Feds move to seize N.Y. skyscraper, 4 mosques

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by centurion1211

 

Hey this is slightly off topic, and I apologize for that, but there was a story featured on this very website just last night illustrating the "peaceability" of Extremist Christians who murder people in cold blood leaving abortion clinics.

In the end, extremists are extremists are extremists.

OK, but how many is that now that have been killed by "extremist Christians"? Are we up to counting them on 2 hands yet?

I loved living in AR for over 10 years when I had the chance. Glad I never met you.

reply to post by centurion1211


That was a nice under-handed insult. Props

Actually, do you really want to go down that line of thought? Spanish Inquisition?

Nope, in the end, the logic is faulty.
The real reason for war is aquisition of land, money or defense of land.

Religion is just the tool that the Governments use to rally their soldiers.

I would have thought a "Roman" would understand that.

Originally posted by centurion1211
OK, but how many is that now that have been killed by "extremist Christians"? Are we up to counting them on 2 hands yet?

Millions of people have already been killed in the name of Christianity. If they're slowing down now, it's only because people have learned over hundreds of years to not take the church seriously anymore here in the West.

Christians still murder people, I would wager many more people than Muslims do in this country just by the sheer majority of Christians and the fact that Muslims do not commit most murder in this country. What "name" the killing is done for, doesn't change anything at all imo. You still only have lone nuts doing this stuff, not anywhere near the majority of Muslims.


Freedom of religion.

Many more Americans have already died for that, than any Muslims here have killed.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by centurion1211

 

That was a nice under-handed insult. Props

Sorry, but was there long enough to learn the "art" of what I called the "Southern slam".

[Actually, do you really want to go down that line of thought? Spanish Inquisition?

We are talking about the present and not 500 years ago, right?

The real reason for war is aquisition of land, money or defense of land.

You got one right.

Religion is just the tool that the Governments use to rally their soldiers.

Some theocratic governments, but certainly not all governments.

I would have thought a "Roman" would understand that.

Until the time of the emperor Constantine, Roman wars were not about religion. You could find everone's favorite temple in Rome.

[edit on 11/12/2009 by centurion1211]

These are not just businesses providing financial support for the regime, they are also bases they use for spies - to spy on exiles, or assassinate them. This is not just an issue of Islamic extremism or terrorism plots, these are comparable to the soviet spies of history. Shutting down these operations internally within the US is necessary as part of sanctions against Iran.

No doubt these spies are also here in Britain as well. Many exiles forced out of Iran by the regime have been taken out, and many more will before this rancid regime resides to the rubbish bin of history.

We should also shut down their bases in the relevant mosques in Islamic centres in London, providing we have the evidence to do so, as the US intelligence services seem to have.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

Although Dr Hejazi received thousands of e-mails praising his courage in speaking out, supporters of the regime threatened to kill him, and called him a murderer, a spy and Ms Soltan’s pimp. Oxford police installed alarms and a hotline in his two-bedroom rented house on the edge of the city but he still does not feel entirely safe. He opens his door with caution, and asks that his wife’s name not be published. “I worry for my security,” he said.

In Tehran the regime is exacting revenge on Caravan Books, the publishing house that Dr Hejazi co-founded and which employs 22 people. It has used Iran’s censorship laws to ban the publisher’s books and forbidden banks from giving it loans, even after Dr Hejazi resigned as editorial director. “They are trying to close the company down,” he says. He believes that the regime is pursuing him not just because he has seriously embarrassed it — “a lot of the pressure is to discourage others from speaking out”.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by john124]

Originally posted by jacksmoke
reply to post by bsbray11

 

I agree with the statement regarding remembering history and the persecution of Jews and other minorities throughout history. I feel that the Fed would not do something this drastic without some solid evidence that they can trot out to the public, i.e. some kind of proof that these mosques were used as a front for terrorist activities (FT Hood shooting) or Iran was funding terrorist groups around the world from the New York building.

It could also be to keep Isreal from launching a pre-emptive strike that they have been threatening.

Who Knows

The feds haven't provided any evidence, under counter terrorism law they don't have to bring evidence to the public, hence national security. If the American public would go against an action the state has implemented, keeping it secret is a national security issue because the nation would be more insecure if people started rising up against the government. Therefore any information which could push the public against the governing body is a nation security measure, truth is not an issue.

