs to decide to make a change for herself and to figure out the real reason for her hoarding behavior. Until then she will continue the way she is.

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 09:05 PM by UmbraSumus

reply to post by femmefreud

Does she have a lot of cats ?

just kidding !

--------------------------------------------------

I think that particular compulsion is rooted in a fear of making mistakes .
The fear of throwing something out that may prove useful at some later date.

Things must be done right , and not rushed ....... hence all the loose ends .

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 09:17 PM by kyred

My sweet wife is like this. Never turns down anything that could possibly be of use. Stuff everywhere. lol. Now, me? I have a place on my computer desk where I put papers. Papers I haven't decided if I need or not, but will go through sometime. And I do that, Not as quickly as my dear wife would like me to. So sometimes she just throws papers away, without looking at them. I know where in the stack that something is. And I can find it easily. However, the rest of the house is filled with stuff. Her stuff and I better sure not touch it.

Years ago we had a huge closet full of boxes full of stuff. I suggested we just take the boxes and throw them and their contents way without even looking at them. Why not? We obviously were getting along fine without all that stuff. No, she said.
Later our house burned down. All lost. And the result? Life went on. We got along without whatever all that stuff was.

What causes people to collect things and keep things that seemingly have no value? I have no idea. But if the person collecting isn't hurting anyone, why worry about it?

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 10:35 PM by femmefreud

reply to post by kyred

Nice story thank you, I see what you mean about the why worry, well because i know it bothers her too, so much clutter clutters the mind, She is overwhelmed and really cant do it alone. I would never throw anything away without asking her ,i assured her of this. but the thing is she wont get rid of it. I mean cans of old keys a bag of used shoelaces, clothes that her kids outgrew long ago. she has food that is outdated because she buys too much, see i think she may be a little worse than your wife , i love her to death, i know it would ease her mind to have it cleared away some what., i have helped her before but its never been this bad. sp maybe if i could get some help on how to approach this different so she will get motivated. and let stuff go.

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 10:38 PM by femmefreud

reply to post by elaine

I always thught insecurity had alot to do with it too. Thanks for the reply

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 10:52 PM by femmefreud

another thing is like when doing laundry it takes her hours to do maybe 4 loads , she methodically looks at every garment and shakes it out and lets the washer fill exactly half way and then adds soap, she does this at laundramat. she takes all this time wirh them and then they never make it out of the baskets or bags once home, she sometimes will spend hours cleaning her driveway and the sidewalks or her car, but the house is a mess. , I think maybe obsessive compulsive disorder. she starts things all the time but gets to detailed to finish. it took her months to paint her bathroom, it had to be sanded again and again and everything perfect so much so it was really never finished baseboards still off and things like that. Its just not healthy. i worry is all, and hoped for a nuetral opinion or a similar situation. Hoarding is the right term i believe.

[edit on 14-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 10:53 PM by Melissa101

reply to post by femmefreud

Hoarding. That is what she is doing and like stated above it is a disorder that she needs to get professional help for. It is like an addiction or co dependancy. The disease gets progresivly worse not better without treatment. If she has children DCS can come in and take them from her for having an unfit home. Clutter causes a place for mice and bugs to hide and reproduce also it can cause a fire hazard and depending on how bad it is even dangerous molds can grow in the mess. If she does not have children they authorities can still come in and condem her house if it gets bad enough and with out help it will. I am not sure you can help her other than try to talk to her about getting help and what can happen if she does not get it. Good luck...

[edit on 14-11-2009 by Melissa101]

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 10:58 PM by Melissa101

reply to post by femmefreud

HUM... That does sound like OCD but it is unusual for someone to have hoarding and OCD, I think. I could be wrong, she may have OCD about sertain things like the car and driveway but not her home. Usualy people with OCD want a spotless very in order home but I know someone who has OCD about washing her hands but her house is a mess so I guess it is possible. Either way she needs professional help so she can have a "normal" life free of hoarding.

