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Introducing: Millitary Free America!!

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posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 10:41 PM
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Your anger is misguided. You should be angry at yourself for not standing up to the politicians.



Nearly ten years of activism and counting. Thanks for your support.


It is not the job of the military to police the civilian politicians, who are freely and willfully elected by the American people. In fact, we check our political views at the door once we put on the uniform.



First part I agree with. Second part is the cop out intrinsically built in to the system. You are basically run as robots. So if you happen to murder innocents by the Millions, you can say "I put my political views at the door".

Oh and what I meant was, the military is our last line of defense if the Government should become hostile toward us. And also meant was that YOU had a chance to disobey orders on your end, while we civilians voted them out on our end.

None of that happened. And many of "you guys" supported the very politicians that put you in harms way. Hows that worked out?

The people against the stupid wars can only do so much when people in unifrom are whooping and hollering that there are "defending america". See how it works?


That's why those who try and not fight end up in jail.


Hmmmm take jail, or poison millions with depleted uranium for the next million or so years.....hmmmm...lemme think.


YOU are responsible for the death. YOU are responsible for the mayhem. YOU failed to pressure your fellow Americans enough to get off their lazy asses and say they don't want these wars.


Me personally? Or civilians? Because now you're bringing up the political aspect.
I didn't vote for Bush or Obama, so you can't be talking about me.




As an aside, I'm tired of all these damn hypothetical situations about soldiers kicking down American's doors and policing civilians. Such actions are illegal, and because the military legal system is much better than the civilian one, these hypothetical situations will never come to pass (unless YOU let it happen. See a pattern here?).


Now that's something I feel is a dangerous belief. Because there are many Executive Orders and Bi Laws which can MAKE IT LEGAL. And at that time you will only say "I was just doing my job". See THAT pattern. That's how tyrannical governments thrive.
They dupe us civilians on our end, then dupe you guys into fighting us and putting us in our place.

Do you think it can't happen here?




posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by chaxid
reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 


I am a Soldier, and let me tell ya, I'm awfully saddened by what I'm seeing in this thread.

Your anger is misguided. You should be angry at yourself for not standing up to the politicians. It is not the job of the military to police the civilian politicians, who are freely and willfully elected by the American people. In fact, we check our political views at the door once we put on the uniform. It is YOUR job to ensure the politicians are acting on YOUR behalf. The people YOU voted for in Congress authorized the use of force in Iraq and Afghanistan, on YOUR behalf. Once that happened, the argument that the wars are unconstitutional went out the window. YOU allowed it to happen so please don't blame us, because no soldier has a leg to stand on if they say the wars are unconstitutional. That's why those who try and not fight end up in jail.

YOU are responsible for the death. YOU are responsible for the mayhem. YOU failed to pressure your fellow Americans enough to get off their lazy asses and say they don't want these wars.

As an aside, I'm tired of all these damn hypothetical situations about soldiers kicking down American's doors and policing civilians. Such actions are illegal, and because the military legal system is much better than the civilian one, these hypothetical situations will never come to pass (unless YOU let it happen. See a pattern here?).


its definitly not someone elses fault if you soldiers decide to hurt people. the people doing the hurting have a choice to make, period. i chose to be a pacifist because i believe in my fellow humans.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 



And if I feel that a war(s) is illegal and for profit or based on lies, why should I support you as a facilitator of said war? Because you were just "Doing a job"?


Never recalled asking for your support or anyone's else. If you haven't figured it out by now, I'll help. Every person has an individual right to believe in whatever he or she desires. But just cause you believe in something, doesn't mean I have to go along with it and vice verse.


But you chose the job knowing full well killing and maiming would be involved?


Sure did. So why are you so concerned about the job I chose?


Wars wouldn't be possible if people didn't show up.


If you don't show up, it is only a matter of time before they come looking for you. There has been and always will be wars.


And what about the complaints I keep seeing of the stuff you saw. The blood, the death, the chaos, and how you suffered for it? You made a conscious choice to do so. Why should I feel sympathy? If a prostitute contracts Herpes, do I say,"Wow that's totally unfair to you, that shouldn't happen, I'm so sorry for your troubles"?


Let's make it clear. Don't want your support, respect, sympathy or anything else you don't care to give voluntary.

Not being rude. Just stating the truth. Because for every person like you that choose not to support the troops, there are many times that are willing, ready, and able to show their respect and then some.

I respect your decision and really wish you the best.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:01 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


All the videos I've seen of soldiers cheering and stuff while JDAM's go off, of Helicopters bombarding homes and people watching these videos as FANS of war. All the mindless fanaticism of it all, is what's really sad. Add to that the fact that NONE of these wars are even logical or necessary to begin with.

War is a MINDSET, and American culture stinks of it. And so the military culture blames civilians for perpetuating this culture?