That being said, let's not forget that it was the FBI who arrested thousands of Muslims, and locked them up, questioned them, then release them telling them they had done nothing wrong. We don't even know about the hidden cases. We only know a very small part of the vast picture.

Thanks for bringing this up

oz

Finally, something the feds are good at.

They certainly are unable to deal with the corruption within federal agencies, nor can they even control their own internal investigations... In fact they need a good diversion... Islamophobia must be exploited to the fullest.

Meanwhile.... In the real world, 64 are now dead or missing in their efforts to cover-up the truth... And NOTHING has been done about it, most of it has not even been reported in the news. Not one involved has any ties to Islam... Go figure.

The feds are going after the Islamic boogiemans tho... I'm impressed.

Karma is a bitch... Your day is coming.

reply to post by centurion1211


I see there are certain blind people who infest every thread, that contains at a minimum of 5% of religion within a topic, with anti-[insert religion name] hate messages.

These people and their continuous crusade to make their hate contagious is ever so futile and as I said before you can NEVER win a debate when your sole tool of persuation is to generalize.

I'm sorry but it's just impossible to win a debate this way.
hate stems from ignorance, so how can an ignorant person win with ignorance on his side?

you aren't even fighting with a double edged sword, its only sharp on one end and that's the end that you are holding.

Common sense ends where religion starts and that applies to every religion on this planet.

You are on the side of the same side of imperialism that ended the roman empire and as voltaire said "all fiat currencies will one day return to it's intrinsic value which is ZERO", and that's the same currency that is subsidizing these wars and financed propoganda from the same media outlets that you condemn.

My friend you are stuck in a paradox and you don't even know it.

Derailing every thread won't help spread your message but instead you will only diminish your message as you portray yourself as nothing more than a troll.

And this isn't finger pointing directly at you but rather at your message and mostly your approach to such topics.

No matter where you live or come from, you have to support the majority of your countrymen.

And wars that bankrupt your country, make your country a more dangerous place to live in and seeing people kicked out of their homes because of the economic impact of hate(wars - war profiteering) does the exact opposite of that.

I guess some are their own worst enemy and they don't even know it.

You keep speaking of islam and the quran, if you were impartial you would also speak of the old testament my friend.

all abrahamic religions stem from imperialism, they are military handbooks for sheep and nothing more.

Divide and conquer, then dictators rebuild a nation under their psychotic vision.

History just keeps repeating itself, it's like the most small big bang theory time-wise.

It's just so very sad

Look's like retaliation, any thought's


Spokesman of Iranian consulate killed in Pakistan: police
Thursday, 12 November 2009 20:15 Vietnam Dailynews .Gunmen shot dead the spokesman for the Iranian consulate in the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar on Thursday, police and witnesses said.



Photo taken on Nov. 12, 2009 shows a bullet hole on the windscreen of the car where Syed Abul Hasan was shot dead in Peshawar, Pakistan. Syed Abul Hasan, director of public relations in the Iranian consulate in Peshawar, was shot dead in the city on Thursday. (Xinhua Photo)


Syed Abul Hasan, Director Public Relations in the Iranian consulate in Peshawar, the capital of North West Frontier Province (NWFP), was fired upon at Gulbarg area of the city, police officer Nisar Ali said.

Hasan was shifted to the hospital and doctors said he is in critical condition. He died of wounds, doctors said.

No group claimed responsibility for the attack.

Witnesses said that two gunmen, riding motorcycle, fled after the attack.

Police said that the gunmen opened fire at Hasan, a Pakistani national, as he came out of his residence to go to the office.

Ali said that the Iranian consulate official received at least four bullets.

In November 2008, some gunmen kidnapped Iranian commercial attache Heshmatollah Atharzadeh in Peshawar. His driver was killed when the gunmen fired at his car. He has been missing since then.









Nov. 12, 2009

PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- Witnesses say a large bomb has badly damaged the offices of Pakistan's spy agency in the northwestern city of Peshawar.

An Associated Press reporter says he saw at least eight badly injured or dead people being taken away in ambulances.

The blast early Friday badly damaged much of the three-story building and was heard throughout the city.

It was the latest in a string of attacks by militants since the government launched an offensive in mid-October against the Taliban's main stronghold in South Waziristan.

Copyright © 2009 Associated Press

I just wish all the people who entertain a general dislike of Muslims would make themselves known. That's all.

Seriously, if you think Islam is the problem here, and those that follow Islam, just say so. If that is how you really feel, and you feel justified in it, why not make it known as such? Surely there is nothing wrong about harboring ill feelings toward everyone of a particular religion?

