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10 Ways Darwin got it wrong - The Conspiracy of Evolution

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posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 08:06 PM
reply to post by NatureBoy

Well put and quite the post!
Um, interesting you mention that!
I just watched and posted the "empire of the city" movie
on another thread.
It talks about how the church is deeply involved with the wealthiest people.
Really explained alot and tied alot of these loose ends together.
Only a few powerful families control the world.....

It's too bad a good thing is used for bad instead!
Like pretty much everything is anymore.
Its all about more and bigger.

Anyway, we are all obligated to help others I feel.
I think as I have said before, people get spirituality
and religion all mixed up.
Your spirituality is a gift directly.
It allows direct communication. The rest is up to you.
Some people must not understand that religions are only a gateway.
They will continually follow a jim jones type or someone like that!
You would think we would all recognize the signs by now.

Religions are a middleman, thats why they make all the money!

The rich get righer off the poor and the poor get poorer off the rich.
Oldest play in the book. Why this is not understood more is beyond me.

Drive down your street, what are the biggest buildings in your town?
In mine they are the banks and the churches.
If that doesnt tell ya who runs the town, I dont know what could.
They are run by people with human nature, usually.

These people will be tempted to steal and cheat a bit sooner or later.
Pretty soon they need more and bigger everything. Its a vicious cycle.

You are atheist then? You believe in a devil but not God?
I dont think anyone with a conscience could just shrug people off.
Regardless of which church you go to or not.
I appreciate your feelings here! You sound like a moral person.
Kind, considerate and actually fairly loving.

A spiritual person would feel the same way down to his bones also.
Why not appreciate the sameness and not the different-ness?
Why does the journey matter so much but not the ultimate end?
We are here but for a short time. Why not make the best of it.

You sound like a nice person and I am sure would agree to this anyway. I hope. That we can celebrate our sameness not our differences? Cheers!
As to the rest of the post:
"Religious people"have a higher standard to live up to for sure....

And watch those wizards and be sure to check the label on the
essential oils. Wouldn't want to mix those up!

Star for you! Thanks friend NB!

Oh ya, I didnt quite get that first line....thanks!

[edit on 15-11-2009 by dodadoom]

posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 08:39 PM
reply to post by dodadoom

actually i think we believe exactly the same thing...

i believe in universal truth as described by plato, that all things have a higher immortal form - a chair he said is made by a man, before he made it was the idea he had of the chair he wanted to make before that was the #idea# of a chair, which has always existed - if only as a metaphorical form, something that can stand and sit must be able to have something shaped for sitting, this is a chair.

Well the spiritual realm is exactly this, the world in which our dreams exist!

I believe that we were once a collection or reaction acids, then simple life, then animals able to want and hunger, then we became thinking beings - soon we will become rational beings, buddah talks of this as enlightenment or a step towards it, persoanlly i dont think he really knew what he was really saying, anyway we are starting to reach beyond our biology - our minds are breaking this barrier, doors of perception by huxley (aldous not his evolutionary scientist brother who we should be talking about in this thread) takes about this - we are entering the higher realm - a world in which truth is pure and reason is sublime.

It's pretty much only faith and belligerence which is standing in the way of this wonderful new dawn for humanity, i would say many people are are able to understand this world to some degree, able to bath in it and soak up its magnificence - i'm sure you in some way are one of them, i also think jesus or a collection of people who became the jesus myth also saw into this world - they weren't able to understand it fully, having not the two thousand years of moral, theological and philosophic history they helped inspire to guide them.... Leonardo DeVinchi, Plato, Mohammad, Buddah, Camu, etc, etc i think they all peered into this vapid void.

However they couldn't get their head around it, by no means am i saying that i can - i'm learning and hopefully not making as many of the mistakes others have made, Carlos Castaneda has been a great spirit guide in this (The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge - just remember its fiction) but still i. all of us, have far to go.

I think cuban president fidel castro said it best "it is education, or rather tenacious self education, which turns a small animal into a man."

Indeed by learning to face the world honestly, by learning to see things for what they are - then finally we might be able to comprehend the true beauty of our existence.

oh and edit to add, i'm going to go to bed watching empire of the city now, thx and nite. good speaking to you, some of the others in this thread.... not so much.

oh and i was supposed to point out that an athiest is someone who does not believe in the theist god (or the confusing concept of a devil), i don't think it's possible for the god of the bible to exist, or any form of creator god (who created the creator? who does god prey too? either god need a moral guardian, a leader and father or i don't either - more importantly to me if god is all things then he is both sides of every coin, to be all things is impossible if you plan doing anything - if god can't do anything then i'm not going to bother preying to him and i'm certainly not going to try to please him, the idea of a god is a dead end -it's just easier than taking responsibility for your actions.

