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10 Ways Darwin got it wrong - The Conspiracy of Evolution

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posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Kerry_Knight

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

Originally posted by Kerry_Knight

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

Originally posted by HumbleStudent111
Why dont scientist try to use their great intiligence to save the world instead of creating things that can be used to destroy it? The world is getting worse and worse a nuclear war could break out at anytime and would destroy nearly everyone a weapon created by scientist why would you put your faith in them?


It was politicians that sanctioned and used nuclear weapons, not scientists. Yeah, a handful of scientists that created a terrible weapon means that every scientist is evil, nevermind all the medical breakthroughs and technology that make your life better.

And countless atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, so what exactly is your point? Maybe you should get over yourself and realise that it's human nature that causes the wrongs in the world, and not one ideology.


It was politicians that sanctioned and used religion to commit those atrocities, does that mean that every Christian is evil!

Nevermind all the homeless and hungry that religious orgs feed house and cloth that make their life better.

By the way, Godless nations have killed more people than all the religious wars combined friend.


Please explain to me where I said every christian was evil? So called "godless nations" didn't base their violence from their lack of belief in god. There was no "oh, just because i don't believe in god, i'm going to slaughter a bunch of people." But, what was the motivating factor behind the atrocities done in the name of religion? That's right, religion.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by DisappearCompletely]


How do you know not having a religious culture didn't influence the genocides back then. Most were inspired by social darwinsim and eugenics. The only reason you can say they weren't done in atheism's name is because in a Godless society where religion is outlawed, YOU don't HAVE any atheist's do you. The facts of history prove religious societies have far out lasted non religious ones



Please explain to me where I said every christian was evil?


Ill explain that if you explain where the poster you responded to, said all scientists are evil, ok? Get the point?



[edit on 15-11-2009 by Kerry_Knight]


Religious outlasted them because relgion has always been used to control the masses, and to explain things people didn't understand. The church and religion has always been against people that proved them wrong, people that questioned their power/knowledge. Just look at what they did to Galileo. We now KNOW he was right, yet it took the church hundreds of years to actually appologize and acknowledge the fact that he was right publicly.

Why? BECAUSE THEY WANT TO STAY IN POWER, AND IF THEY ARE WRONG TOO MANY TIMES, EVEN DONKEYS WILL STOP FOLLOWING THEIR BELIEFS!!

But fine, if you prefer to base your knowledge on unfounded belief, instead of looking for empirical evidence, then by all means, believe we haven't evolved from the ape...but rather when God snipped his fingers and created Adam and Eve, lol.




posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by psychederic
 


Talking about sheep *commonly used to refer to group-think or herd mentality* and then speaking for/as a group. Now THAT'S hypocritically funny!



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by Kerry_Knight

I wouldn't know, you see, I can't reconcile aspects of the digital code in DNA to say unequivocally whether it is guided or not but all the evidence is looking more favorable for ID than evolution and is why the top 16 evolutionary scietists have been working frantically to creat a major overhaul reconstructing the entire theory from scratch as the latest data regarding DNA proves mutation fails as a mechanism.


scienceblogs.com...

Remember Suzan Mazur, the credulous reporter hyping a revolution in evolution? She's at it again, publishing an e-book chapter by chapter on the "Altenberg 16", this meeting that she thinks is all about radically revising evolutionary biology.

I can tell that Massimo Pigliucci — one of the 16 — is feeling a little exasperation at this nonsense, especially since some of the IDists have seized on it as vindication of their delusions about the "weakness" of evolutionary theory. He's got an excellent post (rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com...) summarizing some of the motivation behind this meeting, which is actually part of a fairly routine process of occasional get-togethers by scientists with similar ideas to hash out the concepts.Here's the actual subject of discussion at the Altenberg meeting.

“The basic idea is that there have been some interesting empirical discoveries, as well as the articulation of some new concepts, subsequently to the Modern Synthesis, that one needs to explicitly integrate with the standard ideas about natural selection, common descent, population genetics and statistical genetics (nowadays known as evolutionary quantitative genetics). Some of these empirical discoveries include (but are not limited to) the existence of molecular buffering systems (like the so-called “heat shock response”) that may act as “capacitors” (i.e., facilitators) of bursts of phenotypic evolution, and the increasing evidence of the role of epigenetic (i.e., non-genetic) inheritance systems (this has nothing to do with Lamarckism, by the way). Some of the new concepts that have arisen since the MS include (but again are not limited to) the idea of “evolvability” (that different lineages have different propensities to evolve novel structures or functions), complexity theory (which opens the possibility of natural sources of organic complexity other than natural selection), and “accommodation” (a developmental process that may facilitate the coordinated appearance of complex traits in short evolutionary periods).