One poster here was already candid enough to admit he would destroy every mosque in the Western hemisphere if it were his decision. That was very enlightening. Everyone who shares those sentiments, out with it already!

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11


OH, oh, oh, let me, let me...

I have no problems with muslims, but *I* would destroy every mosque if I could.
And every church.

But that is just me.
Sure, I wouldn't do so while anyone was actually in the (insert name of worship establishment for PC), but I would love nothing more than to see every single one of these places destroyed.

But once again, this is faulty logic, is it not. It doesn't pertain to the subject, does it?

No, it doesn't.

Religion has no place in serious discussion about politics or wars.
Why? Because, as I said before, it is just the tool that the politicians use to make people do their bidding.

People are stupid.

Originally posted by JayinAR
I have no problems with muslims, but *I* would destroy every mosque if I could.
And every church.

Hmm. I also disagree with the basic premise of all organized religion, but I don't think destroying all their buildings would necessarily send the appropriate message. But who knows. If no one were inside of them, maybe it would.

Religion has no place in serious discussion about politics or wars.
Why? Because, as I said before, it is just the tool that the politicians use to make people do their bidding.

People are stupid.

Exactly. Though if the politicians are clever enough, they can also use a lot of other reasons to get people riled up for no good reason too. My advice is just don't get riled up. Be calm and sit still. If trouble ever comes to us of its own accord, we, as the most armed citizenry on the face of the planet, will be able to deal with it well enough. As it stands, our own politicians provoking us into invading foreign countries is by far the biggest threat to peace. The answer to a nut gunman murdering a score of people isn't to go murder a few thousand more on the other side of the world. We have been there enough times to know by now.

Originally posted by bsbray11


One poster here was already candid enough to admit he would destroy every mosque in the Western hemisphere if it were his decision. That was very enlightening. Everyone who shares those sentiments, out with it already!


[edit on 12-11-2009 by bsbray11]

As much as you and many others on this board would love to believe that anyone who is angered when innocents are murdered by Muslim extremists is a muslim hating knuckle dragger, it simply isn't so.

Yes there are those who will paint all Muslims with the broad brush of terrorism because of the actions of a small minority. That is a small minority.

On the other hand, some of us aren't afraid to suggest that a murderer who screams "God is Great," while killing innocent victims might be motivated by religious beliefs. We understand how many acts of violence against innocent people have been perpetrated by people who claim to be part of the Nation of Islam over the past two decades.

Those acts are historical fact. There are extremist Muslims who believe they are bound by duty to murder those who refuse to convert to their religion. We shouldn't be afraid to admit that.

We also must remember that these murderous frauds are doing significant damage to the true Muslims in this world and that we should not hold those who are true to their Muslim faith accountable for the actions of a few.

But we should ensure that justice is served on those who perpetrate terrorist attacks against US interests. And if there can be a legitimate case that other countries are sponsoring, financing or training these terrorists, we should consider it an act of War and respond in kind.

That said, I don;t know what to make of the actions the govt took tonight. I suggest we keep an open mind until we learn more about what prompted this unprecedented action. There are indeed troubling Constitutional issues that require that we keep a close eye on this.

I'm rather chagrined to admit, the first thought that went through my mind was "The board is set, the pieces are moving..."

Let's hope I have too active an imagination.

The Justice Department is getting very bold with this kind of operation.

Using counter-terrorism guidelines mean military force will likely be involved.

Originally posted by Night Watchman
We also must remember that these murderous frauds are doing significant damage to the true Muslims in this world and that we should not hold those who are true to their Muslim faith accountable for the actions of a few.

I agree completely with this.

And after events like 9/11, I think emphasizing the fact that this shooter was a Muslim and did say a stereotypical religious phrase is promoting general outrage against all Muslims. Which we seem to agree is dangerous, insofar as a bunch of ignorants will start wanting to do to Muslims what they spent decades doing to black people even after they were finally freed. That is just the sad fact of the matter: America is still full of bigots that lie just under the surface of all legitimate concerns, probably no different than any other country.

But we should ensure that justice is served on those who perpetrate terrorist attacks against US interests. And if there can be a legitimate case that other countries are sponsoring, financing or training these terrorists, we should consider it an act of War and respond in kind.