Every act i ever do will be my responsibility, every single one - i can tell you now that no one will ever make me do anything which i have a serious moral objection too - no threats of eternal damnation, no promise of heaven, no edicts from unborn zombie carpenters, no old words from weirdos of the mountain - i am the ONLY person who makes moral choices in which I participate. with that i will do my best to ensure no one suffers because of me - if i ever get to heaven and some all mighty looks me up and down, says 'well you never hurt anyone, tried to do your bit to help people, enjoyed your time on the earth and never let anyone lead you into wrongdoing - however you forgot to prey every day and you didn't have a priest speak Latin over your dead copse' then i would happily walk into the fire pits of hell myself! Eternal torture would be better than submitting to the whims of such an evil god - personally i think that the believers have more to fear than us atheists if by some insane weirdness heaven and hell were to turn out to be more than mear flights of bronzeage fancy...

[edit on 15-11-2009 by NatureBoy]

[edit on 15-11-2009 by NatureBoy]

posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Angus123

Your claims belie your motives and you know it.
You don't need to go to church. You're pushing an angle and it's obvious.

My claims? Gee I haven't offered any have I? I am pushing no angle unless you are? You seem to have the ANGLE that questioning evolution can only be done if you already agree to it, already assume its true and above all NOT if you have any affinity for a designer or creator.

That about sum it up mind reader?

posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:19 PM

Originally posted by Pauligirl

By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

Answers in Genesis Statement of Faith

And if God is real, then that statement is true. Many believe he is and their is as much evidence to suggest that possibility and want to explore what is possible about knowing more through science. A worldview that is ANTI God, hates God etc, would like nothing more than speculating on what was is our common ancestor. Who cares? I mean really what is so freakin fantastic about coming from a common ancestor of a monkey?

What if we DID? Now what? It still explains nothing more than the process but doesn't explain the BIG question and certainly doesn't refute a deity. Unless of course you insist, in which case my suspicions have been right all along. I really don't care how a God being would make us but when I look at life I never see transmutation going on I just see man evolving into man and until they can come up with that discrepancy all apes having a two more chomosomes while such a little thing like that makes such a vast difference to the point the only thing humans have in common with monkey's is,,,, well,, atheist's

posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:40 PM

Originally posted by NatureBoy
i dare you, try to rationalize why god the person who created all life we are supposed to believe, he that can do anything and knows all - why would he demand i kill my entire family? oh because they wanted me to follow another religon? sure sounds fine, freedom of religion is after all a terrible thing - religion tolerance is abhorred by god.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by NatureBoy]

I don't think God really cared about anyones religion do you? I mean what religion was he?

[edit on 16-11-2009 by Kerry_Knight]

posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 11:51 PM
reply to post by NatureBoy

Very nice post again! Much respect to you,
your humbleness is appreciated and refreshing also.
Your post is insightfull and in depth!
I just wish I felt like I could respond properly.
I will try to do my best.

I don't think we believe exactly the same thing unfortunately.
I wish I felt that way. And I admire your pov regardless.
That being said I think the only difference is what he has
proven to me directly in my personal life.
I would like to be smug and say I wished for it and therfore I willed
things to me, but how could I have known what I needed before I
ever needed it? We're talking big and small things here...

How can I know what I will be like in the future? How I will react.
What I will need?
How can one person know the future by himself?
How many know the big questions?
How many receive the answers to their big questions? Routinely?

Everything I have ever wanted has been given to me, and then some.
True I didnt get my million dollars but I got something far better.
A richness and peace of the soul that no amount of money can buy.
I look at 'riches' far differently now! I dont need the million.
(NDE's are very interesting btw)!

There's no way I can see the future to know whats best for me.
It is not set in stone anyway yet.
Its actually spooky how real it all is to me.
I made the decision long long ago to let him decide whats best for me.
Now mind you, I am very critical and hard to please, but he has never
ever let me down.