Now, did you see anything in the above that suggests that evolution is "a theory in crisis"? Did I say anything about intelligent designers, or the rejection of Darwinism, or any of the other nonsense that has filled the various uninformed and sometimes downright ridiculous commentaries that have appeared on the web about the Altenberg meeting? Didn't think so. If next week's workshop succeeds, what we will achieve is taking one more step in an ongoing discussion among scientists about how our theories account for biological phenomena, and how the discovery of new phenomena is to be matched by the elaboration of new theoretical constructs. This is how science works, folks, not a sign of "crisis."


I suggest you read all of what Pigliucci has to say.



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 09:52 AM
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Hi guys!
I leave for awhile and look what happens!

More namecalling and bashing. What a shock.
I really feel all special now!

Actually, I just feel sorry for the ones who do not know him as I do.
But no, I wont pray for you or bless you either.
I never said I would........

I realized some may have a problem with it.

I am sure they must be perfect, happy and immortal already.
And your welcome for that!

You see, I have a thing called respect for others.

Anyway, I'll wait till we get to heaven to say I told ya so.
If you decide to show up that is.

Thanks for all your posts anyway.
I think I'll go look for some positive proof of aliens or bigfoot now....
....bye bye bipeds. C ya, wouldnt wanna be ya.



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:00 AM
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Can anyone guess what Darwinians and the Christians have in common? FAITH that they are right. Darwin has no conclusive proof that we evolved from anything at all, just like Christians have no hard evidence that God is real. So faith and faith alone drives each party. Darwinians will spew rhetoric about evidence that 'suggests' a link. But sadly for them they are in the same boat as the Christians, the proof has not been found yet. So until either party finds the proof they need, be respectful to each other and play nice. Everyone has the rite to believe or not believe what they will.

P.S.-Here is a thought tho...What does a Christian really stand to lose by believing? They die and there is nothing there they have lost nothing. A non-believer on the other hand who dies after a lifetime of denouncing Gods very existence to find there is a God after all...


Again, just food for thought.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s
 


But also, what if "god" doesn't care if we denounce him/her/it? I personally would not if I was. Given what and who we are, humanity I mean.



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s
 


oh gosh, didn't you here pascals wager has being ruined by philosopher after philosopher...

as for faith, no science doesn't use faith it uses testability and coherence - to say that evolution is nothing but faith is to seriously misunderstand science and evolution.

Go read Richard Dawkins 'Ancestors Tale' - it's a complete walk though of the evolution of man; each stage, each step described and explained in the most beautiful detail. This covers all the mechanisms and actions of nature's guiding hand (metaphorical of course) in our development, when you have looked at all this evidence piled upon evidence and how it all works together in total harmony then you'll stop called evolution a faith and understand it as a fact.

The concept that god created everything just for us has rather a lot of huge flaws in it,

#why is the universe so massive if its all just for us?
#why do flesh eating bugs exist? why do children starve? why do women die in childbirth due to out extra large heads?
#why do we contain the code in our DNA to produce vitamin C but it's been broken by a bit of junk dna accidentally copied into the middle of it?
#whales have hippo legs inside their blubber, why would god do that?
#why doesn't the bible know how many actual planets exist?
#why doesn't the bible know about animals which exist in places middle eastern bronzeage shepherds had never heard of?
dinosaurs?
#why did god make so many billions of types of species only for them to die out millions of years before man walked the earth?
#why can all the species of animal be classed sensibly by evolution as in the tree of life however the bible repeatedly confused animals relationships to each other and classes many animals in totally wrong?

science doesn't state that it is always right, rather it states the opposite - we only know what we can and have observed, our opinion shifts as the evidence does. Religion on the other hand boldly states that they are always and absolutely right and correct - just one flaw in the science god dictated should be enough to prove that it wasn't a perfect being who wrote that book, however no one thinks darwin was perfect - he did however point us in the right direction to finally being able to complete the task naturalists had struggled with for hundreds of years, classing all the living animals together in cohesive relationships and postulating from whence we came.



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by NatureBoy
 


#why is the universe so massive if its all just for us?


Yet none of those arguments discredit the possibility of the existance of what we would call a "god". Just particular flavors of said possibility.