How many military blogs do you belong to where you share all your gung ho stories of war? How many fan sites where you comment about that "cool strafing run that A-10 did on that town"? How many flags and pins do you dawn at events constantly telling everyone to "support you"?

It's like military people belong to a different country than I am in.

In 35 years of life I think I've seen enough to ask "WTF happened?"

I'm someone that actually believes in kicking ass if you're attacked. If someone hits you in the face, sock him two times. I'm definitely no pacifist, I don't believe in it as a ideology. But seriously man, WHAT THE F***??

Why is violence and the military "Hoorah" culture so dead set on acting like a cult at the expense of our country?



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:10 PM
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"If you don't show up, it is only a matter of time before they come looking for you. There has been and always will be wars."

This guy is the reason there are wars. This type of thinking is the reason for all wars. Juvenile, childish, mindless garbage. He can't even comprehend this type of thinking reciprocated creates the phenomenon of war.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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Never recalled asking for your support or anyone's else. If you haven't figured it out by now, I'll help. Every person has an individual right to believe in whatever he or she desires. But just cause you believe in something, doesn't mean I have to go along with it and vice verse.



Just sharing an idea as an anonymous person on the internet. If I thought this was a place to recruit people to my ideas, I'd be in trouble.


Sure did. So why are you so concerned about the job I chose?


Your "job" is costing us TRILLIONS, while hospitals close, Illegal Immigrants run through our cities, schools can't have books, homes foreclose, industry fails, and we import Chinese goods because we have none left.

Your "JOB" is very important to me as it is sucking the F'ing life out of us at a time where we are failing as a nation. I pay for your "job".


If you don't show up, it is only a matter of time before they come looking for you. There has been and always will be wars.


So why not just start wars with everyone since eventually they will 'all come looking for us'? There's a difference between fighting wars and CREATING wars. How in the world do you NOT get that?



[edit on 12-11-2009 by Prove_It_NOW]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Prove_It_NOW]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Prove_It_NOW]



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 



All the videos I've seen of soldiers cheering and stuff while JDAM's go off, of Helicopters bombarding homes and people watching these videos as FANS of war. All the mindless fanaticism of it all, is what's really sad.


But just like I chose my job, you choose to watch these videos. Maybe you ought to look up some videos of the enemy and see how they react when they blow away one of ours? I'm sure they aren't sitting around with a gloomy face.


Add to that the fact that NONE of these wars are even logical or necessary to begin with.


What would you have done different? How would you have gotten rid of these radicals?


How many military blogs do you belong to where you share all your gung ho stories of war? How many fan sites where you comment about that "cool strafing run that A-10 did on that town"? How many flags and pins do you dawn at events constantly telling everyone to "support you"?


ZERO. I never met a soldier or Marine yet who ask somebody to support them. I have met people who brag about their actions, but 9/10 times it turns out they weren't even in the military. How do you know these people bragging are even in the military?


Why is violence and the military "Hoorah" culture so dead set on acting like a cult at the expense of our country?


Look around you and tell me how many of those former soldiers and Marines are full of violence. Even being out of the military, we still maintain our Hoorah, but for the most part we aren't that much different than you. You call it a cult, I call it brotherhood because on that battlefield the only ones who have your back our your brothers. Doesn't matter what branch they're in.

Maybe your letting a few bad apples influence your overall view of the military.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 



Your "job" is costing us TRILLIONS, while hospitals close, Illegal Immigrants run through our cities, schools can't have books, homes foreclose, industry fails, and we import Chinese goods because we have none left.


Seems like your beef should be with Congress, not the military.


Your "JOB" is very important to me as it is sucking the F'ing life out of us at a time where we are failing as a nation. I pay for your "job".


No you don't pay for my job. The government collects about 2 trillion in taxes more or less per year. I'm sure the amount you contribute is a very very minute part of this.

Probably not even enough to cover a PFC.


So why not just start wars with everyone since eventually they will 'all come looking for us'? There's a difference between fighting wars and CREATING wars. How in the world do you NOT get that?


Created war it is then. What you don't get, created or not is that many of my fellow Americans are over there fighting for their survival. And just or unjust, I will support them in every way possible.

Like I said earlier, the problem is in Washington, not Afghanistan.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by jam321]



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
Why is violence and the military "Hoorah" culture so dead set on acting like a cult at the expense of our country?



For the Corps it's pronounced OohRah! Say it from your gut with your throat and chest flexing but that's besides the point.

You have a right to state your feelings. Be advised, many of us feel differently. There is nothing you can say or do that will ever change that.

That's our right!

[edit on 12-11-2009 by SLAYER69]



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:36 PM
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Maybe you ought to look up some videos of the enemy and see how they react when they blow away one of ours?