At first I kinda did it for a test just to see if it worked.
Some of the things he did for me was just crazy stuff!
I was not only convinced, I was amazed!
The more I opened myself up, the more was revealed and proven.
Strictly personal stuff here mind you.

Granted sometimes he has pissed me off, but it was always something
I got myself into in the first place and I failed myself in the process.
Just mad at myself is all and was not big enough to admit it.
I still struggle with my place in life even though I know exactly where it is.
I never feel cheated, just sometimes a longing for something different.
This is normal and human. About a second later I think, ya that'll work!

Thats what you need!
Then I snap out of it.
And then I say a thanks because I really dont need that...
and would I really want it if I really had it? Doubtfull.

He knows me and takes care of me better than I can!
And I've had a lotta practice! I'm high maintenence!

If that is called being a slave, so be it.
I think it is a privilege to have him in my life actually.
He has saved my life directly many times also,
but that is another story.
He saves it everyday, trust me on this...
we could all go at anytime. Be glad you are here.
We only have oh about 80 years or so.....

Honestly if I had not gone through any of this,
I could then say we are exactly the same.
I know this probably doesnt happen from alot of the posts here,
and I feel all the more blessed. And no not "special"!

I know I'm just opening myself up to ridicule again,
but I just wanted you to know why I feel like I do about this.
I dont care an awfull lot about these fun little theories.
All I know is what I have directly experienced in my life.
I just wish I could describe it better.

This is extremely personal and hard to talk about.
And no I wont move to tibet and become a monk!


If you knew me you would see I'm just a normal down to earth guy.
There is more I want to comment on but it's getting late.
I gotta get to bed and this is turning into a book.
Hey maybe I ought to write one and call it the Theory of Dodadoom!

Night and thanks! Big Star!

Peace and love and all that jazz everyone!

[edit on 16-11-2009 by dodadoom]

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 04:05 AM
This thread shows that evolutionists cling to their unproven theory as much as religious people cling to their ridiculous religions.

We don't know much at all about life and where it came from, accept that and move on.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 06:24 AM
reply to post by griftin

But that would leave it unknown and unknown is bad.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 06:40 AM

Originally posted by FAQAmerica

#8 His theory of human beings evolving from apes.

I stopped reading after that... you obviously don't know anything about the Theory of Evolution.

Don't create false statements and then attempt to debunk them... try debunking what the theory ACTUALLY states.

No it is YOU who doesn't understand science, their is just as much if not more evidence to suggest they were designed just the way they are and the theory you are telling him he has to debunk is the same one evolution has not proven assumes.

Their is nothing to suggest we evolvedffrom their common ancestor and like the evolutionist who insist's ID'ists have to prove who the designer is, I think it's only fair evolutionists prove who or what the ancestor is. Even Dawkins best answer to that one is " The ancestor is the same ancestor to modern apes" Yeah Dick, WHAT IS IT? "Well we don't know"

Then we got slick posting to the member named the watcher asking questions like who created God. Cute, isn't it? He assumes we HAVE a created God moreover, he asks this question NOT as a method of finding out the answer but to undermine the believer in such a concept or shatter their faith using kid games.

you pose a problem on where God comes from. But over-look the same problem of where matter. laws, etc... came from or how life began screaming, EVOLUTION isn't ABOUT abiogenis!.

If it is questions on cosmology, we get more largely untestable theory Coming up with excuses like "singularities" which is tantamount to a Christian saying God did it.

That is why things need to be testable and repeatable. It could happen does not mean that it did happen.

Claims like they know what started the Big Bang or "rips in the spacetime continuum" and a Christian saying "God did it" are metaphysically equivocal.

There are essentially two worldviews, The one saying "Isn't it amazing that the universe is perfectly suited for us to survive in".

Or "Isn't it amazing we are perfectly suited to survive in the universe".

Very similar thoughts, but vastly different implications.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 07:54 AM
This is clearly a trolling thread.

The 'problems' listed in the opening post have been posted (in various forms) in many other threads where they have been answered directly, completely, and politely.

In no case that I can find has the poster attempted to debate the rebuttals in anyway shape or form. Instead they purposely and maliciously pick out those threads from impatient and frustrated posters and attack them as non-responsive and assumptive of the original posters belief system as if those frustrated posters are the only ones that are attempting to engage the original poster.

Invariably, the arguments against the original 'problems with evolution' proposition are totally ignored. As they obviously would be, because the 'problems' have been answered over and over and over again on multiple threads and web sites.