Agreed, and as far as I'm concerned we can begin by investigating the CIA's relationship to the Pakistani ISI, which the CIA funds, and which in turn has been known to fund the Taliban in Afghanistan. I've also recently read a news report where the British in Afghanistan were making deals with terrorists, paying them to "switch sides," and also building them training camps allegedly in an effort to also get them to "switch sides." If we are serious about this, then we should be serious about it.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by Night Watchman


Very well put and perfectly accurate.


When did we, as a nation, become so cowardly and brain-numb that we simply can't call a spade a spade? Now it seems more time is ridicuously spent condemning those who might have 'anti-muslim sentiments' than is spent condemnig the murdering extremists who slaughter the innocent.

Baffling.


As for the actions of the feds, let them do what they must now and deal with the consequences later. Its a simple matter of priority and a weighing of the lesser of two evils.

Companies who are owned and do business with countries who are placed under "sanctions" are not. That is what "sanctions" mean.

New sanctions have not yet been placed against Iran but i think we can all see that this is some sort of the act.

Originally posted by Rook1545
I don't get it. Are companies with ties to governments not allowed? Or only certain governments? It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Originally posted by Clark Savage Jr.
When did we, as a nation, become so cowardly and brain-numb that we simply can't call a spade a spade? Now it seems more time is ridicuously spent condemning those who might have 'anti-muslim sentiments' than is spent condemnig the murdering extremists who slaughter the innocent.

What the Nazis did before and during WW2 is what has me worried.

The Nazis over-played the threat Jews posed to them, and as a consequence killed millions of innocent people.

The thread posed to each of us by Muslim extremists in this country is virtually none. You have a greater chance of being killed by lightning. So when I hear people complaining about Muslims when in daily reality you rarely even see a devout Muslim, let alone have reason to be frightened by them, I have to say they are bitching and moaning totally out of proportion.


Thus, you people who over-sensationalize this and try to demonize an entire religion with it are much more of a danger, as you pose the potential to go off into more wars that WILL kill tens/hundreds of thousands of people.

reply to post by bsbray11

Thus, you people who over-sensationalize this and try to demonize an entire religion with it are much more of a danger, as you pose the potential to go off into more wars that WILL kill tens/hundreds of thousands of people.

Another point to add to that would be the over-reaction of many muslims (who aren't all terrorists) when somebody criticises their religion, and the protests in the UK asking for sharia law when they're using British laws allowing freedom of speech to protest against those same freedoms.

We must all accept that all religions can be criticised and discussed, otherwise this is as much part of the problem as demonising every muslim.

Muslims should respect somebody's opinion should they state that they feel Islam does incite violence, and the Qu'ran explicitly states violent acts including murder of non-believers, even though the majority of muslims are peaceful people. And those with that view should respect the peaceful Muslim's view - that Islam is a peaceful religion. Can this happen?

Well, certain muslim groups in the UK stated that the Dutch MP should have being allowed into the UK originally to state his views, even though they disagree with him. His views weren't extremist until he talked about banning the Qu'ran, because that is obviously unacceptable. It's alright to state your feeling about the Qu'ran, just like anyone would about a sports team, but it's wrong to state that the Qu'ran should be burnt, or the sports team banned, if you see where I'm coming from. There are limits to respectable discussions, and on both sides people are crossing it.

Originally posted by john124
Another point to add to that would be the over-reaction of many muslims (who aren't all terrorists) when somebody criticises their religion, and the protests in the UK asking for sharia law when they're using British laws allowing freedom of speech to protest against those same freedoms.

We must all accept that all religions can be criticised and discussed, otherwise this is as much part of the problem as demonising every muslim.

Right, and I would personally rather like to see Mohammad defiled in cartoons and the like more often, just to send that message, that yes, we are free to do those things here.


But I think a lot of that movement, of Muslims demanding special treatment (and I've seen it just as much from Christians), has also been blown up by major media to demonize Muslims. I really think the MSM is actively trying to fashion Americans into Muslim-haters, just like the Nazi propaganda machine was fashioning Germans into Jew-haters. The reason is simple: there is war to be had in the Middle East, and lots of money to the military to go with it, but first we have to be sufficiently pissed off at the people over there.

Now that's just my opinion, but even as I say that, there is a new thread here talking about some Muslim kids getting together and picking on other kids during lunch at some school somewhere. Seriously, bullying has been a fact of public schooling for decades and this crap only makes it to the news because Muslims are involved. And it's just children fighting. Come on. But there seems to be no shortage of anti-Muslim news stories in recent years.