The REAL Swine Flu Conspiracy

I'll try and explain this for the non extremists of ATS...

Dr Nimans predictive system told him a pandemic was coming starting back in 2003 I believe, maybe a bit earlier.

He was seeing recombinations of strains that included avian flu and a number of swine flu.

He had to make the call at some point which way things would go. At this time, the mainstream medical profession was slamming him left and right for even predicting the pandemic was near.

He started to see adaption in H5N1 which would make it able to transfer between humans and there were outbreaks occurring of human H5N1 (bird flu) infection. There were no outbreaks of swine flu so he decided the run up he was seeing was probably going to be a bird flu pandemic.

Bird flu has a 70 percent fatality rate so he put out the warning and no one listened. No panic, no govt money spent, nothing. He was laughed at.

Eventually the recombinations resulted in the swine flu we know and love today. Dr Niman was once again the only researcher out there telling people it was coming (this is quite a while after the bird flu pandemic failed to arrive).

He was right and hopefully he's adjusted his system and learned from it.

The anti vaccine crowd demonizes Niman for being pro vaccine and call him a biased "insider" while the mainstream medical and pharma people blow him off as some kind of "nut" for daring to have a new theory about virus evolution.

So, no we didn't get a bird flu pandemic, thank God but had they listened even the small outbreaks around the World could have been prevented as well as future ones, possibly even an actual pandemic.

Had they listened they could have stopped the current pandemic before it even began. As you'll come to see, anyone who isn't 100 percent on board with the anti vaccine crew will be attacked, accused of having an "agenda" and so on.

Now, I'm not aware of any payola for pushing vaccines except for maybe the illegal drug rep to Dr kick backs but if there is indeed such a program please let me know. I'd like to see how much I could have been making...

NWO doesn't really want us to take the vaccine... unless we really really want it and are trully obeyant sheeple. double-side psyop... 'take the vaccine' from official mouths... 'don't take the vaccine' from psyopped conspiracy loonies... and the truth is in the middle.

i would rather assume that NWO would pay people for pushing the anti-vaccine agenda. that would make PERFECT sense.

If they wanted people to take it they would have it to take. There is no artificial shortage, they really are not letting people have it unless you are in the highest risk groups.

This issue is just polluted with the anti vaccine agenda. I'm not "wild" about them myself but looking around the net all I see are the members of that group attacking anyone as a "shill" or as being "paid off disinfo agents" if they don't absolutely agree with their agenda.

I checked out their claims and unfortunately they have a lot of disinfo in thier program. I refuse to support any movement which uses lies.

they're talking all the time how we can all send NWO straight into hell if we'll unite and cooperate, still, they aren't too cooperative if someone has even a little bit different opinion. sad thing.

For all of you who follow labvirus . com, I just want to tell you a little story.
Yesterday, they posted a video of some guy talk about DUMBS (Deep Underground Military Bases). Basically, this guy mentioned that it's a plague (I believe he said pneumonic) in the Ukraine, that the DUMBs in the USA have more activity than normal going on (which he said was the case around 9/11) and he then went into the RFID chip. He said the purpose of the plague was to wipe all of us out.
So, I pointed out a couple of things on the comment section:
1. If it were the plague the fatality rate would be WAY, WAY higher. Possibly into the 100s of 1000s, definitely into the 10s of 1000s.
2. If they want to kill us all with the plague, why do they need the RFID chip at all. Seems kind of unnecessary to tag a corpse...

Anyway, I've left a couple of comments there before. When I woke up this morning, the comments above were removed.
My point of relaying this tale is that it seems to me that A LOT of people have an agenda. Don't buy into everything you read. If these guys thought I was wrong and had a reason for it, they could have just replied to my comment. They did not.
Keep a level head when reading or listening to MSM and Alternative Media.

This has been a public service announcement from the LevelHeaded Conspiracy Theorists Union.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 19-11-2009 by really]

I sat back once upon a time and watched this same thing happen to the 9/11 truth movement. A lot of good evidence and in depth investigations were just run over by the groups who went straight for the farthest edge.

The one problem with going to extremes is that it completely turns people off to your position. It leaves you wide open to attack and negates your good points by tainting them with the bad.

The people running around the web, adding comments to all the medical blogs and websites accusing everyone of being paid off pharma shills (they must have a ton of money to pay so many people off) just comes across in a very negative way.