The posters purpose is clearly not to deny ignorance or gain answers to their questions. The only purpose seems to be to engage in silly word games about who is making unwarranted assumptions about whose belief system or anything that will keep the argument going.

I have an hypothesis: these threads, which seem to be regenerated on a fairly regular cycle of about a month (research required) are being propagated by a group of people who couldn't care less about the topic, but are engaged in a game, there is probably a bet involved on who can pull the most responses with their tripe. This constitutes a clear conspiracy, don't you think?

An alternate hypothesis: these threads are less than subtle advertisements for the authors that the material is sourced from.

Now that this is in plain view, I wonder how this can be tested? The Heisenberg principle would no doubt apply.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 08:40 AM
reply to post by rnaa

Perhaps. If your "clearly" did not involve an assumptive leap. Effect does not always equal intent.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 09:17 AM
reply to post by dodadoom

Firstly you are wrong, you #are# "special" i can tell - you have the desire and the strength to look at yourself and your position in the world and to understand it so that you can exist more fully and completely in the world, that's something most people either can't or won't do.

That guiding voice you listen to is your own voice, if there is a god then that is the great gift he gave us - the ability to see as god sees, to peer into that invisible void which contains all the universes truth - the world of pure reason. I think maybe because the landscape is so vast and much of scary, even to an Hieronymus Bosh level (who was a great artist and for sure one of the many who became obsessed by the world beyond ours, the world of purity) many people, certainly those of a religious mindset create a spirit guide to help them in this magic world.

It's easy to do up there, where only ideas are real and nothing but truth is true - I myself walk the many hills and vales of imagination hand in hand with many friends, respected foes and inspiring characters - both comic and cosmic. I know that what i'm saying sounds like the ramblings of a mad man, but understand please much of what i'm saying is both true and metaphorical - i am after all talking of the metaphorical world, the highest form of ideas

Secular science in general has a contempt for the spiritual realm, however this is only because it's outside their scope of understanding - a non empirical world (or so it seems to many) is not sciences job, literature and philosophy sometimes dip a finger into metaphysics for sure, often wading deep as their waste, or heart - never allowing their head to go under! It's in our head we have out eyes, only spiritualistic religions and wacky mystics dare to let themselves float freely within the void - but alas even with them when they emerge it's rare they admit the truths they found, rather they would package them and wrap them hiding their universal truths in crazy tales and mythic human dogma.

When the human brain has developed enough understanding of itself and existence a portal to this magical world of logical thought construction opens, a world above language - in the debate about what makes an AI really actually alive i would say the ability to formulate new ideas for itself based on understanding of unrelated concepts, before this point we ourselves are just animals -looking towards the stars when did we first wonder about things no one has ever seen?

Sticking your head into this world suddenly you can see infinity all around you, billions of possible worlds - billions of possible actions - billions of real truths. I've studied in some level most of the main philosophic, theological, mathematic and literary traditions dealing with this subject and i'm having great trouble explaining what i see - how hard must it have been for those early folk able to see yet not yet able to understand? That's why i think they took recourse to religious explanations - a study of Homer's Illiad is very interesting on this, notice that many of those old gods dictate the whims of things today we almost understand, certainly enough to conceptualize as actions of events other than personality of higher level beings - concepts like love, now we see it in complex psychological, biochemical, emotional systems interacting in a very complex way, the poets have poured over every inch of the romantic heart - no we know better than the blame cupids bow. WAR being another complex example, what cases war? some playful gods or the complex geopolitical interplay of events and socioeconomic factors and personality's within the power elite? Of course we wouldn't seriously say that the god of war was mixing up angst between germany and britain in the nineteen thirtys, however it is common to explain the issues by anthropomorphizing the issues 'germany angry at britains imperialist dictates was silently waiting for it's chance to wreak revenge'

Before i said i walk with my friends in this magic world, what did i mean in real terms? simple, i know some people very well indeed - so much so that i can predict how they will react to almost any situation, that means i have made a copy of their 'soul' in my mind - sure it's only a ghost, see through and drifting in and out of being but up there it's real enough... I walk in this world, amid the beauty and the demons - dancing in the fires, singing with the angels - oh to daydream can be magical! Well, when i happen upon some strange rock, a nub of confusing shapes -so logical construct i'm at a loss to explain, then my friends are there to help me out - a clever word, a new perspective... maybe should i wonder into some scary zone, monsters of thought attack me - terrible thoughts attack my mind, then they come running - my spirit guides, ephemeral and incorporeal but real in thought - real enough to banish even the toughest foes (or protect me while i run for cover at least)

I know i can be hard to keep up with, sorry if this isn't making much sense to you - I'm just trying to show how the 'spirit world' also exists to rationalists, atheists, ascetics, logicians and realists - how we can all have 'spirit guides' and how maybe the truest most pure form of this understanding is the most beautiful, maybe, i think it is but beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course.