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 11:00 PM by femmefreud

reply to post by Melissa101

Thats a good point. I will bring that up and hopefully it will scare her enough to change, You know her house is not flithy her kitchen and bath always very clean, like appliances and sink and stuff clean linens and towells. dishes done but , clutter stacks of stuff on floor dining table . cupbards are full. but strangely enough it is somewhat organized i suppose. but still a defenite hazard, i will surely bring this up Thanks

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 11:05 PM by femmefreud

Thats my point too its not just hoarding its OCD too , She is always late no matter what or how important it is , she will say i gotta go gotta go , but will dilly dally along , and she will darn near pack a overnight bag just to come over for dinner, and her purse has 4 of everything in it. I tell her just come get your purse and leave , but no she has this and that she might need . You know i love her to death she is a dying breed , when it comes to being a good and kind human being, and a great friend.
She keeps newspapers and jars and grocery bags and she has trash bag after trash bag of used trash bags,and magazines and enough videos and cds and dvds to open a store. she is financially suffering too. Well if nothing else i guess i feel better just getting this out, and appreciate any and all input Thanks all.
[edit on 14-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 14-11-2009 by femmefreud]

[edit on 14-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 11:22 PM by femmefreud

Does she have a lot of cats ?

reply to post by UmbraSumus

OMG, I wasnt gonna mention that , Ill say she does every ferrel cat around she feeds and too many of her own. why do you ask.. LOL I didnt see this first time around lol

[edit on 14-11-2009 by femmefreud]

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 11:30 PM by ladyinwaiting

reply to post by femmefreud

Hm, yes I am familiar with this, and it is called hoarding, but it sounds like she may be developing some compulsions and other issues as well.
This is not going to get better without some type intervention. If she has family, might need to give then a call. Something's wrong.

As someone else said, "why worry"; she's not harming anyone or herself.
But, but..this is not going to get any better and will probably get worse, and then it will be a problem. Another poster pointed out some of the potential problems and she was exactly right. It can lead to all kinds of difficulties. Some very complicated. Your task can be that of convincing her there is a problem. If you can get her to admit a problem exists or is developing, this is a good first step. If she believes and trusts you, she might even let you help her start getting rid of some things. That would be fantastic, and simple compared to what could lie ahead for her if these behaviors are not gotten under control.

Good luck. I know it can be kinda "touchy".

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 11:41 PM by femmefreud

reply to post by UmbraSumus

umbrasumus, that link is great you sent, Its her through and through , perfectionionism, procrastination, indecisiveness. all the things i listed she saves are listed . You know her mother also is like this but not near as bad it says its genetic too. it states that yes they fear they will make a wrong decision and throw out something useful. so true ,her daughter threw somethings out and i found her digging to see if it was useful. do you think letting her read this will help ? or not ?

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 11:43 PM by femmefreud

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

Good luck. I know it can be kinda "touchy".

Thank you very much. I will try and keep everyone posted ,

reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 12:34 AM by UmbraSumus

Originally posted by femmefreud
do you think letting her read this will help ? or not ?

It could be a start . From the little i have read about the condition it can be difficult to treat . Getting her to acknowledge there is a problem in the first place, could be the first hurdle to clear.

The collection of cats imho could prove the greatest health risk , newspapers and clothing are one thing, faeces another altogether.

Renting a skip and dumping everything whilst she is at work should probably be avoided also ..

If she parts with all that clutter, it will have to be her decision.

It sounds like she has a good friend to help her through this .

Again , this is just my humble opinion expressed above . You should really read up on the subject before you broach the subject with her,so that you can answer any questions she may have, or give her directions to the answers .

reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 01:19 AM by femmefreud

reply to post by UmbraSumus

Thanks so much, reading that enlightened me so much, And i have something to show her and prove that its a problem and its not normal. But they say its hard to treat. so i will do my best, And thanks again my friend.

reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 01:19 AM by femmefreud

reply to post by UmbraSumus

reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 01:42 AM by notreallyalive

I've heard of hoarding a few times in my studies; I'm a grad student in Transpersonal Psyc.

Hoarding can be a presenting problem in OCD (as mentioned above) and also a byproduct of Depression.

I assume you're just trying to help and understand your friend and that's great. On the other hand, trying to diagnose someone yourself without training is dangerous and can actually hurt them far more than help them.

Please consider a few things before getting into a conversation with her. How long has she been this way? Does she show other signs of depression. Is she unhappy with her current state of clutter?

I hope she gets help in some form.

reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 02:21 AM by BO XIAN

reply to post by femmefreud

You can search the net on hoarding/pack-rat-ism.

It's a serious disorder.

REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDER and/or perfectionism on the part of parents are undoubtedly big factors.

I doubt serious studies and articles would influence her. This is deeply ingrained. I have a friend like that. There has been slight progress in 4 years. She does not . . . have breaks with reason near as often and has stopped buying so compulsively.