Then again, I think that's the whole idea. Infiltrate and discredit from within. They did it with 9/11 truth and they're doing it with this issue as well. I've seen a lot of evidence that points to Jane BurgerBilder as being one of these "infiltrators".

[edit on 19-11-2009 by ecoparity]

just found same report about thousands dead on the streets in ukraine on polish blog, they're also saying that it's probably a disinfo. seems to me that that information comes from one and same source. i repeat, FROM SAME SOURCE. polish blog has the info from same source as Jane Burgermeister. and what's the difference?

Jane's site: 'A Ukrainian woman who crossed into neighbouring Poland told people there that she had driven into the Ukraine to meet a friend but was stopped about 60 km from the border and told that parts of the Western Ukraine were closed at a distance of about 100 kilometers from the border with Poland.'

polish blog: 'Driving there she stopped 60 km from the border and started talking with locals. They, very excited, advised her that she shouldn't go further because there's a "plague".'

there's a subtle difference between being stopped and stopping on your own, between being told that parts of ukraine are closed and being told that parts of ukraine are full of dead people and ADVISED that you shouldn't go there, isn't it?

Jane's site: 'The woman said the people had died as a result of vaccinations. The vaccines allegedly came from France.'
polish blog: 'They are supposed to be victims of some untested vaccine, that was being applicated there.'

'supposed'
'some'

obviously, such report didn't fit Jane's point of view. really, follow her site, but with HUGE dose of scepticism. i saw more, much more than once, how she bends the facts. i've exchanged few emails with her, she's also often posting some news about poland recently, news that i can verify by reading the source post/article and see if those match. and guess what. it stinks terribly.

[edit]
'bend the facts' - those aren't facts in my opinion, but still. she's changing one disinfo into even bigger disinfo for the sole purpose of fearmongering. check her article about WHO claiming that there's no mutation in H1N1. WHO says clearly, no big mutation. also, they say NOTHING about increased or not virulence of new H1N1 strain. Jane automatically assumed it means new virus is mild and that it has to be some pneumonic plague then. later she posted another info, after i've contacted her about it.

theflucase.com... 3Ahighlighted-news&Itemid=105&lang=en
theflucase.com... &Itemid=105&lang=en

compare for yourself.

she should title that 'Did Jane told the truth about WHO report?', because WHO, as can be seen via following a link in her own post, nowhere claimed it's mild. yet, 'WHO says swine flu has not mutated in the Ukraine: No killer virus' - who is she to say such things? WHO spokeperson? they DIDN'T say that. at least not in the small note she links to.

[edit again]
in case of her source email from poland, noone knows. it may be Jane bending it as well as a bad translation. the fact is, i saw the info in polish and it has a different feeling. and a feeling when one presents such information is everything - people don't care about 'unverified' - they just get scared.

also, Jane doesn't mention that there are webcams in some of those cities and everything looks fine, people are walking on the streets like nothing happened. at least according to that polish blog.

[edit on 19-11-2009 by jedi_hamster]

Ok, Eco. I have to confess to intentionally pushing your buttons. I'll explain why. There's a moral to the story.

In the large thread you had positioned yourself as somewhat of an expert. A virtual mouthpiece For Dr Niman. You consistently accused every other theory and it's proponents of a money making agenda. And you are still doing it. Frankly I took it upon myself to show that you are likewise guilty also of pandering to a profiteer. Which I don't think you were even aware of.

I was being overly harsh on him. I knew you were going to attack Horowitz. The debate was gold! You see it's not hard to manipulate. The social engineers are much better than me.

Now here's the thing, I don't care if someone is making profits, except when it becomes obscene like that of big pharma.

Horowitz actually admits it. I know he is over zealous, jumps to conclusions, is pushing his books and oxy silver. I know he is a shameless self promoter. But he has areas of expertise that are outside of Niman scope of knowledge. If you followed some of his leads at the very least you'd find in many cases there is some truth which you wouldn't have found otherwise. In that way he has value.

Nimans not filthy rich. He's an attention seeker and a extremest as well. Which I have proven. He has conflicts of interest in some areas in regard to the pharma buis. The sad truth is, anyone in this position is prone to a conflict of interest particularly when it concerns his livelihood. This is the source of much of the conspiracy, the glue.
BUT in fact he has done a good job in updating us on the sequences. He has specialized areas of expertise no doubt. In that way he has value.
I even posted one of his reports as evidence to support what I was saying. Yes I am a stinker

So are they really that different? They are just opposites sides of the coin. Is the comparison not the truth? If you can't see it then I give up and I have failed.