The enemy? Why are you there in the first place to be "blown up"? Maybe that guy you call the "enemy" is a hero to his people. It's all relative isn't it? Or are you going to deny that? He sees you as an invader by the way. You might wanna ponder that. Wait, you can't, because that would mean admitting maybe he's just like you?






What would you have done different? How would you have gotten rid of these radicals?



Radicals? Again, why are we there? I get the suspicion that you agree with these wars. I also am going to assume you believe in the whole "Osama Bin Laden"/ Taliban/War on Terror thing. So why would I even comment further on that? We may have a very fundamental disagreement that couldn't possibly be talked out.






ZERO. I never met a soldier or Marine yet who ask somebody to support them.



Hmmm, I distinctly remember seeing close to a THOUSAND yellow ribbons and similar things on cars over the years. I also distinctly remember almost EVERY soldier I've ever talked to in life having a problem with us Civies not supporting them. You must be somewhere else.






You call it a cult, I call it brotherhood because on that battlefield the only ones who have your back our your brothers. Doesn't matter what branch they're in.



The thing about cults is, the people in it hardly ever realize they're in it before it's too late. Many things these days fit the definition of 'cult'. Group think is all around us. If you truly opened your mental eyes to it's scale, you might see how big it just really is.



[edit on 12-11-2009 by Prove_It_NOW]



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
Why is violence and the military "Hoorah" culture so dead set on acting like a cult at the expense of our country?



For the Corps it's pronounced OohRah! Say it from your gut with your throat and chest flexing but that's besides the point.

You have a right to state your feelings. Be advised, many of us feel differently. There is nothing you can say or do that will ever change that.

That's our right!

[edit on 12-11-2009 by SLAYER69]


Everybody has a right. You have a right to say anything. And I support that right. I equally have a right. But it goes beyond that. There has to be a point when you question WHY you believe something. Just to say you believe something doesn't cut it, or else it's just fantasy.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 





First part I agree with. Second part is the cop out intrinsically built in to the system. You are basically run as robots. So if you happen to murder innocents by the Millions, you can say "I put my political views at the door".


I can tell you've never been in the military, else you would have recognized the absurdity of this statement. We are not robots, we simply follow the laws and the Constitution of the United States to the fullest extent. When ordered to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, those orders are lawful due to the negligence of the American people who have not said otherwise through their votes and/or 2nd Amendment rights. Why should I go to jail when your fellow Americans made the choice (and continue to stick to that choice) to go to war?

Secondly, the military has never condoned the killing of innocents. They do whatever is necessary to reduce collateral damage, even if that means more American soldiers will die as a result. We may or may not be liberators, but we certainly are not the rampaging death machine you've concocted in your imagination. The military is by and large sensitive to the rule of law, morality, ethics, and basic human rights. As always, there are exceptions to the rule, but they are few and far between. I think you will find with research that the modern American military forces are probably the most sensitive to our fellow humans than any other military that has EVER existed.



Hmmmm take jail, or poison millions with depleted uranium for the next million or so years.....hmmmm...lemme think.


I'm not going to defend the use of DU ammunition, though I don't know of anyone who is equipped with said ammo. I've never seen any, nor heard of it being used anymore. Simply put, DU is before my time so I'd be grasping at straws and catching air if I used that as an excuse not to fight. I suspect the vast majority (99.9999%) of soldiers are in the same boat.



Now that's something I feel is a dangerous belief. Because there are many Executive Orders and Bi Laws which can MAKE IT LEGAL. And at that time you will only say "I was just doing my job". See THAT pattern. That's how tyrannical governments thrive. They dupe us civilians on our end, then dupe you guys into fighting us and putting us in our place.


If you seriously believe that the military will come knocking (kicking?) on your door, then I can see why you look so poorly on those in uniform. We are your friends and neighbors, and I couldn't see any soldier I know doing such a thing. There will be a rebellion, and as a NCO, I believe such actions against our population to be detrimental to our republic. I will never allow my soldiers to follow such orders, as they violate both the letter (currently) and the spirit of the Constitution and our laws (not to mention my oath of enlistment). I am not alone in feeling this way.

We are not the brainwashed drones you think we are. We are independent, free thinking, intelligent people. We form opinions and develop flaws. Don't confuse undying loyalty to your country for the ramblings and musings of a mindless automaton.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 



We may have a very fundamental disagreement that couldn't possibly be talked out.


Reckon we do.


Hmmm, I distinctly remember seeing close to a THOUSAND yellow ribbons and similar things on cars over the years. I also distinctly remember almost EVERY soldier I've ever talked to in life having a problem with us Civies not supporting them. You must be somewhere else.


Guess you haven't talked to me. Furthermore, you got the wrong war. Our troops have been greatly supported during these wars. Your own yellow ribbon story proves it.


Many things these days fit the definition of 'cult'.