It makes me sad when people with such great gifts for understanding, compassion and empathy stand right on the cusp of such a beautiful thing as this magic sea yet dare not swim, only daring to listen to the edicts of the spirits within - well i'm saying the waters warm, come in - bring your friends, your protectors and all you wish to party with! Explore the beautiful and exciting world of possibility, everything you find up their is just as valuable down here - freethinking will open many doors on earth as well as in the sky, that's one of the many true truths which religion found - which science found - philosophy found, it's the central truth to almost all great things.

So by all means, travel with your god at your side - with your prophet's and sages wise words, yet remember that it's YOUR journey - your quest, i know you take your close friends on this journey i do, everyone does, and those you respect - often the wise old H.G. Wells will lean in and interrupt "my dear boy....." or Christopher Hitches will burst into indignation and rage at the slightest hint of moral duplicity, Mitchio Kaku upon even the most taxing of tasks "O.K. ......." never flustered, always scientific.

I know i'm not offering anything new, this sea i speak of we all know it well - I just offer a way of seeing it, a secular realistic rationalistic nondeterministic beautiful way of understanding that in this plain we truly are free.

sorry too many words, too much rambling, hope get what i'm saying - peace out.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 09:18 AM
double post


[edit on 16-11-2009 by NatureBoy]

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 09:37 AM
reply to post by NatureBoy

Thank you for the long and well thought out post. It deserves a reply.

Never in the history of the world had religion acted in an entirely moral way…
I don’t like to deal in absolutes. I am sure there are some religions out there that have acted in moral ways. It just isn’t usually Christianity. As for pointing fingers we need to stop blaming everything wrong with the world on someone else. Religions will only be as corrupt as the people that follow it and buy into it. Yes, I have seen the Vatican. It is horrible. At least now-adays we have thing like the internet where everyone can have a voice. There is also way more people. There is a better chance that a leader or activist will stand up against the problems in the world.

As for science…well it hasn’t acted completely moral either. It has done many wrongs in the name of science. Once again however, it was the people who were misguided and not science. It all comes down to us and what we chose. Doesn’t that sound a bit religious to you? Carrying out unspeakable crimes in the name of science/god/your beliefs?

There comes a point when we need to not forget, but forgive the past and move on. Fix things now. We can’t fix then, but we can fix now.

The three religions based on Judaism do cause all sorts of problems. There is no debate within them. It is believe or be damned. That does not mean all religions have been that way. Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism come to mind. The more you look into them the more you see they are founded on intellectual debate. The founders respected one another. That is worth founding a religion on. I would recommend Taoism as a comfortable start for you. It teaches that we are all one, and there are all sorts of debates in its literature. Wei Wu Wei stands out in my memory as a starter. The Tao Te Ching is just to vague and, well, boring in my opinion. Debates are always fun.

Africa has way more issues than AIDS and condoms. The main reason there is issues is the lack of food. There are a lot of parasites on that continent. Did you know you can’t eat any of the major mammals in Africa? There is a parasite nearly everyone of them. The same parasite infects all catlle. No milk or meat. Beyond that Africa is not the best place to raise crops. How can you have a peaceful country when they don’t have the necessary resources to do anything about it?

It is not the religion causing the problem on the condom/planned parenthood debate. It is the people who give that religion power. Get informed and change the rules. Don’t be afraid.

I too feel a duty to the human race. I am agnostic. I was once atheist. It has nothing to do with rewards or heaven. It is about doing what you deep down, truly feel is right. The smartest people in the world tend towards atheism and agnosticism. Why is that? We can’t obviously say our views are better because of it, but we can make others try to understand.

At the same time we will be asked, what makes you right? What makes us wrong? Simple questions from simple thinkers. It comes down to understanding. Some of us think more than others and do research. We do start to put the pieces together. We need to help others start caring about more than living a cookie cutter life. It is scary to do, but it is worth it in many ways.