You constantly make enormous leaps of logic when you find one piece that doesn't fit and then hastily cast the whole lot away.
This makes you gullible and easy to manipulate. I'm sorry.
It's because you are trying to force things into your world view. We are all guilty of it.

You see it's called critical thinking. I attacked him, and you attacked me. As expected.

As for threatening me with the alert button.
You asked me to post here remember. You even made an introductory post for your hero and were explicitly referring to me when you posted it. Don't pretend it was otherwise.
I've treated you with as much respect as you have given me. I did not attack you. I attacked Niman, and you took it personally. Get over it.

I also will also address the virology issues you brought up. (Now we are getting somewhere.) This is what I wanted to talk about. You may be surprised.



[edit on 20-11-2009 by squiz]

we are just more critical in the way we accept facts i guess... most people from anti-vaccine movement are trying to put everything that even remotely fits their theory, into it. why? because they cannot prove it, so they prefer to have as much arguments as possible, because noone will be able to check all of them then. on the contrary, we're trying to focus on facts, and when that fails because of lack of documentation, on logic, like 'what would i do in this situation if i would be NWO'. we don't need excessive amount of BS to backup this theory, simply because this theory is not based on BS.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by jedi_hamster]

You come across as being part of the no vaccines agenda and I'm quickly learning there is no reasoning with the likes of you. You will accept any tripe, regardless of accuracy or quality of the source so long as it supports that agenda.
This is why you ignore the fact that the Baxter incident is not what it has been exploited to be and that there is absolutely no credible evidence for a bio weapon virus or bio weapon vaccine

You're presenting arguments from people who profit from the anti vaccine agenda and the sale of alternate medicines who then accuse people like Dr Niman of being biased because his patents are used by pharma companies.
I'm discovering that you don't see the hypocrisy in that.

This "thing" some of the people in your anti vaccine club have about attacking anyone who doesn't completely agree with you like rabid dogs is not attractive. Extremism is not something I have any interest in engaging with. There's no point in it, you are not open to any evidence that does not confirm your predetermined point of view.

Exhibit A.

Nasty stuff, perhaps I should be pushing the alert button.

And you do not see the hypocrisy at this point?

I'm not part of any "crowd". Your attempt to associate me with some group constantly that I'm not even aware of is a logical fallacy. And a very transparent debate strategy, get a new one.

I'm open to evidence, it's just you don't present any. And evidence for what exactly?

Another thing, there is no justification for the release of live bird flu in any form. This nonsense is ambiguous and defies common sense. It's not meant to be out of a lab you know!!! Nimans attitude towards this is telling. He wants a piece of the vaccination pie. How could he possibly even consider upsetting the big boys. Now tell me what is his justification for the INTENTIONAL infection of thousands with the AIDS virus?

I don't really care that he is associated with pharma companies

BINGO!

reply to post by jedi_hamster


I'm sorry dude I don't even know who is in the anti vaccine crowd. There's that logical fallacy again.

You haven't got a clue what I stand for or why. What are you the side kick or something?

The pharma companies could have added the H1N1 component to seasonal flu vaccines 2 years ago and people would still be alive who are dead now.

Can you prove that? Otherwise it's a matter of faith isn't it? If they didn't vaccinate at all we'd see much less disease and chronic illness. I formulated this opinion from looking at historical past mass vaccinations and the history up until today. As well as a modest research into the science. Do you really want to go down that path?

So because a dentist claims the swine flu has 1918 flu sequences in it all the virologists who say otherwise are lying?

Our study clearly suggests that strong purifying selection is responsible for the evolution of the novel influenza A (H1N1) virus among human. We [observed that the 2009 viral sequences are evolutionarily widely different form the past few years’ sequences. Rather, the 2009 sequences are evolutionarily more similar to the most ancient sequence reported in the NCBI Influenza Virus Resource Database collected in 1918.

Evolutionary complexities of swine flu H1N1 gene sequences of 2009

Oh oh! independent researchers not from the U.S. These guys actually do experiments and publish scientific papers.

All you say? not true. There's actually a number of them, small as it may be. But silence is not reason to believe all virologists think as you do.

This was written by a team of virologists. Now, you said it was similar to recent strains did you not? more to come on that one.

Isn't strange it's replicated only a few short years ago. And now we have something that resembles it running loose. Nah!