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by dodadoom
10 ways Darwin got it wrong.


Let me refer you Mark 10:27.

If God created evolution, then Darwin didn't get it wrong. All is possible.



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 10:58 AM
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I don't think its allowed anymore to have any hope.
I think 'ours' were dashed long ago.
If you try to, you are bashed for not going along with the norm.
It is deemed delusional or similar to have any.

We have no future then, we are on a rudderless boat headed nowhere.
Wow, that sounds purty nice, where do I sign up?

We are just supposed to bow down to our "leaders",
and don't make any waves.

Do and believe what 'we' think is right or else....
Don't take responsibility for yourself in any way.
Including and especially your health, taxes and finances.
'We' want to control and profit on every move you make.
Matter of fact, dont even ever question it anymore.
Just go with what's easiest.

Silly me. What's wrong with me. I've heard all this...
Maybe I better go join "those people"!



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by NatureBoy
 

Thanks everyone for your posts!

Can I answer these for fun?
Or would my opinion somehow freak out someone?


Well, I take my chances I guess. Here goes wish me luck.
Have faith in me.
Only speculating here peeps. Go easy...

why is the universe so massive if its all just for us?
Because it is? We need lotsa room to spread out?
Have you seen the size of our houses, bodies and cars?


#why do flesh eating bugs exist?
cause everything has it's place, including you and I?
why do children starve?
cause they have no food- cause of many reasons?
god gave air, water and light for us to grow it, not his fault?
possibly our fault for being stupid with our food?
out of ground, water or seeds?
dont have a micky d's?

why do women die in childbirth due to out extra large heads?
Genetic defect? Stuff happens? No ones perfect? Just guessing of course..
Maybe just a small birth canal, its all in the perspective?
New race of huge headed human alien hybrids?

#why do we contain the code in our DNA to produce vitamin C but it's been broken by a bit of junk dna accidentally copied into the middle of it?
Once agin, no one (or thing) is perfect? szhtuff happens?
junk in da trunk?

#whales have hippo legs inside their blubber, why would god do that?
They musta ate a hippo?

They were tired of walking and decided to just go swiming and keep swiming?

#why doesn't the bible know how many actual planets exist?
They are still being formed?

#why doesn't the bible know about animals which exist in places middle eastern bronzeage shepherds had never heard of?
gods not interested in saving them?
dinosaurs? same?

#why did god make so many billions of types of species only for them to die out millions of years before man walked the earth?
he was just experimenting so that he could get us right the first time?
see above, szhtuff happens?

#why can all the species of animal be classed sensibly by evolution as in the tree of life however the bible repeatedly confused animals relationships to each other and classes many animals in totally wrong?
not sure, may have been gone that day?
which tree of life, important missing information?
man confused, bible maybe, not god?
what matters when all have peace?
why not just smell flowers and sing kum ba ya?
who cares? LOL


Great questions. Do I win a prize or anything?

I'm kidding around of course, humor's still okay right?
I thank you NB!


[edit on 15-11-2009 by dodadoom]



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


indeed, so what you are saying is that their might be a god.... a Deist god who had nothing to do with the bible?!?!?!?

in which case........ THE STORY OF CREATION IN THE BIBLE IS MEANINGLESS.

Thus organized religion has no rational answers to how we got here, however EVOLUTION and SCIENCE do!

if you want we could derail the thread into Epicurus and Spinoza to defeat your deist god but meh lets stay on the darwin vs creation topic hu?



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by dodadoom
 




allowed anymore to have any hope


Rather i would say that breaking away from the pointless existence as nothing but a slave to god, a being designed for nothing but to worship the creator - opening up a brave new world, one in which we are free to create our own destiny - free to explore and build and discover, let us craft with our hands a future in which we can all be happy and productive - let us raise our lowered heads and for the first time actually hope for something other than slavery.



We are just supposed to bow down to our "leaders"


Yes that is what religion teaches, however how we have science we are each and everyone our own leaders - no more are we but followers of a divine plan, we are in charge of our own destiny - that is a truly great thing. Far from being rudderless now we finally have our hand on the controls, we are in charge of our own destiny - if that doesn't fill you with hope and awe then i don't know what will (beside storys about invisible wizards we're supposed to worship)



Don't take responsibility for yourself in any way.


Again YES this IS what god says to us, however science gives us the power, us the responsibility - i am the cause of all my actions, not some godhead - how i act isn't dependent on weather i get to go to his party in the sky or not its dependent on the sort of world i want to create for myself and my fellow humans. Again i say, we have broken free of the horrible shackles the clergy bound us with and are embrasing a new more amazingly positive mindset.

