Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by bsbray11
I didn't realize it took the "#2 man" from the FBI to come clean on what would be a very mundane political conspiracy compared to 9/11.

You miss the point. The police caught the burglars almost immediately becuase they overlooked the possibility that a security guard in the vicinity of the break in was on the ball. Someone who had intimate knowledge of what the FBI knew turned it over to reporters, who screamed the information to the public, including publishing a book

Right. So where did I miss the point again?

We are looking at the same data, but you are down-playing certain aspects of this, like what I mentioned in my last post, almost as if intentionally.

Moreover, Nixon resigned becuase he knew impeachment proceedings had started in Congress. This directly refutes the truthers' paranoid claim that the gov't can pull off their conspiracies with the perfection of a supernatural act.

1) No one is claiming conspiracies never get discovered.

2) You will notice that so-called "truthers" DO believe they have uncovered a conspiracy. It's YOU that continues to think it could never happen.

It directly refutes that insiders would never come forward to spill the beans

You can't force people to come out an "spill the beans" like it's a law of physics. Again, this was a mundane conspiracy compared to what 9/11 was. We can agree on that much. Only 1 guy wanted to come out, who knew anything, and he was so afraid even at that, that he chose to remain anonymous as he did so.

It likewise directly refutes that despite there being bad apples in the gov't, therre are also good apples who'll press for the truth, regsrdless of how ugly it is.

You mean like Sibel Edmonds? Who has been called the most gagged person in this country's history.

Nowadays, Bush can't even out a CIA agent without hordes of journalists tracing it back to him.

But they can do things like torture people to death at Gitmo and lie about it for years, and Dick Cheney had no problem lying to Congress about programs he was running with our intelligence agencies that they knew absolutely nothing about, no oversight at all. I could go on and on with things that have been exposed over the last 10 years that were being hidden, but I think the worst is still buried deep down. If you really think our government is that transparent today then I have to think you are willfully making yourself oblivious. Sibel Edmonds can't even get her case to court without it being thrown out on "state secrets" grounds. No one even knows what in the hell those grounds are, but her case is very clear in its implications of a LOT of illegal activity within the FBI.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by bsbray11]

Why is it the same bunch of posters in here always defending George Bush and Dick Cheney and 911 as if it is their religion?

I know 911 was an inside job I have seen enough evidences and watched how the government cover-up their crime. Watching the government behavior and their silences told me enough. Life experience tells me Bush and Cheney are guilty of using a small part of our government and a handful on military experts in aviation and demolition to pull off 911 and blamed it on 19 phantoms. That’s right, because we all have seen the proof, at lease seven out of 19 are walking around alive and have sued our government to clear their names furthermore, it has now been proven their identities of these hijackers were stolen identities. That’s how it was proven the FBI lied about the hijackers DNA. One lie after another, by our government tells me they are guilty.

Some of you who believe in the OS fairytale can continue to believe in your fairytale I don’t care. I don’t need to prove anything to people who have chose to be ignorant and stay ignorant. I have not seen so many people who refuse to use the resource’s of the internet to do some real research.

What do you all want? What are you expecting? Are you expecting George Bush and Dick Cheney to walk out on stage and admit they are behind 911? If you are waiting for these criminal to admit to killing three thousand innocent American citizens then you are really living in a fantasy. Because, that will never happened. They know the consequences if they are caught, are some of you people that far-gone in denial that you all have lost all train of logical thinking.

What does a lawyer always tell his clients when they know they are guilty? Come on I want some of you OS believers to answer this one question. I bet you won’t.

Originally posted by bsbray11
1) No one is claiming conspiracies never get discovered.

2) You will notice that so-called "truthers" DO believe they have uncovered a conspiracy. It's YOU that continues to think it could never happen.

1) On the contrary, the majority of truthers I've talked to are saying that very thing- that noone ever comes forward, that the media is all the slaves to the gov't, and that everyone involved in the conspiracy are as stupid as a bag of rocks and can't figure out that painting a cruise missile to look like a passenger jet is somehos connected to a terrorist attack that involved passenger jets.