Seems like Len was actually closer to the truth on this aspect. He can do my teeth anytime.

as for me, you're still being extreme by mixing two sides of one coin. virus is one thing, vaccine is another. i would say it's possible what Niman says, that such mixture is possible to occur naturally - AFTER ALL IT DID, IN 1918. but right now, in my opinion, it's being released artificially via chemtrails - they've recovered original strain from 1918, released mild version in mexico to test it's spread, then released closer to original version in ukraine to test how deadly it is, and now they're releasing it everywhere.

then again, think twice about all this, and read my previous posts in this thread. i'm not going to take the vaccine, even if they would offer me one without squalene and mercury, for free. but at the same time, i don't think it contains bioweapon. nanochip - maybe. bioweapon - i don't think so. H1N1 is deadly enough, they're just underreporting it to prevent panic, and to keep false informations spreading, till it'll be too late.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by jedi_hamster]

Go to GISAID and register for an account. Then download the 1918 data and the 2009 data. Grab one of the free folding programs and go see for yourself.
Even easier, just google the genetic composition of each virus and go see how "identical" they are.

Apart from not having the qualifications for that. Tell me Eco do you think you can make a qualified call in that regard? Quite frankly I don't have too, I just look for scientists who already have. As you can see below, he did exactly that.

Every component of the current swine flu can be traced to have been in circulation in pigs, birds and people prior to 2009. Early on in this pandemic it was not known that 2 of the components had been in circulation and that led to some people making a bad assumption about a lab origin.

Now (in Eco's similiar fashion) let's meet another man. Let me introduce you to professor Adrian Gibbs according to him what you attempted to describe is simplistic and disingenuous at best. Copied right out of one of Henry's posts I bet.

Gibbs is a veteran in the science with a mountain of publications beneath him and dare I say it but just tad more qualified than you know who. There I go appealing to authority. See we all have our ills Eco.
He was not alone in this assessment.

Nice and simple in video format.



Well they are not so identical are they? In fact it's quite peculiar isn't it? All of the genes have been accelerated? what are the odds?
So it's not every virologist is it? Your appeal to consensus is another logical fallacy.

It definitely got the WHO's attention, there has never been a decent refutation of this. Just an ambiguous dismissal. They are not even smart enough to come up with a good excuse.

Now this is another aspect of what good science is supposed to be, This is a valid theory. And we know it has happened in the past. Duh!

To cast it aside as the WHO did is disingenuous science at the very least. And goes against the scientific methodology.

Combine this with the fact that it has not been found in any pig population anywhere until after the fact.

You then have a stronger competitive theory. Where are the culled pigs? They must still be out there?

It's scientifically dishonest to dismiss this. When there is absolutely Zip evidence for a confirmed transmission from pigs. Professor Gibbs is honest, he says it's a possibility, more likely he doesn't want to step on his old masters toes.

He also says It's the most logical explanation, as all of those problems disappear in light of the theory.



[edit on 20-11-2009 by squiz]

reply to post by jedi_hamster


Well I'm sorry I miss judged you. My apologies.
All I stand against on this issue is the quick dismissal of things.
An open mind to consider some things that are difficult to comprehend. Not to believe every little thing of course but not to forget either or throw the baby out with the bathwater as they say.

The origin is the key issue I believe, the smoking gun. We can't brush it off. That's dangerous.

None of the rest is directed at you jedi, just rambling. It's just talk.

Vaccination and Tamiflu cannot be the only way. In fact there are small signs of resistance for tamiflu appearing.
All my alarm bells go off when I see the hype and hysterical promotion of the vaccine. WARNING PEOPLE.

Studies have shown vaccination can mutate a wild virus that becomes capable of entering deeper into the lungs. This was one of the experiments used to examine the lethality of the 1918 strain.
Double Blow Virus. My dissing of the vaccination procedure was to highlight this.

I found something very interesting. A potential cure from another great scientist as well as for anthrax. Had to edit to say he has a 100% success rate for anthrax cure!! Could the timing be a coincidence? The ramifications are immense. See my sig. I'm excited!

It sounds like another one of those crack pot claims until you realize who's responsible. I wouldn't put it past him.