All your answers presuppose the bible and religion are not perfect, in which case they are nothing but an attempt at science - a very poor bronzeage attempt at science - really this is all religion ever was, a shadow of what science would soon become but hidden and suppressed under the many lies of the clergy.

Embrace freedom and hope, put the old nonsence behind you - welcome the glory that is science! then maybe all WILL have peace - because certainly their has never been a second when religion has been on this planet in which all have had peace.



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by NatureBoy
reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s
 

Go read Richard Dawkins 'Ancestors Tale' - it's a complete walk though of the evolution of man; each stage, each step described and explained in the most beautiful detail. This covers all the mechanisms and actions of nature's guiding hand (metaphorical of course) in our development, when you have looked at all this evidence piled upon evidence and how it all works together in total harmony then you'll stop called evolution a faith and understand it as a fact.


I have read this in fact. What it does is present some facts and then fill in the blank spots (i.e. the spots where they have little to no conclusive or hardcore archaeological proof) with what they THEORIZE (a.k.a. have faith) was the next step in human evolution. So until all the steps can be proven 100% its all speculation and still vulnerable to being proven as hogwash.




Originally posted by NatureBoy
reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s
 
The concept that god created everything just for us has rather a lot of huge flaws in it,

#why is the universe so massive if its all just for us?


Who said it is only us? Not to push the E.T. wagon, but God or no God it would be arrogant of us to assume that we are the only, not to mention most intelligent, lifeforms in the universe. Is math a science? I would argue that it is. With the vast possibilities that are out there the odds are better then average that we are not alone.

As for the rest of your 'Why...' questions, according to many believers it is not our place to know Gods plan. If that's the case then is it any wonder we are left with more questions then answers? The Bible is a record of what God wanted us to know, not a record of all He knows.

Regardless who is rite or wrong I personally enjoy the journey that is the seeking of knowledge, and enjoy the debates and friendships I have forged with both sides.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]

[edit on 15-11-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s
 




Regardless who is rite or wrong I personally enjoy the journey that is the seeking of knowledge, and enjoy the debates and friendships I have forged with both sides.


you sound like you would enjoy science alot more than religion - seeking knowledge is not something religion tends to support historically - certainly accepting others have a valid viewpoint is very much at odds with the biblical theologians who persecuted heretics with such firey passion and passionate fires (around stakes)

oh and for the record, of course we aren't alone in this universe - most likely life has evolved to some degree on the majority of planets which it is able too, however god never mentions this - it doesn't really fit in with the judechristian tradition does it? although even the pope has said that life most likely does exist in the cosmos - i suppose when we see it finally and find that they also seem to have evolved, all fit into various groups based on evolution and don't have copies of the bible then debate will be over? god i hope so! lol.

surely you see that evolution explains Australia, South America, etc, etc while the bible absolutely says absurd things which can't possible be true - Noah and his flood for example, he can not possible have carried all those animals onto his ship this deposited the around the globe so marsupials only live in certain areas while horses and horselike animals exist in south america and africa but not in many other area, etc... so what does religion do - it says that a story told for most likely a thousand to three thousand years as fact is actaully just a bizarre metaphor,

(with the moral being we presume that drunks who think god is telling them to build ships should obey? that god is likely to kill all of humanity on a whim? maybe even we could go as far to say that out of all humanity only child beating, crazy (cold shoulders his son and demanded he be his brothers slave for seeing Noah nude))

Well if Noah and is flood is a metaphorical then why not genesis? Leviticus? Deuteronomy? numbers? gospels? revelations?

Evolution works, it's the main corner stone of modern biology - much more than just a guess, if you seriously read the entire ancestors tale and didn't understand this then i am shocked. Maybe then bill bryson's short history of nearly everything will help? he covers how biology came to the conclusions it stands at today, how many studies and experiments have gone into fine tuning evolution and biology - then maybe you'll understand the difference between faith and scientific method.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by NatureBoy]



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by NatureBoy
 

Way kewl tewls! Thanks!

My whole outlook has change now!
You mean I can drop these slave shackles finally?
From a ruthless and evil God?
And control my own destiny? Wow, what a concept!
That totally rocks dudeski!

Oh, you saved my lost soul, er...hope!
I better send my 10% to you right now!

Thank you so much for the hope of all mankind!

(I think you may have missed something in my post)
Thanks again!