I do not believe in god like most do. I believe in an underlying order to the universe that is so deep, we could call it god. I will not listen to Jewish based religions. There is absolutely no substance to them. They are extremely long and boring story books with a lot of rules thrown in. The debates on them lead to story like explanations. Science is my love, and there are a few religions out there that can help its cause. If it takes a religion to fight a religion, it may as well be science.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 09:37 AM
What good is god? “God” will be worthless until we can understand what god is. We are not there yet. Expect no help from someone/something else when we won’t even help ourselves.

In the end we have a lot of the same thoughts. I enjoyed reading yours. It is always good to end with a question, so I will simply ask, what are your thoughts on my thoughts?

Edit~I do not mean to be disrespectful or to upset anyone. These are my thoughts. If you get upset by it, fine. At the very least try to respect my opinions, because I do respect yours. I may not like it, but I respect it for what it is.

[edit on 16-11-2009 by s373r3d]

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 11:22 AM
reply to post by Kerry_Knight

i;m not sure you understood my 'kid' arguement however 'cute' you think i am...

this is a very real question, if everything needs a designer (which i say it does not) then who designed the designer?

THAT is the problem, if something as complex as a god can exist for no reason then why can't energy exist without a creator?

You say Dawkins can't answer the question of what we evolved from, that sir is an out and out lie - the genetic line of human development is well understood - right back towards being nothing more than amino acids - of course we don't have every single relative in a line (that would be over 800million glass cases) however with genetics, anthropology, etc we have managed to piece together the many stages man developed though... just picking on one tiny space and saying 'AH HA! A HOLE!' i just silly - certain genes development can be traced back millions of years, the many uses of the hox gene for example or the bit of genetic code for encoding vitamin C i keep mentioning and creationlists keep ignoring....

Animals related to us developed the ability to encode vitamin C in the same way we still encode many other vitamins, amino acids and the like - well, at some point when we were in three jungles eating mainly fruit a freak mutation, a copying error in our DNA, caused the ability to make Vitamin C to be ruined, a segment of DNA from further along was copied right into the middle of of - breaking it's functionality forever! Well this never bothered us because we got plenty of fruit, thus plenty of vitamin C... The error became 'fixxed' in out genetic make up, which means now when we go on a long voyage we need to take plenty of fruit with us otherwise we get scurvy due to lack of vitamin C! Dogs don't get this, they spit away from us before the error happened and thus never get scurvy.

This genetic order is seen throughout the DNA of all living and dead species, we can actually tell where the split in different species comes, it forms a complex tree (the tree of life) and we can trace out way along it - the point at which all simian DNA splits from all human DNA, the point before that when all simian DNA splits from mammal DNA, etc, etc, etc - these all tie together and follow a logical and fixed system. Dawkins in 'Ancestors Tale' goes backwards (for reasons he explains) right through all the many steps explaining each rendezvous point, the point at which we meet other species on the way to the same original goal - our Abiogenesis.

Evolution works, it explains how everything came to be where it is and be like it is, how come we have eyes and ears, how we developed noto chords into spinal chords, how we developed lungs, why birds can fly and whales can swim (even why they have hippo legs burried deep within their blubber) - sure it's not finished yet, we have many, many amazing and exciting things left to discover and understand, what the exact reason for us learning to walk upright was -we have many ideas but as yet aren't done testing them, certainly some of the finer details of our evolution is stll a mystery to us - that by no means means that evolution isn't proven, it's right and isn't as far as anything goes watertight.

As for your other statement...

questions on cosmology, we get more largely untestable theory

How sir do you suggest we test our theory? We could travel at light speed i suppose and see what happens, We could go back in time to the start of the big bang, we could travel to the ends of the universe and measure it - haha don't worry science won't rest until it HAS done these things, however thats an awful lot of science away.... For now we have to measure and test everything stuck on this little ball of rock, we're doing pretty well at it - i think it was feynman who said best when he pointed out that quantum models have made predictions so accurate that it's that same as is Columbus had predicted the breadth of the USA to within one eighth of an inch!

The scientific world tests, tests and tests everything it can - thats why we have atom smashers and hadron crashers - it's what most our deep space probes are doing, out imaging satellites - they aren't just up there to take pretty pictures for your desktop wallpaper - they are doing REAL science... Testing the ideas of Einstein, Feynman, Hawkins and co - and guess what, they're discovering more and more stuff which backs up sciences standard model!