Anyway, let's cool it hey. I have some more stuff somewhere. But I won't post, if no ones interested.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by squiz]

reply to post by squiz


go ahead and post everything you have. this thread is for discussion, not for wars. we can continue the 'war' about who's wrong and who's right, or we may just cooperate. i don't think eco will attack your claims as long as you're not attacking his. everyone has the right to have own opinion.

my five cents to your posts is this: think about what i've said in previous posts, those about NWO showing their true face on purpose. also, check the other (big) thread, my last post. if i'm correct... there may be plenty of false info out there. from so called whistle blowers, from scientists, from everyone. think, does it matter if the currently spreading H1N1 is taken directly from 1918, or is some natural recombination, maybe accelerated in a lab? does it make any difference? yes and no. no, because people will be dead one way or another. yes, because it changes the way we perceive NWO actions, and in many cases, adds fuel to anti-vaccine propaganda, which is exactly what NWO wants.

they are good at this. they're planning such things many many years ahead. do you really think they would allow so much information to leak out, if it wouldn't be on purpose?

Thanks man, Getting late here. I'll dig up what I can. Weekend time though.

In the mean time check out this. I just posted a thread about the potential cure, not just for the flu either.

Seriously, this could be big!

Like I said, I wouldn't put it past him. He Actually has a 100% success rate for an Anthrax cure!

Karry Mullis' Next-Gen Cure for Infection



[edit on 20-11-2009 by squiz]

Thanks for making this thread. You do make some very valid points and think your argument is logical and well made-out. I really appreciate the answers that were given from such an array of perspectives.

My opinion on the matter:

I think there could be a tipple conspiracy at work here. I am not quite sure how to put it into words, but a part of me just feels this way. It almost seems like we are all - except for an elite few - being led on wild goose chase. It is a big distraction. Misdirection. They want people focussing on this. Where don't they want people looking?

reply to post by Dark Ghost


that we're far more than bones and flesh. we're beings of light, and we can't really die, it's only a temporary termination of our existence in this 3D world. they want us to fear. to fear the death.

in the day humanity will realize who we really are, and what we can do, NWO will matter as much as a fly on elephant's back.

[edit]
it's one of their biggest secrets... that they feed from fear, and death is their sacrifice.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by jedi_hamster]

I can't respond to 5 or 6 posts at a time so I'll try to focus on the critical points.

People keep accusing Niman of profiting from vaccines or even having his own vaccine company. Neither of those are true. AFAIK none of the pharma companies are using his patent in the development of vaccines.

As I've stated numerous times, I don't agree with Niman on every point -but- I'm in the position of having some excellent sources who I cannot attribute information to because they are not publishing in public. What I can do is find someone like Niman or others who has those same conclusions and attribute to them.

I'm in a bad position because of that at times. I do feel people are making false accusations against him. I need a virologist who is willing to analyze sequences, publish the results quickly and do it publicly. Niman meets those requirements. Having followed his work for the past 5 years I also believe his theory on viral evolution is correct and that he won't be appreciated until long after he's dead.

Yes, if the vaccine companies were using his patent they could have prevented this pandemic and quite a few of the avian flu outbreaks that have occurred. Seasonal flu shots are all about predicting what strains of flu will come next and he HAS been able to do that, he just picked the wrong one for the pandemic. Then again, this virus could mutate tomorrow and we would be facing that bird flu pandemic with no vaccine prepared.

Given the difference in clinical fatality rates, if that mutation were to occur having the avian flu vaccine ready would be better. The coolest thing about recombinomics is the fact that we could have had a vaccine ready for both.

I posted about Gibb's paper back when it first came out. That's from back in May. Like I said, there were two strains he did not know were already in circulation in pigs (found in test samples form N Carolina, I believe). It was this missing data which led him to his conclusion. Send him an email and see where he stands now, he pulled his paper from publication in the journals once the information came out about the missing strains.

At the time, I supported his claims also because my private sources were also coming to that conclusion. If you want more detail on the missing strain issue let me know and I'll ask about it.

I don't present myself as an expert at all. I present myself as having taken the time and effort to check into things for myself and having consulted the real experts.

I don't think anyone can argue the fact that people are simply reading the blogs and taking what they say as gospel without doing any research of their own.

The blogs, for their part are just reporting what other blogs and non qualified sources are claiming without doing any research of their own as well.

This is a recipe for disaster and bad information. It's almost a daily event for someone to email Jane Burgermeister a fairy tale and have that story make the rounds of all those blogs and forums as a fact within a few hours.

Come to think of it, this is something that could be easily proven. Anyone game for a little experiment?

[edit on 20-11-2009 by ecoparity]