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by NatureBoy
 


If only life was as simple as you portray it........ *chuckles*



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by dodadoom
 


haha ok sorry, sometimes its hard to tell who's joking and who's a religious true believer or simply someone who would rather not contemplate the issues.

As for your answers you might be interested to learn that without modern medicine humans have about a one in five mortality rate at birth, although certain studies and practices have suggested this can be lower (squatting for example) in general though out history the figure is about right, this is due to the size of our brain - a device so powerful and important that the advantage out increased mental capacity gave us far outweighed the negative effects it's enlargement brought -namely increased infant mortality, increased childhood, etc - thus we developed large and large brains - today our large brain helps us to overcome the complex issues of childbirth but this has only be the case for the last 1% maybe of our big brained existence....

surely ANY intelligent designer would have fixed this problem by articulating the hips as some other animals have or by some other means, indeed if god made us why do we even need brains? he doesn't have a physical brain, surely then we can assume that he could make some system more compact or ephemeral to contain our intellect?

The simple fact is we aren't designed very well, well not if you think a perfect being made us - the entire gut system could be a fission reactor and a single drop of sea water could power us for a thousand years!

I presume god wants us to suffer? part of his plan? because god needs a plan?

what is it that god the totally all powerful needs to plan for? can't he just create the finished result with less effort than a ruffled eyebrow?

If gods plan requires than millions upon millions of babies need to die trying to squeeze their way out of the womb then how can all these crazy christian PRO-LIFE types complain that god has ordered some doctors to abort fetus which he is angry with? surely it's all ordained as part of his plan? or it's all nonsence which he doesn't care about because he isn't a hands on god and had nothing to do with our evolutionary development - in which case, is he really god? or just an immortal voyer?

so do you rather believe in a mean spirited and cruel god, a creepy stalker god or the amazing power and possibility of science, mathematics and random happenstance?



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


the best bit of these debates between rational logical science and mindless unthinking religion is the point when the religious side totally unable to answer any of the points science has proved chuckles and says "ah but i'm right because i know i am, you're just not smart enough to see....."

a simple ad hom attack and a baseless one at that won't win you many arguments my friend, why not try going back and dealing with some of the points i raise?



posted on Nov, 15 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by NatureBoy
you sound like you would enjoy science alot more than religion - seeking knowledge is not something religion tends to support historically - certainly accepting others have a valid viewpoint is very much at odds with the biblical theologians who persecuted heretics with such firey passion and passionate fires (around stakes)

Evolution works, it's the main corner stone of modern biology - much more than just a guess, if you seriously read the entire ancestors tale and didn't understand this then i am shocked. Maybe then bill bryson's short history of nearly everything will help? he covers how biology came to the conclusions it stands at today, how many studies and experiments have gone into fine tuning evolution and biology - then maybe you'll understand the difference between faith and scientific method.


I am one of the rare breed that enjoys both. I tend to view science as an infant to this world. There are so many theories in the scientific community that are yet to be proven which some could use to argue that science is still too young to prove there is no God/(enter any deity name here). Saying that a deity must not exists because we cant use science to prove it sounds like the illogical rambling of those that insisted the world was flat. It is rather irresponsible to use the lack of ability to prove anything as the foundation to of ones disbelief. You were rite that in the past generations religious leaders frowned on the seeking of knowledge (and in some cases still do today), but crimes have been committed by both sides. Case in point would be any tech that the creator intended to better mankind which in turn became a weapon of some sort. (i.e. Nukes would be a good start for that list) Use of experimental drugs not yet approved by the FDA as a way to treat illnesses (before you try to debunk that #1 remember where we are having this conversation and #2 do you recall any of the drugs that people saw advertised on TV that ended up having lethal side effects in the long term? But hey, acceptable loss in the name of advancing science rite?)

Like many I once believed there was a difference between faith and what you call science method. But what I have done is tossed out all the high dollar words from college to shorten the trip and clear the view. Follow me on this: Faith is to believe in something that you can not prove or have no proof of. A theory is an end result, item or situation that you believe to be possible but have yet to prove. I understand that theories are tested and either proven correct or incorrect. But by scripture alone most religious followers are at a disadvantage since they are warned not to 'test the Lord thy God'. Perhaps you see how its easy for me to say that both sides have faith. Although I do understand why most of my Darwinian friends hate to use any word that could in any way associate them with the religious community. Darwin or God forbid!


[edit on 15-11-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]

[edit on 15-11-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]



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