It's not fair to say that cosmology and evolution aren't testable or show no evidence, time and time again these theory's are used to purpose likely outcomes and time and time again they are proven to be correct to amazing degrees - this is why scientists are happy to treat them as fact.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 12:18 PM
reply to post by s373r3d

Alan Turing the man who made the first computer and used it to crack the nazi enigma code, this man was hounded by religious people because he was a homosexual - shortly after the war he was arrested and chemically castrated, falling into depression and dispare - his scientific life ruined, Alan took his own life. This happened because a few lines in the vile book they call the bible says that man should not lay with man as man lays with woman. It also says a little further down you should stone your children with stones if they disobey you and won't listen (typical teenages rite) but they stopped paying attention to that some time before 1000ad.

We are sitting here typing to each other DESPITE religion, only with the massive pressure secular bodies had but on the religions over the years have religions relaxed to the point at which i can openly admit to my heresy and atheism - it's wasn't too long ago that the likes of thomas de Torquemada were rounding up anyone who someone even suggested they thought like i do and tortured them to death. That is why i think it would be a good thing to finally once and for all move away from religion, because if we don't we could go back to those dark days...

anyway sorry to say but alas i was born to hippy stock, i looked at the truth from the east from an early age - Buddism and Taoism are great thought systems, however their eternal nirvana is suicide of the soul and i'm sorry but i'm not about to crush an acorn as precious as the human soul even if it IS my own tormented and suffering assured existence! 'the path' is a great concept and certainly our modern concept (flavored by pagan and secular western philosophy of course) of nirvana is much better then the one Siddhartha Gautama or Laozi (both about as likely as jesus to have existed) envisioned.

Don't think that i discount all this off hand, i listen and take the wise lessons those that are still and always will be true and right - however i don't accept for a second the divinity of anything. Right now i'm listening to a devotional song, gonna put an album by an orthodox jew on next - not believing that something was said by a wizard doesn't mean you have to discount any of the great things they discovered, i know Atheists who even respect the power of preying, they say that by quietly vocalizing emotional responses and feelings, to actually put into words that things you want to happen - it sort of clears the mind, focuses perception and the ability to actually try to make the world the place you want it to be - actually if you look into it almost all religions will tell you from a theological perspective that their idealized version of 'god' doesn't actually answer anyone who's preying - the catholic church say this, luthor and calvin both said this, even judaism (orthodox, modern and radical) and islam (sunny and Shea) say this yet still people prey endlessly - why should an Atheist who also believes that no one will answer not get the same psychological and organizational benefits of 'preying'

Well if you wish to hold your Deist god then be my guest, you don't sound the the sort who will try to teach my kids about eternal damnation or a six thousand year old earth so it shouldn't cause me any worries

You asked my opinion on your opinion, well, i would say that actually you see and understand the world very clearly - maybe you can't quiet trust yourself to be your own guardian, your own moral compass but you probably should - I think if you accepted what you know about how truth is always the best answer when thinking about things because the more truth we can face the more accurate we can be in our thinking and thus the more right we can be in our action, then you would feel much more secure in yourself and your ability to actuate your own existence. Accepting the actual truth of things as you understand them, all the possible and likely things that could and are happening then trying to find your way to act in a way which will attain the results you really desire will show you the door to a new understanding of the world and existence, a way of seeing new beauty in all things... well whatever just my soothsayer spirit guides two dinari (read my post above about my atheist spirit world if that makes no sence

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 01:25 PM
reply to post by NatureBoy

THAT is the problem, if something as complex as a god can exist for no reason then why can't energy exist without a creator?

Quoted for truth. The creator must obviously be more complex than its creation. So if the creator can exist without another creator, than we admit that even more complex systems like our universe can exist without a designer. Why not remove the unnecesary compexity (creator) and say only the universe exist without a designer? Occams razor - remove unnecessary complexity.

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 01:39 PM

Originally posted by s373r3d
What good is god? “God”

[edit on 16-11-2009 by s373r3d]

Well, if God is real and he created YOU, then YOU tell MEEE

what good was that?

posted on Nov, 16 2009 @ 01:43 PM
reply to post by Kerry_Knight

Funny that you should puck up on only those few words and ignore all the other things that have been said, it's almost as if you are pretending they don't exist - like creationists pretend that all the evidence for evolution doesn't exist.

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