2) It's not that I can't think conspiracies can't happen. I'm saying that THEIR conspiracy can't happen.

You can't force people to come out an "spill the beans" like it's a law of physics. Again, this was a mundane conspiracy compared to what 9/11 was. We can agree on that much. Only 1 guy wanted to come out, who knew anything, and he was so afraid even at that, that he chose to remain anonymous as he did so.

Then you just contradicted yorself. If someone was going to come forward over somethign so mundane as a presidential sponsored burglary, they're damned sure going to come forward over a staged terror attack that killed off 3000+ people.

You mean like Sibel Edmonds? Who has been called the most gagged person in this country's history.

The only ones who call her that are those damned fool conspiracy web sites, which I find pretty absurd since just about everythign she knows seems to be common knowledge I.E. how her boss told her to slow down her translation jobs so that he can get more money for his department's budget.

But they can do things like torture people to death at Gitmo and lie about it for years, and Dick Cheney had no problem lying to Congress about programs he was running with our intelligence agencies that they knew absolutely nothing about, no oversight at all.

...and yet it still came out in public. You're only providing matierial that proves my point and refutes yours.



[edit on 13-11-2009 by GoodOlDave]

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
1) On the contrary, the majority of truthers I've talked to are saying that very thing- that noone ever comes forward

Then you should have no problems giving me names as examples. ATS usernames, even.

2) It's not that I can't think conspiracies can't happen. I'm saying that THEIR conspiracy can't happen.

So your problem with it, is you literally think it is impossible for some part of the US military/intelligence to do the same thing 19 Arabs with nowhere near the resources accomplished?

Even as the US is known to have ties with the same kinds of people, to have trained and funded them in the past, and even declared OBL a hero in the war against the Soviets.

Then you just contradicted yorself. If someone was going to come forward over somethign so mundane as a presidential sponsored burglary, they're damned sure going to come forward over a staged terror attack that killed off 3000+ people.

That would be the moral thing to do, but it could also be stupid depending on who you are, what you know, and what your role was. In fact you would stand a good chance of being killed immediately after the attacks were over imo. At least that's how I would see the most effective "damage control."

You mean like Sibel Edmonds? Who has been called the most gagged person in this country's history.

The only ones who call her that are those damned fool conspiracy web sites

Actually it was the ACLU. Now comes the right-wing brand of mouth-frothing, right?

which I find pretty absurd since just about everythign she knows seems to be common knowledge I.E. how her boss told her to slow down her translation jobs so that he can get more money for his department's budget.

That is not at all what her case is about. Look it up. There are implications of everything from intentionally misdirecting agents in the field, to turning blind eyes to drug smuggling, all kinds of corruption.

...and yet it still came out in public.

Yeah, years later. And that stuff, again, nothing compared to 9/11.

You're only providing matierial that proves my point and refutes yours.

If your point is that things are held from the public for years by government officials, then we are in agreement anyway.

In the meantime, when I see when the gov't can't even hand out bottles of water to hurricane victims in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels, I'll stick with the theory that the gov't is too incompetent to pull off any such thing.

I would say it takes a good deal of incompetence to think that all levels and departments of the government are of the same quality of expertise and capability. Comparing such FEMA services to our elite military and intelligence units is asinine, apples and oranges. One has trillions of dollars poured into it, the other is lucky to even get what it needs to do its job.

NIST determining that the WTC towers and WTC7 were brought down with the help of explosives somehow.
Boeing coming forward to make public that it didn´t accept the OS.
American Airlines saying same thing.
United Airlines also.
A few thousand engineers, not a few hundred.
A few thousand pilots, not a couple hundred.
A few thousand 9/11 relatives, not a few hundred.
A few thousand military and service personnel.
A few hundred (or maybe just a few individuals) FBI, CIA, agents coming forward to confess, or secretly opening up to big papers like NYT, Wash. post.
Letters, e-mails by the demolition experts delivered to MSM.
Confessions by the perpetrators.
Money transfers or deposits to accounts of those behind it, discovered by private investigators and made public.
Recorded conversations by the perps. before and after, living no doubt that they were not doctored (this would be very hard though).