Many things fit the definition of terrorism as well. Should we just go ahead and label everybody just because they fit within a constantly expanded definition?



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
Everybody has a right. You have a right to say anything. And I support that right. I equally have a right. But it goes beyond that. There has to be a point when you question WHY you believe something. Just to say you believe something doesn't cut it, or else it's just fantasy.



That's the difference. You support our right to say anything we want. But we defend and support yours. Fantasy? In real life there is no respawn or do overs. That's Reality.

You may have issues with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fine so be it. Show some respect.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by chaxid
 



When your CULTURE decides to fight for the Constitution on ALL levels( even abroad), when you decide that Pro War hawks in office MIGHT be against your own interest and you encourage others in your groups to vote that way, when you decide to listen to the thoughts and concerns of civilians, to the point where you actually take us seriously, I will ease up on my stance.

Till then I can promise nothing.

As far as me never being in the military, yes, I've never been. Never had the want or desire since I was a kid. I thought that part was obvious.

I'm done with this subject....for now.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
Everybody has a right. You have a right to say anything. And I support that right. I equally have a right. But it goes beyond that. There has to be a point when you question WHY you believe something. Just to say you believe something doesn't cut it, or else it's just fantasy.



That's the difference. You support our right to say anything we want. But we defend and support yours. Fantasy? In real life there is no respawn or do overs. That's Reality.

You may have issues with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fine so be it. Show some respect.


No, I owe you nothing. No respect till it is earned.



posted on Nov, 13 2009 @ 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW

No, I owe you nothing. No respect till it is earned.




Not me you simpleton.
Those who have died defending your rights before you were even born.

I have not and will not ask anything of you.



posted on Nov, 13 2009 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 




When your CULTURE decides to fight for the Constitution on ALL levels( even abroad), when you decide that Pro War hawks in office MIGHT be against your own interest and you encourage others in your groups to vote that way, when you decide to listen to the thoughts and concerns of civilians, to the point where you actually take us seriously, I will ease up on my stance.


The thoughts and concerns of the civilians should be voiced to their representatives in Congress. Washington controls the military, literally. The top position in my chain of command is filled by a civilian, who is placed there either directly or as a byproduct of who the American people chose to represent us. In any event, there is not a single person in the military who can control what wars we fight any more than you can. This is by design. You should be happy you don't live in a military dictatorship and that you actually have folks like me who believe as many of your fellow Americans believed; that there was a threat to our safety some years ago that had to be taken care of. I was then, and am now, willing to give my life and shed my blood to ensure your continued safety and freedom. I didn't choose the war, the venue, the scandals, or the politics. I simply chose to fight for you and your family (as well as all others) under any circumstances. Your problem should not be with people like me. Your problem is with D.C.

You're welcome.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by chaxid]

[edit on 13-11-2009 by chaxid]



posted on Nov, 13 2009 @ 12:29 AM
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I AM complaining about the military, including the corrupt politicians responsible for the military.

Those who serve swore to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, being in Iraq goes against everything the constitution stood for and what the founding fathers stood for. They have a moral duty to stand up and deny the orders they are given, WE don't have the power to end these wars obviously, the MILITARY does, all they have to do is do what is right and STAND UP to there commanders.

I'm tired of the "they are just following orders" argument, it's bs. How many time in history have soldiers said that and it didn't cut it? It didn't cut it then and it doesn't cut it now. They can do what is right, and that's not fighting for out tyrannical government!!

What brought down tyrannical governments in the past? Losing the support of the military is what did! Learn history or your doomed to repeat it.

And like I said in another thread, I support and salute the heroes that were actually defending our country and our freedoms, but our modern wars have nothing to do with that and being on ATS as long as some of you have you should know that by now to.

Deny Ignorance.

Violating the Constitution With an Illegal War



posted on Nov, 13 2009 @ 12:49 AM
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reply to post by Uniceft17
 




Those who serve swore to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, being in Iraq goes against everything the constitution stood for and what the founding fathers stood for. They have a moral duty to stand up and deny the orders they are given, WE don't have the power to end these wars obviously, the MILITARY does, all they have to do is do what is right and STAND UP to there commanders.


It's funny how you all speak of our Constitutional obligation without mentioning your very own Constitutional obligation to STAND UP for your country when you perceive we are being wronged. Quite the double standard to expect those in the service to ruin their lives and give up their freedom even further (life prison penalty for desertion) when I've seen no convincing actions on the part of the people to undo what has been done. What else is a military person supposed to do than to presume they are acting on the behalf of the American people when the people keep voting for more of the same?

Easy to sit behind your keyboard and talk loudly. At least those in the military acted on their principles, and put their lives on the line as a result. So before I go tell my commander I refuse to deploy again, what are the people of the United States going to sacrifice? Their complacency? I doubt it, but that would be a welcome start.



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