A spider in her bedroom freaked her out and she went on a cleaning binge. It was aborted about 20% into it for 'other priorities.' Though she spends countless hours on the net. She did a similar cleaning binge to about 30-40% of what was needed in the spare bedroom now hard to enter because of mostly her stuff.

I have insisted on no stuff in the hallway across from the washer and dryer. Has been very difficult to get that to stick but I'm not caving in.

She had serious emotional abuse all her growing up. She was convinced her Dad deliberately with great meanness and forethought set out to abuse her emotionally for sick jollies every day of her life.

His perspective is that she was so full of herself he had to ride her sternly to enable her to be tolerable for others to be around.

I'm sure there's plenty of truth to both . . . and their personalities are, of course, near identical.

So, she had plenty of ATTACHMENT DISORDER. And there was plenty of perfectionism as well.

Anyway--reading up on hoarding/packratism on the net should give you a lot of other details about the disorder.

Incremental shaping behaviors with BEHAVIOR MOD CAN have some impact IF you have a LOT of contact

AND IF she really values your relationship.

You could start with the chair you normally sit in when visiting. You could one day insist that say an 8.5 X 11" space to the right of that chair not have anything put there when you come to visit. If you walk in the next time and something is there, walk out.

Trouble is, her compulsions are so intense . . . that might be too big a jump. You might have to start with decreasing the height of the stack in that space slowly down to nothing.

Therapy could help but I doubt she'd go.

Taking every visit about qualities in her personality that you like and why . . . could slowly help some. But we're talking about 800-1,500 repetitions of affirming comments very congruent and sincere and honest . . . before they would begin to scratch the surface of her worthlessness, anxieties, etc.

I'm sure some psychiatrists would talk medication but that's not my bias.

I think cognitive behavioral therapy is far better but that's a LOT of work. I'm skeptical she'd be up to 5% of the work required.

She'd have to want to change a lot and she doesn't want to change any.

The malady is somewhat life threatening . . . on cleanliness basis. And some such folks have been discovered buried under piles of stuff that fell over on them . . . months later. Not a pretty thing to find.

It would be interesting to collect such stories and share them with her. She'll deny it has anything to do with her but it would be interesting to see just how thick her denial is.

One could arrange with a therapist and any other friends and relatives she has to have a FAMILY INTERVENTION a la an alcoholic. But I'm skeptical how impactful it would be.

I don't know what she'd do if her family et al threatened to get her declared incompetent and force her to live in a half-way house TOTALLY LOSING HER HOARD. That would be a very interesting dilema for her.

She's likely not such an obvious danger to herself at this point. When she's 70-90 years old still that way--she'd be plenty danger to herself. And the fire hazard is probably already significant as is likely the health hazard.

How does she feel about pets? She probably doesn't have any.

I doubt she has many friends. Are you the only one close to her?

It would be very tricky then to use your relationship. She'd still have a lot of compulsion to put her hoard first regardless of you being her only friend. You wouldn't have much leverage. But shaping behavior involves very tiny steps . . . like teaching a pigeon to play ping pong.

It would be interesting to bring her some favorite food or some such each visit. And insist that she has to 'buy' the food by giving you some at least 12" pile of paper junk that she hasn't touched in over 6 months.

AT first, I'd probably just walk out with it when I left. After a few times succeeding with that, I'd bring a trash can with me and tear it all into bits in front of her. If fruit was her favorite, I'd give her some pieces of fruit after every handful torn to bits.

I might also feed her paranoia/fears a bit by talking about the stories of piles falling in on spinster old ladies and killing them.

If she was afraid of spiders or mice . . . I might experiment with tweaking her with such 'sightings' of such critters running between and behind piles. But all that would be VERY tricky and would likely have to be done in an obviously playful satirical way. But even spoofs like that would likely wind up her paranoia a bit.

That could be counter productive in that more paranoia and anxiety so easily translates into more hoarding. However, if she's near her max already, that could be a problem for her that might begin to force some loosening of her death grip on the junk.

Sounds mostly like a MISSION IMPOSSIBLE, to me.

I know from my housemate that some change is possible with diagnoses that my profs etc. would have insisted would never change in the slightest in a better direction and could only get worse.

But it's very slow--maddeningly slow. And one has to have some capacity to make them offers they can't refuse. I doubt you have such leverage.

But you could experiment with whatever leverage you have and see if you could trigger even the slightest movement toward health.

Water wears away granite. Could be better than arriving some day and finding her dead under big piles of chaos.

Anyway--this psychologist's 2 cents of armchair distant shrinking.

[edit on 15/11/2009 by BO XIAN]

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