[edit on 13-11-2009 by rush969]

Originally posted by impressme

Keep believing in fairytales it is safe that way, and do not question your government.

It's quite clear that you "Truthers" haven't given us any reason to believe your fairy tales, but we will keep asking you questions until you either produce evidence for your fairy tales or realize that you've been deluding yourselves for all these years. That's the least we can do to help you out of your persistent and unfortunate denial.

ETA: You should read your own sig. You're still in stage 1. I hate to see what will happen when you reach stage 2.


[edit on 13-11-2009 by jthomas]

Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by impressme

Keep believing in fairytales it is safe that way, and do not question your government.

It's quite clear that you "Truthers" haven't given us any reason to believe your fairy tales, but we will keep asking you questions until you either produce evidence for your fairy tales or realize that you've been deluding yourselves for all these years. That's the least we can do to help you out of your persistent and unfortunate denial.

ETA: You should read your own sig. You're still in stage 1. I hate to see what will happen when you reach stage 2.


[edit on 13-11-2009 by jthomas]

Please answer the OP and keep the litter in the garbage can. Thank you!

Originally posted by rush969
A few thousand engineers, not a few hundred.
A few thousand pilots, not a couple hundred.
A few thousand 9/11 relatives, not a few hundred.
A few thousand military and service personnel.

I remember when "skeptics" used to ask for ANY professional engineers to come forward and associate their name with 9/11 being an inside job.

If and when we make it to a number in the thousands, I have a feeling the goal is just going to be pushed back farther again.

Can you demonstrate a quantifiable relationship between the number of engineers saying something vs. how much credibility they have? Because it seems to me that numbers of people have absolutely nothing to do with the objective validity of any statement.

Besides that you are pretty much asking for people to come forward that may or may not have known anything to begin with. The airlines, for example. They were confused as hell by the war games already, no need to demand their cooperation. There is already an FBI whistleblower named Sibel Edmonds who the ACLU has called the most gagged person in this country's history, and the fact that she has been gagged and her case barred from court by John Ashcroft is on record, and it implicated real names in intentionally misdirecting agents in the field prior to 9/11. Which implies higher-ups knowing something. Ex-CIA Rob McGovern has come out, too, though he doesn't claim having anything to do with it himself. Not to mention a number of other military veterans and other ex-government employees from various positions and branches. One of Bush's cabinet came out saying he didn't buy the official story and so did Bush's speech writer.

I watched the video of the incident ,when that building was dropped,looked like a text book demolition,I never once believed that those jets had any impact on them other then damage sustained by the initial impact,what a joke,real easy to prove,find a jet of same specifications,crash it into a soon to be demolished building,of even half the size or half the sesmic specs,and see what happens,and at the end of said test,they will be a burnt out hulk of an airliner,building intact,that whole scenario was in insult to my intelligence,as I've said hundreds of times that was a controlled demolition,textbook thermite set at all main supporting members,remember when you build a high rise you must design it to come back down,I would say this is my opinion but I can't think of one of the explanations that make any sense

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Deep Throat (who turned out to be the #2 man in the FBI) they ain't.

I have always wondered why it took "Deep Throat" over 30 years and to be on his deathbed to actually admit he was DT. I mean, you have to be pretty powerful to be #2 in the FBI but yet still scared to say you were the one to "out" NIxon even 20-25 years later? I wonder why?

[edit on 14-11-2009 by Nutter]

Originally posted by impressme
As the list of experts grow daily it would never be enough for people who are in denial.

I believe the numbers grew at a certain time but now are actually diminishing. (Only my personal opinion though.)

You want bush and Cheney to confess. That will be the day. You are asking for evidences that any criminal in the right mind would have destroyed. You are asking for records that will prosecute the criminals. That’s not going to happened. I guess you don’t think criminals will go though great lengths to cover- up their tracks, they had eight years to do it.

I´m not asking for anything. I´m just answering the question.



[edit on 14-11-2009 by rush969]